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Mexcan

Dec 28, 2005, 4:39 PM

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Treating Veggies and Fruit

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When we were in Mexico recently, we were advise to treat all fruits and vegetables with micodyn.
Can anyone tell me why this is necessary in Mexico? I am particularly puzzled why this procedure also applies to fruits that grow on trees.



Anonimo


Dec 28, 2005, 5:07 PM

Post #2 of 46 (2912 views)

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Re: [Mexcan] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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Our well-educated, health conscious Mexican friends here in the DF merely wash fruits and vegetables under filtered, purified water. But perhaps their systems are acclimatized to micro-life that our systems may not be. Sometimes, "gray water" is used for irrigation, or so I understand. So, generally, we dip fruits and vegetables in a weak solution of Microdyn for about 3 minutes. I think that the recommmended 12-15 minutes is overkill.

Fruits from trees may not come in contact with the soil at the orchard, but they also may pass through many hands enroute to the market or supermarket. So, it's not a bad idea to disinfect them.

Items that are especially good candidates for disinfecting are root vegs, leafy greens to be served raw, such as lettuce, and berries, especially strawberries.
All generalities are suspect, including this one.

Saludos,
Anonimo


Cynthia7

Dec 28, 2005, 5:45 PM

Post #3 of 46 (2903 views)

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Re: [Anonimo] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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It is now being recommended to disinfect fruits and vegetables in the US. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal a week or so ago that because produce comes from many lands and is handled by many hands that stomach problems, worms and amoebas were a problem in the US. We use clorox..cheap, effective and available.


Bubba

Dec 28, 2005, 6:09 PM

Post #4 of 46 (2898 views)

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Re: [Cynthia7] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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I agree with Cynthia. The question is not whether or not we should disinfect veggies and fruits in Mexico but why we were so foolish as to not have done so in the U.S. and anywhere else in the world. The sickest I have ever been from food poisoning was from eating a tomato in Nice, France straight from the vendor in an apparently immaculate market.

I really don't understand why Anonimo refuses to disinfect his produce the recommended 12 minutes or more and suggest that a couple of minutes is a waste of time. I don't know what is happening in Patzcuaro that has him so pressed for time but I will tell you that, here in Ajijic, we have 12 minutes to spare. Hell, we have 12 hours to spare and, hopefully 12 years to spare.

This reminds me that there have been many warnings that the worst innovation in years in personal hygiene has been the proliferation of "antibacterial" hand soaps which are apparently useless unless applied to one's hands and left there for about 15 minutes before rinsing. According to doctors I have read, it is better to scrub your hands carefully and thoroughly with ordinary hand soap than resort to a quick and careless application of antibacterial hand soap which is ineffectual in killing bacteria.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Dec 28, 2005, 6:13 PM)


jennifer rose

Dec 28, 2005, 6:18 PM

Post #5 of 46 (2889 views)

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Re: [Anonimo] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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I merely rinse produce in the filtered water that comes from my tap (I have a whole-house purification system). If it's something buggy, like squash flowers, then I might soak them in salt water for a few minutes. And I haven't died yet.

I've seen folks go overboard with soaking in Microdyn and other solutions. One poor soul insisted that bananas, pineapples and watermelons be soaked. Hello?


manda405


Dec 28, 2005, 6:25 PM

Post #6 of 46 (2885 views)

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Re: [Anonimo] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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I am less worried about the produce from the market that I wash with soap and tap water, than I am about the tacos from the street vendor.


What happens down in Mexico...Stays in Mexico.


Rolly


Dec 28, 2005, 6:53 PM

Post #7 of 46 (2875 views)

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Re: [Mexcan] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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I guess one of these days I gonna wake up dead because I never wash anything. I have never been sick from my unhygienic habits. I also eat from street vendors.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook


Esteban

Dec 28, 2005, 9:33 PM

Post #8 of 46 (2852 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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I've been eating from street vendors, along with thousands of others, for at least six years. Never had the parasitios. I do wash my veggies, just like when I lived up north, in purified water. One must also remember to wash ones hands. A neighbor friend went to the dentist the other day. His dentist wore the latex gloves but then answered the phone with the gloves on and took some money from his secretary with them on. He about flipped. When he returned home he asked his Mexican wife what's up with all that. She said the dentist was wearing the gloves for HIS protection.


Camille

Dec 28, 2005, 11:11 PM

Post #9 of 46 (2838 views)

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Re: [Esteban] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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OOOOOHHHH!!!! DYING to have some dental work done by THIS guy!!! There are good dentists to be found, it just takes some exploration....


Anonimo


Dec 29, 2005, 2:08 AM

Post #10 of 46 (2835 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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Three or 4 minutes seems to do the job, so I see no need to soak the vegs longer.
Sometimes, I just want those radishes now.

We each ate a tomato yesterday, merely rinsed off under the unfiltered tap, and we are still kicking here in Mexico City.
But, then, I've been rinsing out my toothbrush under the tap with no problems.
All generalities are suspect, including this one.

Saludos,
Anonimo


Bubba

Dec 29, 2005, 8:36 AM

Post #11 of 46 (2792 views)

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Re: [Anonimo] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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Anonimo:

Please send me the name of your outstanding opthamologist. I, too would like to be able to watch bacteria die so I need wait no longer than necessary to eat that radish.


jacpowell

Dec 29, 2005, 1:13 PM

Post #12 of 46 (2750 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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We just got back from consulting with our NOB doctor regarding what kinds of immunizations we need for this year's trip. We went to the Center for Disease Control site and it will scare the daylights out of you! May as well stay home... So, since we already have most of the stuff (Hepatitis A & B, tetanus, diptheria, flu, pneumonia) all that's left that seems essential is typhoid and malaria. We are debating the malaria for only two weeks in Chiapas, but since the typhoid protection lasts 5 years we'll go for it. Unfortunately, we have to drive two hours to Colorado Springs to find a clinic to get the pills. And you think you're isolated.

My brother-in-law was in Oaxaca City about 30 years ago, and he had typhoid or typhus, and he said it wasn't fun. I never realized that typhoid is a form of salmonella! I wonder if those of you who have never been sick not only have developed a tolerance for Mexican bugs, but also whether you had typhoid immunization, too. I've only had problems once - in Merida - but I've been relatively careful. However, I don't panic when I realize that out of habit I've just rinsed my toothbrush under the tap. Ignorance is bliss!

By the way, Bubba, I'm on my way next week to a New Years Day black-eyed pea party in Carbondale, Colorado, downriver a number of miles and many millions of dollars from Aspen. I asked our host if there would be the obligatory hog jowl, or at minimum some fatback or sow belly, to complete the dish, but have had no response. They said "come feeling southern" (not even capitalizing the "s") but since I are one it won't be a problem.


caldwelld


Dec 30, 2005, 2:05 PM

Post #13 of 46 (2669 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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For what it is worth my theory is that a few bacteria are rather good for you and necessary to get along in the world; that one of the reasons some people are affected by bacteria more often now days has to do with anti bacteria paranoia leading to overly clean environments causing us to lose our natural ability to fight otherwise quite harmless bugs; that most stomach related bug problems (amoeba, parasites, e-coli, etc) are either vacinatable or quickly and effectively treatable now days; that proof is in the fact that 110 million Mexicans mostly get by without being overprecautious in this regard; and that most farmers worth their salt now days won't let more than one hand touch their produce but one time thus reducing considerably the chance of contamination. Ergo --- I rinse fruit and veg that I can't peel in the tap water. Of course I expect to die any day now.
dondon


Gringal

Dec 30, 2005, 2:26 PM

Post #14 of 46 (2663 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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I must take partial issue with your position because of the history of the changes in death rates after sterilization practices were introduced into the world's hospitals and clinics. On the other hand, you have a valid point about being overly cautious, as illustrated in the following ditty: "the babe lies at my feet on a sterilized sheet, cutting teeth on the tip of my shoe."

I dump the veggies into Microdyned water and leave them for 15 minutes before draining them. I have the time, and it can't hurt.


ncferret

Dec 30, 2005, 3:46 PM

Post #15 of 46 (2645 views)

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Re: [Mexcan] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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All the answers to this important question are right here:

http://www.maztravel.com/kwiki/index.cgi?FoodSafety

An extensive review of the best available information was done by restaurant professionals. If you have any additional information to add to this source, please let me know.


caldwelld


Dec 31, 2005, 10:33 AM

Post #16 of 46 (2582 views)

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Re: [ncferret] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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Thanks for the link. I have watched these facts go by thru the regular print media over the last few years. My theory was loosely based on them. I feel entirely vindicated.

By the way, wrt another comment by Gringal I think, reduction in problems in hospitals thru care and disinfection has more to do with the presence of a lot of nasty germs in those environments and the likelihood of transfer by staff and utensils visiting multiple patients. The average fruit/veg basket is rather different I would submit in part due to what I said about the reduced amount of handling that actually occurs now days from farm to market.
dondon


Bloviator

Dec 31, 2005, 5:06 PM

Post #17 of 46 (2544 views)

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Re: [jacpowell] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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Just got back from a driving trip across Mexico. If I quit posting in a week or two, you can assume that I died of some loathsome tropical disease encountered in the Yucatan. Took normal precautions just as I do NoB.

We do not buy from street vendors. Otherwise, we eat just about anything that comes our way and don't worry too much.

Is it my imagination or does treating the fruits and vegetables shorten their life and make them wilt and be inedible withing a couple of days?


zoeq1000


Jan 1, 2006, 4:15 AM

Post #18 of 46 (2524 views)

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Re: [Camille] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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Hi Camille, For dental work, there is a fine dentist here in Queretaro, a Dr. Reyes in the Queretaro Clinic with Dr. Kitty Delano. My husband said he is as good as the excellent one we had in Los Angeles and about one third the cost. I suggest you come here, have a little vacation, possibly stay at our guesthouse, Quinta Zoe, and have your dental work done.


jaybear

Jan 1, 2006, 9:48 AM

Post #19 of 46 (2509 views)

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Re: [ncferret] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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Thanks to all of you who provided an up-to-date discussion of this issue. I wash everything twice in purified water, and the heavy skinned fruits I often use dishwashing soap on. But, I use the disinfectant "iodine" only when I am suspicious or having guests. So, you guests are safe!

One thing that occurred to me when moving here is that I could cross "goiter" off my list as something to worry about, since I would surely get enough iodine from the disinfectant. But now I guess I'd better buy iodized salt, as it sounds like I would not get enough iodine from the disinfectant even if I used it all the time.

I have read that the fuzzy fruits are the most likely to be contaminated with pesticides, and should be washed thoroughly for that reason. This would include the lovely raspberries from Driscoll's. Some people think that these are safe to eat with minimal washing because Driscoll's has such sanitary standards. But, I suspect those perfect raspberries may be perfect because they are sprayed with fungicides and pesticides. I am a believer in "IPM" (integrated pest management) which calls for spraying of appropriate substances when necessary, so am not horrified at the use of such things. But, I am thinking I need to wash the berries in 2 or 3 waters. Since they will rot from water, I only do this as I use them.

Incidentally, I used to live next to one of the last working produce and dairy farms in Concord, Mass. They spread a lot of fertilizer that was not too well composted, and their stuff sold to the best restaurants in Boston (such as they are!). Also, it was well known that the organic farm in town took their water from the Concord River, which was full of mercury and other industrials pollutants. Enough said about US standards. Being careful never hurts; on the other hand, one has to be a little adventurous to enjoy Mexico or anywhere else for that matter.
"Don't believe everything you think" - Maxine

JayBear



Bubba

Jan 1, 2006, 10:17 AM

Post #20 of 46 (2507 views)

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Re: [Mexcan] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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This thread reminds me of an Old Goober variation of the adolescent games played by boys such as walking the bridge railing in front of one's more cowardly peers in order to prove one's masculine prowess and achieve heroic status among the lesser ones. Having walked the bridge railing and risked and escaped sudden death, it becomes clear that the goal was not to actually get anywhere but to lord it over the more cautious denizens of the old neighborhood. Now, what I mean by that is, if one successfully walks the bridge railing unobserved, it is a feat unworthy of the effort. It is necessary to do this in the midst of others or no status is achieved thus the risk is taken for social aggrandizement and nothing more.

The same is true, when one gets older, of taking risks with one's health by eating produce that may or may not have been tainted prior to ingestion by the final consumer. One must make a personal choice as to whether or not to disinfect or wash or simply eat without cleaning, produce bought in local markets. After all. it's your ass and nobody else's. So what if the downside risk to your health can be painful, dangerous and expensive - a risk mitigated by the simple action of cleaning the produce for a few minutes prior to ingestion. However, when your personal choice enters the public domain in the form of subtle braggadocio and attempted one-upsmanship on the internet, we re-enter the land of adolescent bravado and. that's fine, but the more susceptible among readers may be tempted to think there is some rational basis for failing to clean food you plan to eat. To that extent, this thread may be harmful.

For those of you tempted to save a few marginal pennies by skipping the short and effortless disinfecting process before eating certain raw fruits and vegetables even though the process does not compromise the tastiness of the food, I ask that you contemplate the joys of the stomach pump, anti-bacterial medications and incessant visits to the toilet before acting so foolishly. Then, if you are still determined to join the ranks of our publically brave and fearless bridge-railing walkers, have at it - it's no skin off my back.

I speak as one who, as a young back packer, traveled in many primitive areas of Africa and the Indian sub-continent and ate often in places that were filthy beyond belief. I also used to eat at the Rainbow Cafe in Greenville, Alabama which was eventually shut down by the town health department citing it as the filtiest restaurant operation they had ever seen. I never got sick in any of those places and that was simply my good fortune. I'm smarter now than I was then, thank God.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Jan 1, 2006, 10:27 AM)


sfmacaws


Jan 2, 2006, 3:08 AM

Post #21 of 46 (2476 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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I also use chlorinated water to soak vegetables and I often just wash the thick skinned ones with dish soap. I rinse it all with filtered water and let them dry thoroughly. I do the same thing in the US.

Let your dishes air dry, don't wipe them dry with some cloth. Most of the bugs that will make your stomach knot up can't live without water. That cloth though is always damp so if you must wipe them with a bacteria laden towel don't use them until they have sat long enough to be dry.

I take acidopholus daily and advise all guests to start taking it 2 weeks before coming down to visit. I believe in the invisible army theory of stomach distress. If your invisible army is strong and well armed (ie, backed up often by acidophulus) then it will defeat the invisible army of the bad bacteria and you will not get sick even if you sometimes eat questionable stuff.

I eat from street stands but I make on the spot judgements using highly technical astral clues as to which ones to eat at, I also only eat at ones that are busy and where I have seen people eating with children. When eating at street stands I remove or ask them to leave off all fresh lettuce and tomato. But, I eat the salsa which is supposed to be the worst of all possible food sources and contains raw tomato. This is based on the scientific theory that hot chile will kill anything. If you don't have chile, tequila will substitute.

I got typhoid once many years ago in the DF, I was young and invinceable and thought I could drink the tap water because I was staying with rich people out in the Pedregal. It is not fun. I recommend that everyone do what they can to avoid it. Be aware that when you are burning up with 105° fever most mexicans will try to keep you covered in blankets to sweat it out. Requests for ice will get you looks of horror. Only when you start halucinating from the fever and tell them that Jesus just appeared to you floating on the ceiling and told you to cover yourself in ice cubes will you get any. When it melts it won't be replaced.

Other than the big T, I've rarely gotten a food borne illness in Mexico and almost never (never say never but I can't remember it ever happening) had any of the stomach or bowel problems associated with the tourista bug. Could be just luck but I'm not messing with a working solution.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




caldwelld


Jan 2, 2006, 8:18 AM

Post #22 of 46 (2462 views)

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Re: [Mexcan] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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And I am reminded by this thread of those who, having found their original argument wanting, are content to say: "please don't confuse me with the facts". It is a sign of age I suppose that makes us believe our methods, tried and true, are faultless. I know mine are.
dondon


Gayla

Jan 2, 2006, 11:51 AM

Post #23 of 46 (2444 views)

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Re: [Mexcan] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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After 30 years in various segments of the food business I've learned alot about food safety --
  • Most fruits and vegetables are contaminated with the naturally occuring flora and fauna of the environment in which they were grown. Some of this flora and fauna the human body can adapt to, some it can not. Why risk your health, better to be safe than sorry, or at the least very sick.
  • Microdyn, chlorine, etc. will kill the harmful stuff on the outside of the fruit or veg.
  • All harmful pathogens are not created equal. Some are bacteria, some are viruses and some are spores. They don't all die at the same rate, spores, for instance, are hard to kill. Ergo, you need to soak your stuff in order to give the killing agents time to kill what they are intended to kill
  • Food can be contaminated from many different sources. Odwalla Juices found out the hard way and it almost put them out of business. They were producing one of the only natural, unpurified, organic apple juices in the U.S...........that is until they killed a couple of kids with it. Turns out that they were using organic apples that had fallen off of organic trees into, well, organic matter. Even though they thoroughly washed their apples before processing, the temperature and duration of the wash were not long enough to get rid of the harmful organic pests. Odwalla no long makes organic, unpurified, unfiltered, naturally raw apple juice. Even the most carefully/ecologically grown produce can be unsafe. What you can't see can hurt you.
  • Why do the infamous they warn you to wash fruits and vegetables with a thick rind or outer coating since you're just going to peel it and toss it anyway? Picture it -- you've just scored a perfectly ripe melon, wiped it off any residual dirt, it looks to be perfectly fine. Consider this, it's not the melon that's the problem here, it's the knife you use to cut the melon. If the skin of the melon, or other fruit, is contaminated, as you continually cut through the rind, skin, shell, whatever, you are depositing whatever bacteria, virus or spore that may have been on the out rind of the fruit/vegetable on the inside flesh that you're going to eat. There was a Sizzler in central Oregon that learned this lesson the hard way several years ago. Made a bunch of people sick because their pantry cook had not washed the melons that had contaminated rinds. As the cook cut the melons s/he transferred the contaminate from the outside of the fruit to the inside. It's that simple. BTW, that Sizzler went out of business.
  • Chi-chi's is still trying to recover from the contaminated green onions that had been received from a grower in Mexico. Something the grower used. And then there was the very popular taqueria in Redwood City, CA that had a dynamite lunch business and an equally dynamite salsa cruda. Killed 2 people before the local health authorities figured out that the cilantro used in the salsa was contaminated.
  • Oh, and the idea that Mexican's seem more immune to the local food contaminates is only partially accurate. The human body is an amazing thing, it will adapt to what's in the local environment to a large extent, but not to everything. But even Mexican's get sick too, and some die each year from food contaminates. And after many years, I can also say that my Mexican employees that went home for holidays usually got sick when they got home because their body had adapted to their American environment. And many Mexican's get sick when they first come to the hygeine-phobic States.

Sadly, a vast majority of Americans have no understanding or concept of how the food chain really works. The connection to the land and the food chain is still apparent in Mexico. You probably have a way better idea of where your food came from, how it was grown, produced or slaughtered, and possible who even did the growing, producing or slaughtering in Mexico than you do in the U.S. It doesn't necessarily make your food any safer, just more personal. Last year I had the opportunity to visit a sausage maker in Teotitlan del Valle in Oaxaca and see how he made his product. I love sausage, any kind of sausage and I often feel that it's probably better that I don't knwo what's in it. Having visited several U.S. packing plants it's generally not a happy experience. The little sausage maker in Teotitlan was a 3rd generation salchichero, his shop was spotless clean (you could literally eat off the floor) as was his entire method of making and stuffing sausages. Someone remarked about how clean his operation was and his answer was equally telling - "this is a small village, everyone knows my product, the risk to my reputation and business is too big for me to take shortcuts and make someone sick". It's not exactly the same story with U.S. agribusiness ;-)

Germs are a fact of life no matter where you live and no matter what you eat. Some are good, some not so good, and a few - like spores - that can ultimately kill you. And, unfortunately, like everything else germs are mutating in order to survive the onslaught of antibacterials with which we humans keep trying to kill them. Judicious use of safegards such as Microdyne and a little common sense will prevent a large majority of food borne illnesses.


caldwelld


Jan 3, 2006, 8:15 AM

Post #24 of 46 (2432 views)

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Re: [Gayla] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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I am sorry but your second bullet is simply not supported by research conducted by reputable health institutions around the world.
dondon


Bubba

Jan 3, 2006, 2:59 PM

Post #25 of 46 (2417 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] Treating Veggies and Fruit

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What are you trying to say, DonDon? That Microdyne and chlorine do not work?
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