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Peter


Feb 28, 2010, 11:06 AM

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Discussion of Chili con Carne, Etc

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...they could just as well have retired to Itabena, Mississippi, lived in a tenant farmer's tarpaper shack and enjoyed their luncheon with some of Uncle Willy's personal Back 40 hooche.


Sounds good, but the weather here is much nicer.

Taking things out of context is not too unusual for me if I think I can put a different spin on it. Cheap lunch meat is not that cheap here, knowing that beforehand might render moot the discussion of a new immigrations manual for potential new ex-pat retirees here. One might think finding a good can of chili con carne would be easy here in Mexico, not so, and not at a Safeway Super Saver discount price if you find it, and Hormel instead of Dennison's when you do find it, thank gawd it isn't Nalley's. Yuch! But Mexico does have their own cheap lunch meats. I had an unexpectedly good cheese omelet the other day when a bit of leftover chicharrón in salsa was diced up and added to the inside, almost like a bit of bacon. That Spam has some tough competition for the cardiologist's knife around here.


(This post was edited by esperanza on Mar 1, 2010, 10:54 AM)



La Isla


Feb 28, 2010, 11:58 AM

Post #2 of 32 (3621 views)

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Re: [Peter] Chili con Carne Etc

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One might think finding a good can of chili con carne would be easy here in Mexico, not so,...


But who would think that, Peter? Perhaps only those unfamiliar with real Mexican food, which chili [sic.] con carne is definitely not!


(This post was edited by esperanza on Mar 1, 2010, 10:55 AM)


Rolly


Feb 28, 2010, 12:08 PM

Post #3 of 32 (3618 views)

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Re: [La Isla] New immigration manual

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Chili con carne is sort of the state dish of Texas. It has nothing to do with México.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook


joaquinx


Feb 28, 2010, 3:30 PM

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Re: [Rolly] New immigration manual

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Chili con carne is sort of the state dish of Texas. It has nothing to do with México.


I has much to do with Mexico, but only those parts of Texas that were once Mexico.


Peter


Feb 28, 2010, 3:33 PM

Post #5 of 32 (3674 views)

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Re: [La Isla] New immigration manual

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One might think finding a good can of chili con carne would be easy here in Mexico, not so,...


But who would think that, Peter? Perhaps only those unfamiliar with real Mexican food, which chili [sic.] con carne is definitely not!


One who would associate a Spanish-sounding food name with a Spanish-speaking country? I think [spelling IS correct] in this case, but as always, YMMV. Do you prefer catsup to ketchup? Or is it just a matter of labelling?

Of course I know what REAL Mexican food is, I grew up in southern California. I've been eating burritos at burger stands practically all my life, even before they started using flour tortillas, One might even think one would find a good burrito in Mexico, but think again.


tashby

Feb 28, 2010, 3:38 PM

Post #6 of 32 (3669 views)

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Re: [Peter] New immigration manual

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Maybe the New Immigration Manual will include a section on food.


Gringal

Feb 28, 2010, 3:46 PM

Post #7 of 32 (3663 views)

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Re: [Peter] New immigration manual

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The best Mexican food isn't served in Mexico: IMO, it's in California. From real restaurants to taco stands to rolling servi-trucks. I don't begin to understand this....but it's so.


esperanza

Feb 28, 2010, 4:23 PM

Post #8 of 32 (3654 views)

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Re: [Peter] New immigration manual

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One might think finding a good can of chili con carne would be easy here in Mexico, not so,...


But who would think that, Peter? Perhaps only those unfamiliar with real Mexican food, which chili [sic.] con carne is definitely not!


One who would associate a Spanish-sounding food name with a Spanish-speaking country? I think [spelling IS correct] in this case, but as always, YMMV. Do you prefer catsup to ketchup? Or is it just a matter of labelling?

Of course I know what REAL Mexican food is, I grew up in southern California. I've been eating burritos at burger stands practically all my life, even before they started using flour tortillas, One might even think one would find a good burrito in Mexico, but think again.

Peter, most of the so-called Mexican food in southern California bears no resemblance to real Mexican food--it's Cal-Mex (as opposed to Tex-Mex), delicious in its own right but not at all like the real deal here in Mexico. I lived in San Diego for many years and ate more times than I like to confess at all the Alberto's, Roberto's, Rigoberto's, Aliberto's, and so on--and enjoyed every mouthful, but it doesn't compare to the food in Mexico.

The burrito, ubiquitous and as big as your forearm in southern California, just doesn't exist here in the central part of Mexico. It's a northern Mexico invention, made with northern Mexico wheat flour tortillas, exported to the border area of the USA and from there to Cal-Mex and Tex-Mex joints everywhere NOB.

And chili--the name of that canned stuff you're looking for--does not exist in Mexico. I love a good chili con carne as much as the next person, but chili is not Mexican food. Even the word 'chili' doesn't exist here (unless you count Chili's chain restaurant, an import from the USA). The word is chile, and again, there's no resemblance to any chili con carne made in the USA. In Mexico, chile is a vegetable--you can read a good bit about it in the February 20 and February 27, 2010 editions of Mexico Cooks!.




http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Peter


Feb 28, 2010, 5:20 PM

Post #9 of 32 (3642 views)

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Re: [esperanza] New immigration manual

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Peter, most of the so-called Mexican food in southern California bears no resemblance to real Mexican food
_______

But REAL Mexicans prepare it, most of the time. (I'm going to have to ask Leonard if I can borrow Sheldon's sign.)

I have a real question for the experts:

Is the tortilla de trigo REAL MEXICAN? Or just another spin-off?


(This post was edited by Peter on Mar 1, 2010, 10:28 PM)


Peter


Feb 28, 2010, 5:26 PM

Post #10 of 32 (3641 views)

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esperanza

Feb 28, 2010, 5:54 PM

Post #11 of 32 (3632 views)

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Re: [Peter] New immigration manual

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Peter, it's real Mexican--tortillas de harina de trigo (wheat flour tortillas) come from northern Mexican, where wheat has been grown since Father Eusebio Kino, a Jesuit who arrived in Mexico from Europe in the 1680s, brought seeds for the first wheat crops in the New World.

Mexico is one of the most important producers of wheat in the Western Hemisphere, and the northern state of Sonora is the third largest producer of wheat in Mexico. Wheat products such as tortillas de harina, or flour tortillas, breads and pastries also are iconic markers of a manifest Norteño cultural and regional identity in northern Mexico and the southwestern U.S.

Wheat cultivation, milling and trading now comprise one of the most important economic sectors in Sonora. According to an assessment by the Mexico-based International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center, wheat farmers in Sonora obtain some of the highest wheat yields among developing countries.


Read this wonderful book--fascinating cover to cover--for an amazing understanding of Tex-Mex cooking and its long and revered history:
http://www.amazon.com/...Photos/dp/0767914880.






http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









(This post was edited by esperanza on Feb 28, 2010, 6:10 PM)


Papirex


Feb 28, 2010, 9:48 PM

Post #12 of 32 (3559 views)

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Re: [esperanza] New immigration manual

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Esperanza, I agree with everything you said. I too am originally from California, although it was The Napa Valley in northern California. My own Mother died when I was only 2 years old. Her best friend was a Mexican lady named Lupe. My father hired her to keep our house and she helped raise us. I don't know if my aunt Lu was born in México, or if she was a Chicana and I never did care.


Aunt Lu or her family must have come from northern México where flour tortillas are the most popular because she used to make us the most delicious tortillas harina I have ever eaten. I was raised on them. A homemade tortilla is as different from the machine made monstrosities we can usually buy here as Wonder bread is from home baked bread.


One of our nieces from México City was surprised that I preferred tortillas harina over tortillas maize. She wondered where we could get them in The United States. She was amazed that they sold them in stores up there. I like tortillas maize, but I much prefer tortillas harina.


As to Burritos, they used to be just called Burros when they were all as long as your forearm. They started making them about half-sized and calling them by the diminutive name Burritos when they started selling them from the “roach coaches” on construction jobs, etc. in California in about the 1950s.


One of our daughters' friends in California once told us she loved Mexican food. She said she loved everything from Taco Bell. It was hard for Doris and I not to embarrass her by laughing in her face. I know that chili con carne is not, and never has been a Mexican food, it is a NOB recipe. I like it, but it is not from here.


I have said before, that we are all experts on our own little corner of México. But very few people are experts about everything in México. The differing statements on this string about something as common as food shows that.


I do sometimes use the word chili in my posts, just as I try never to use the one word México when I mean México City, because I am aware that many of the visitors here are not from México (the country) and might not fully grasp what I was trying to say. Where we live, if you say México, everyone knows from what you are saying if you mean México City.


Rex

"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo


La Isla


Mar 1, 2010, 12:32 PM

Post #13 of 32 (3449 views)

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Re: [Peter] New immigration manual

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Peter, most of the so-called Mexican food in southern California bears no resemblance to real Mexican food
_______

But REAL Mexicans prepared it, most of the time.


But these are Mexicans now living in California, so they've had to modify their recipes to appeal to Californians instead of Mexicans. A good analogy would be what has happened to Chinese food in the different countries where the Chinese diaspora has settled. What I consider "good" Chinese food (in the form it takes in places like New York City and Philadelphia) is very different from what you can find in Mexico City or London or Madrid. The same has happened to Mexican food in the different places where Mexicans hae settled and set up shop, so to speak.


tashby

Mar 1, 2010, 1:26 PM

Post #14 of 32 (3442 views)

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Re: [La Isla] New immigration manual

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But these are Mexicans now living in California, so they've had to modify their recipes to appeal to Californians instead of Mexicans.


Not always. There are lots of areas in the US, and not just in California, with a large enough Mexican population to support authentic Mexican food.

Oh great! Now I'm jonesing for some Tacos Adobada off my favorite Taco Truck on Rainier Ave. South in Seattle!


mazbook1


Mar 1, 2010, 7:30 PM

Post #15 of 32 (3423 views)

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Re: [Papirex] New immigration manual

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Well, my take on burritos is that they came before "burros" and were a purely New Mexican invention. I was buying burritos (the little ones made with flour tortillas the size of tortillas de maíz) stuffed with refritos for lunch in Santa Fe in the very early 1940s. A little "roach coach" of that era ( a three-wheeled bike with an insulated box on the front) sold them (and "hot" tamales made with chile and pork, muy, muy picante) out in front of the primary school I attended. At the time I was a new New Mexican and "hot" wasn't in my vocabulary, so after the first try, it was always burritos. Later I learned to truly enjoy "hot" chile and now find that Mexican food of most stripes to be very mild unless the particular vendor/restaurant has a truly picante salsa.

In New Mexico we were taught that tortillas de harina de trigo actually originated there when the Americans started shipping in wheat flour in barrels down the Santa Fe trail by the wagon load and it was easier to get than nixtamalized maiz. Corn was a staple of the indiginous people in New Mexico, but was never grown in the quantities to supply the burgeoning, post 1848 population.

Oh, and "chili con carne". I only discovered that this too was an import from either the U.S. or Texas the first time I ordered carne con chile as a kid in New Mexico thinking it would be somewhat similar to the "chili con carne" that my mother fixed from a can. Whooooose!!! What a surprise. It was (for me at the time) deadly "hot", being cooked pork in a pure red chile sauce. Had to give that up for a few years too. LOL

(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Mar 1, 2010, 7:39 PM)


joaquinx


Mar 1, 2010, 8:09 PM

Post #16 of 32 (3413 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] New immigration manual

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Frito chili pie with onions and hot sauce. Some days I do miss Texas.


mazbook1


Mar 1, 2010, 8:12 PM

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Re: [joaquinx] New immigration manual

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joaquinx, You sure don't need the hot sauce if you order a "frinto pie" in New Mexico. LOL One of the "hottest" I have ever had is served at the basement lunch counter in the New Mexico State Capitol building where I was a lobbyist for 25 years.


esperanza

Mar 1, 2010, 8:19 PM

Post #18 of 32 (3406 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] New immigration manual

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Well, my take on burritos is that they came before "burros" and were a purely New Mexican invention. I was buying burritos (the little ones made with flour tortillas the size of tortillas de maíz) stuffed with refritos for lunch in Santa Fe in the very early 1940s. A little "roach coach" of that era ( a three-wheeled bike with an insulated box on the front) sold them (and "hot" tamales made with chile and pork, muy, muy picante) out in front of the primary school I attended. At the time I was a new New Mexican and "hot" wasn't in my vocabulary, so after the first try, it was always burritos. Later I learned to truly enjoy "hot" chile and now find that Mexican food of most stripes to be very mild unless the particular vendor/restaurant has a truly picante salsa.

In New Mexico we were taught that tortillas de harina de trigo actually originated there when the Americans started shipping in wheat flour in barrels down the Santa Fe trail by the wagon load and it was easier to get than nixtamalized maiz. Corn was a staple of the indiginous people in New Mexico, but was never grown in the quantities to supply the burgeoning, post 1848 population.

Oh, and "chili con carne". I only discovered that this too was an import from either the U.S. or Texas the first time I ordered carne con chile as a kid in New Mexico thinking it would be somewhat similar to the "chili con carne" that my mother fixed from a can. Whooooose!!! What a surprise. It was (for me at the time) deadly "hot", being cooked pork in a pure red chile sauce. Had to give that up for a few years too. LOL

http://mexicocooks.typepad.com/...for-those-of-yo.html




http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









mazbook1


Mar 1, 2010, 10:07 PM

Post #19 of 32 (3397 views)

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Re: [esperanza] New immigration manual

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esperanza, the Random House Dictionary agrees with my date the best (1940-1945) but Santa Fe, New Mexico is a looooooong way from the Mexican state of Guerrero. Since they were obviously "old hat" in Santa Fe in the early 1940s, I have no idea when they might have started serving them there. My memory fails me, but I'm sure that it wasn't until the 1950s that they started to show up on restaurant menus in Albuquerque where we moved to in the mid-1940s.

Now, of course, they are ubiquitous. No mexican and most gringo restaurants in New Mexico have one or more varieties of burrito on the menu, even McDonalds has a scrambled egg, green chile and bacon, "breakfast" burrito. My all time favorite though is a carne adobado (New Mexico style, quite different than Mexican style) burrito. I even make those here in Mazatlán and my family loves them. Didn't get a chance to make them with the last batch of carne adobado, though, my wife stole it right out from under my nose, deboned and defatted it, mixed it with nopalitos and served it over rice. WOW! what a special dish. I often take the carne adobado I make down the street to a neighbor who makes tamales for sale out of her house (all types) and have her make up a batch of carne adobado tamales for my family. That too is a welcome treat at my house.

(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Mar 1, 2010, 10:09 PM)


Peter


Mar 2, 2010, 1:14 AM

Post #20 of 32 (3381 views)

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Re: [esperanza] New immigration manual

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Peter, most of the so-called Mexican food in southern California bears no resemblance to real Mexican food--it's Cal-Mex (as opposed to Tex-Mex),...
__________

Are you saying Tex-Mex is more authentic, and that Cal-Mex is not even in the ballpark? I'm not sure where Taco Bell originated but that is not what I associate with the Mexican food I grew up with in California, that chain is something else altogether, Iowa-Mex perhaps.

Granted, the burger stand variety was not as authentic but even some of that is not far off from what you find being sold in the street corner taco fry stands of Morelia. In the restaurants of Oxnard, California the chiles rellenos I have eaten there since the 50's are no different than what my esposa Mexicana prepares at home here are virtually identical and for many other menu items one could say the same, just like from the home kitchens here. But these items are sold alongside others with a decidedly Americanized twist, like what is comonly known there as a taco, a taco dorado prepared with ground meat; they really don't do that here quite the same. Then Taco Bell took that idea and sanitized the hell out of it, flavor included. They are a far cry from even the burger stand Mexican food items of the old California style.



The early Southern California burritos were strictly little rolled and fried corn tortillas filled only with beans and occasionally with cheese added, then served in an order of three accompanied by a small cup of hot sauce. I doubt this was first done on foreign soil, but something very similar would not be entirely uncommon on a Mexican dinner table. Please don't tell me beans rolled in a fried corn tortilla with red chile salsa is pure gringo.

When Flour tortillas started becoming popular, being much larger they were rolled up with other burger stand items such as lettuce, tomato, onions, ground beef spiced for tacos, cheese, and refried beans, not fried, then sold as a "flour burrito," the others now listed as "corn burritos." In a short time they became very popular as they were huge, very filling, inexpensive, and easy to prepare. In time the little "corn burritos" virtually disappeared from the menu and their big brother became known only as a burrito, the burrito. That is the evolution of this concoction where I grew up and probably as authentic a story as any about this Mexican-style tortilla sandwich.

In time stands began to open up dedicated to the sole purpose of selling burritos, accompanying drinks, and nothing else. They mostly all began to follow much the same formula and again evolved. They were now available with a variety of meat selections such as carne asada, carnitas, barbacoa, al pastor, chile verde (diced pork stewed in green chile sauce), and other selections or without meat, all accompanied with rice, beans, a sprinkling of diced onions and cilantro, and a choice of hot or mild salsa. Most every shop had some variations but mainly all followed the same general formula, and in most cases the lettuce and tomato disappeared. For several decades now that is the common burrito you would find at most of the independent stands in much of Southern California. The usual drinks available are fountain or bottled sodas, and aquas of horchata, jamaica, and tamarindo.

Now that the experts have established that flour tortillas are indeed REAL Mexican it is difficult for me to imagine that it was not some ingenious Mexicano on the Republic's soil that was not the first to roll some guisado up in a flour tortilla with a bit of rice, beans, and salsa and proceed to eat the concoction. Hell, he probably just called it a taco if he gave naming the concoction a thought at all. What I can believe is that some gringo fry cook perhaps first thought to list it on the menu as a type of burrito.

I don't find that burrito here in Morelia, but indeed a burrito of sorts can be found, what it has in common is that it is huge and with a variety of things rolled up in a flour tortilla. What it suffers here is similar to that of the hamburguesa in that it is usually sort of over-done with things that seemingly don't belong and has lost its simplicity to a hodge-podge of extras like fried mashed potatoes and every kind of sauce available added together on it like worschestershire, ketchup, mayo, crema, mostaza, chile salsa, etc. That kind of food over-innovation is what keeps me away from the higher-end restaurants here. The gringo versions of these foods is typically much simpler.

I saw the California-style burrito evolve into something perhaps more authentic Mexican in style, and Taco Bell sprout up and run it in the other direction. And now on the streets of Michoacán I have seen it evolve in another way altogether, but that is authentic Mexican food as sold here in Mexico. Sunday, just after posting in this thread I got tried a burrito from just around the corner from me on Morelia's main street. Chorizo, fried potato, lettuce, queso amarillo, sour cream, and ketchup wrapped in a heated flour tortilla with a couple roasted serrano chiles on the side is an example of a genuine-article Mexican burrito.


(This post was edited by Peter on Mar 2, 2010, 1:33 AM)


Manuel Dexterity

Mar 2, 2010, 6:02 AM

Post #21 of 32 (3367 views)

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Re: [Peter] New immigration manual

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Of course I know what REAL Mexican food is, I grew up in southern California. I've been eating burritos at burger stands practically all my life, even before they started using flour tortillas, One might even think one would find a good burrito in Mexico, but think again.


You obviously have not traveled much in the north because in Sonora you would have been treated to the best burrito on the planet.

There is nothing NOB like the famous flour tortilla "sobaquera", as long as your arm, spread with a thin layer of beans and filled with either the succulent carne asada of the famed Sonoran beef or the equally famous machaca and laced with salsa a.tu gusto.


joaquinx


Mar 2, 2010, 6:18 AM

Post #22 of 32 (3363 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] New immigration manual

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And nothing better than the famous Texas chimichanga, which is a huge, and I do mean huge, burrito stuffed with everything found in the kitchen and whatever was swept up from the floor. Fried and covered with hot sauce. After eating one, you can't go near people for at least four hours. It does keep people out of your work cubical!!


Peter


Mar 2, 2010, 7:11 AM

Post #23 of 32 (3357 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] New immigration manual

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Manuel Dex is quite correct that I have not travelled much in the northern part of the country, in fact just once when I drove my car down to the central highlands is the extent of my travels there.

After my rather long post on the evolution of the burrito in SoCal it is fair to add all I know of the chimichanga, or what I have heard would be a more correct way to put it. The story goes that after a Texas restaurant owner/operator had finished preparing a grand Texas burrito she accidently dropped it into the deep fryer. With children present she held back her exclamation to "chi-michanga!" and the name stuck.

A deep-fried flour tortilla burrito is a great idea and I'm surprised they hadn't appeared sooner, and that it came about by accident if the story is correct.


Papirex


Mar 2, 2010, 8:35 AM

Post #24 of 32 (3339 views)

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Re: [Peter] New immigration manual

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When I was living in Fairbanks in the 1970s, there was an American steak house that had chimichangas on their menu. I had never heard of them before but the first few times I tried them, they were delicious. They consisted of small cubes of steak in a sauce, no tortillas. The last couple of times I ordered them, they were not so good, the American chef was obviously making them for the first time from a recipe with fairly large pieces of steak.


I asked a Mexican-American friend what he thought of them. He told me they don't exist in México and the nearest English definition he could think of for chimichanga was it was sort of like saying a thingamajig.


I have never seen them on a menu here in México, and only a couple of times in The US since then. I have no idea of how they make them in Texas. I used to live in Brownsville, Texas on the border across from Matamoros in the early 1970s, they were unknown in those days too. I always pass on them now.


Rex

"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo


Peter


Mar 2, 2010, 8:44 AM

Post #25 of 32 (3334 views)

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Re: [Papirex] New immigration manual

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I have seen pre-packaged chimichangas in the frozen food section of certain supermarkets in Morelia but not yet on restaurant menus.

I was in Anchorage in the late 70's for a time and don't recall seeing tortillas of any type. Earlier years in Fairbanks probably make that encounter even less likely. Did you find tortillas there at all?
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