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LdN

Sep 19, 2002, 10:32 AM

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hispanic culture

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Can someone explain the concept of "shame" or "saving face" in the Hispanic culture? TIA

Rox Anne

Sep 19, 2002, 2:43 PM

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hispanic culture

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: Can someone explain the concept of "shame" or "saving face" in the Hispanic culture? TIAshame/verguenza

Jim en Cancún

Sep 19, 2002, 5:49 PM

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hispanic culture

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Georgia

Sep 20, 2002, 5:55 PM

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I'll give this a shot .... it's difficult

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I guess, first of all, you need to understand class or caste. There are social levels in most hispanic cultures. Each class has (sometimes different) sensibilities about what would cause "verguenza" or shame. My guess is that the burgeoning middle class is the most susceptible .... because they are so tenuous in their social strata. The poor have nothing to lose, the rich are above it all. The most vulnerable, then, are the upwardly, and fragily, mobile. There is a desire to appear to be of the higher class and anything that undermines the outward appearance is threatening. (Example: I have a friend whose daughter was stood up almost virtually at the altar. In order to "save face" she went to the United States for a year to study there. She wasn't left to be the goat in her pueblo ...big face saver for her.) There also is face saving within a class - and it often has to do with machismo among men. I think among women it is diffent - and to be honest, I'm not sure about what women find to be a threat. Men are pretty obvious, women are more subtle.As a girl, I remember being in a bar, and an old man got drunk and fell off his barstool. Drunkeness, in Spain, was taboo in public. The bar owner was furious and excoriated the man. The poor old man kept moaning that he was "avergonzado" -- but he still couldn't get up and no one helped him. It was about human dignity. I think it is the same in Mexico.It's difficult to explain. I hope this helps some.
: Can someone explain the concept of "shame" or "saving face" in the Hispanic culture? TIA

sparks

Sep 20, 2002, 6:40 PM

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shame = machismo which is mostly illusion

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I shouldn't get involved in this and it is not Spanish language related ... but that is what it seems to me. I don't claim to understand machismo (I'm so secure myself (NOT)) in Latin culture (or any other - there are many) but sure see the results.How about an immature/insecure need to be in control ... which few of us are. Common human condition.

LdN

Sep 21, 2002, 7:03 AM

Post #6 of 9 (1056 views)

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I'll give this a shot .... it's difficult

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Thank you Georgia. I know it is a difficult concept to explain without giving examples. I was hoping someone could explain it better than I. Its a difficult concept to convey to someone that hasnt grown up in the culture.
: I guess, first of all, you need to understand class or caste. There are social levels in most hispanic cultures. Each class has (sometimes different) sensibilities about what would cause "verguenza" or shame. My guess is that the burgeoning middle class is the most susceptible .... because they are so tenuous in their social strata. The poor have nothing to lose, the rich are above it all. The most vulnerable, then, are the upwardly, and fragily, mobile. There is a desire to appear to be of the higher class and anything that undermines the outward appearance is threatening. (Example: I have a friend whose daughter was stood up almost virtually at the altar. In order to "save face" she went to the United States for a year to study there. She wasn't left to be the goat in her pueblo ...big face saver for her.) : There also is face saving within a class - and it often has to do with machismo among men. I think among women it is diffent - and to be honest, I'm not sure about what women find to be a threat. Men are pretty obvious, women are more subtle.: As a girl, I remember being in a bar, and an old man got drunk and fell off his barstool. Drunkeness, in Spain, was taboo in public. The bar owner was furious and excoriated the man. The poor old man kept moaning that he was "avergonzado" -- but he still couldn't get up and no one helped him. It was about human dignity. I think it is the same in Mexico.: It's difficult to explain. I hope this helps some.:
: : Can someone explain the concept of "shame" or "saving face" in the Hispanic culture? TIA

Georgia

Sep 21, 2002, 7:47 AM

Post #7 of 9 (1054 views)

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From another perspective

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I think this is actually related to language ... because language tells us so much about the attitudes of a culture. So, consider the opposite of what you asked: in Spanish it is a profound, negative accusation to be a "sinverguenza" or to say that so and so "no tiene verguenza." The old term in English "shameless hussy" comes to mind: we don't hear that anymore, do we? So there has developed a cultural divide between USA citizens (I'm afraid to say "Americans" anymore on this forum!) and Hispanics over the notion of shame. In the US it doesn't seem to be an issue any longer. My personal opinion is that this is not the consequence of sound mental health but of undeserved arrogance. Others will disagree with that assessment ... there is probably truth in both points of view. But in the hispanic culture the notion of shame still has importance and meaning. It is related to dignity, righteousness, reputation: all of which matter greatly in most hispanic societal levels. Remember in my previous post I said that the rich are above it? That is the arrogance of which I speak. : Can someone explain the concept of "shame" or "saving face" in the Hispanic culture? TIA

LdN

Sep 22, 2002, 5:22 PM

Post #8 of 9 (1048 views)

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From another perspective

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Georgia...I agree that in the Hispanic culture the notion of shame still has importance. You have put into words exactly what I was trying to convey to a non-Hispanic when you said "It is related to dignity, righteousness, reputation: all of which matter greatly in most hispanic societal levels."--------------------------------------------------------------
: I think this is actually related to language ... because language tells us so much about the attitudes of a culture. : So, consider the opposite of what you asked: in Spanish it is a profound, negative accusation to be a "sinverguenza" or to say that so and so "no tiene verguenza." The old term in English "shameless hussy" comes to mind: we don't hear that anymore, do we? So there has developed a cultural divide between USA citizens (I'm afraid to say "Americans" anymore on this forum!) and Hispanics over the notion of shame. : In the US it doesn't seem to be an issue any longer. My personal opinion is that this is not the consequence of sound mental health but of undeserved arrogance. Others will disagree with that assessment ... there is probably truth in both points of view. But in the hispanic culture the notion of shame still has importance and meaning. It is related to dignity, righteousness, reputation: all of which matter greatly in most hispanic societal levels. Remember in my previous post I said that the rich are above it? That is the arrogance of which I speak. : : Can someone explain the concept of "shame" or "saving face" in the Hispanic culture? TIA

wendy

Sep 22, 2002, 9:37 PM

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Bien hecho Georgia

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Estimada Georgia,>: I think this is actually related to language ... because language tells us so much about the attitudes of a culture. Asi es eso. : But in the hispanic culture the notion of shame still has importance and meaning. It is related to dignity, righteousness, reputation: all of which matter greatly in most hispanic societal levels. Gracias... por estos ejemplos de tus ideas. Me ayudan mucho.Creo que hayan muchas diferencias entre la cultura mexicana y la cultura (americana)...(anglo/protestante)???. Por ejemplo... ¿En el uso de una palabra como vergüenza...
qué más da?Tal vez...mucho!Continue en tus explicaciónes, por favor. wendy