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canuck

Aug 18, 2002, 12:32 AM

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Uptight About Usted

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Hi All,I'm a 21 year old Canadian whose been in Morelia for a few months. And one of my biggest problems with Spanish is the use of usted. If I meet a random store clerk or its official I can or will use usted with little hesitation. But it drives me crazy using it with people I am more close with. I feel it creates an artificial separation, division or classification between two people. I often find myself trying at all costs to come up with another way to phrase my statement when I think maybe I should be using usted. For example, theres a girl I know here and have known since before this visit, and she always gets mad at me when I tutear her parents. So now at all costs I try to rephrase a statement such as 'your daughter told me' to 'Jane told me', or changing usted to ustedes where ever possible. I don't understand why it's such a big deal for me. It could be because I kind of reject this absolute no questions asked respect for parents and authority here. All I know is that it really gets annoying trying to rephrase everything to avoid tutear'ing all the time, especially when the person is tutear'ing me back.Does anyone else have these same feelings?

Dan the Man

Aug 18, 2002, 7:24 AM

Post #2 of 20 (3317 views)

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when in doubt, use "Ud." form (nmsg.)

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:
: Hi All,: I'm a 21 year old Canadian whose been in Morelia for a few months. And one of my biggest problems with Spanish is the use of usted. If I meet a random store clerk or its official I can or will use usted with little hesitation. But it drives me crazy using it with people I am more close with. I feel it creates an artificial separation, division or classification between two people. I often find myself trying at all costs to come up with another way to phrase my statement when I think maybe I should be using usted. : For example, theres a girl I know here and have known since before this visit, and she always gets mad at me when I tutear her parents. So now at all costs I try to rephrase a statement such as 'your daughter told me' to 'Jane told me', or changing usted to ustedes where ever possible. : I don't understand why it's such a big deal for me. It could be because I kind of reject this absolute no questions asked respect for parents and authority here. All I know is that it really gets annoying trying to rephrase everything to avoid tutear'ing all the time, especially when the person is tutear'ing me back.: Does anyone else have these same feelings?

Hank Duckman

Aug 18, 2002, 11:05 AM

Post #3 of 20 (3316 views)

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Uptight About Usted

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Being that I live in Morelia, where you are at present, I think I can make a valid comment about "tutearing", an often discussed topic here in the past which may manifest regional differences. My custom in it's usage (tu vs. usted) comes from interaction with educated people from the middle class and up. After a first meeting in a social situation, every one I've met uses "tu" in addressing me and I in turn use "tu" addressing them. In the social setting you describe, I'd recommend doing what the Roman's do, that is, abide by the young lady's judgment as to her parents' preferences (if you want to stay in her good graces).If I were personally introduced to President Fox or Governor Cardenas Batel, I would use "usted" until they invited me to use "tu", because all over the world it is customary to demonstrate respect for those in authority, at least at high levels of government. Adhering to local custom shows respect for it. You said": I don't understand why it's such a big deal for me. It could be because I kind of reject this absolute no questions asked respect for parents and authority here. But it drives me crazy using it with people I am more close with. I feel it creates an artificial separation, division or classification between two people"Since you posed the question as to why it's such a big deal for you, I am wondering if your not signing your real name and not giving an email address gives insight into the answer to this question? Food for thought ):>)Saludos;Hank

Nip

Aug 20, 2002, 5:27 AM

Post #4 of 20 (3305 views)

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you answered your own question....

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Its a "generation thing" and you answered your own question! Its because you reject "this absolute no questions asked respect for parents and authority" which is not a "Mexico" thing. When I was growing up you always said "yes sir/no sir and yes ma'am/no ma'am" and directed your "elders" by Mr. or Mrs.. Nowadays I see kids (and I mean teens and younger) calling adults by their first names. This really irritates me and I am trying to raise my own 2 year old the "old ways". There is nothing wrong with having a little respect for parents and authority eh!
BTW if you expect to remain friends with this girl I'd abide by her wishes.
:
: Hi All,: I'm a 21 year old Canadian whose been in Morelia for a few months. And one of my biggest problems with Spanish is the use of usted. If I meet a random store clerk or its official I can or will use usted with little hesitation. But it drives me crazy using it with people I am more close with. I feel it creates an artificial separation, division or classification between two people. I often find myself trying at all costs to come up with another way to phrase my statement when I think maybe I should be using usted. : For example, theres a girl I know here and have known since before this visit, and she always gets mad at me when I tutear her parents. So now at all costs I try to rephrase a statement such as 'your daughter told me' to 'Jane told me', or changing usted to ustedes where ever possible. : I don't understand why it's such a big deal for me. It could be because I kind of reject this absolute no questions asked respect for parents and authority here. All I know is that it really gets annoying trying to rephrase everything to avoid tutear'ing all the time, especially when the person is tutear'ing me back.: Does anyone else have these same feelings?

jerezano

Aug 20, 2002, 7:13 AM

Post #5 of 20 (3322 views)

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Another Canadian

Aug 22, 2002, 6:37 PM

Post #6 of 20 (3310 views)

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Uptight About Usted

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In my opinion this is all brought about in the education system where even teachers are being called by their first name.
All you have to do is look at other countries such as France where you have vous and tu, In Germany Sie and Du. There are probably many others where this is also tru. It is the same reason as in Spanish, a sign of respect of your elders and people in a position above yours in society or business. It is the elder or higher up who may initiate any change, or as also happens after a lengthy relationship it can change to the less formal way of addressing someone else.
That's the way it has been for centuries and that's the way it will stay for a long time to come.

Maat

Aug 25, 2002, 9:31 AM

Post #7 of 20 (3318 views)

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Uptight About Usted

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Formal word usage has fallen into disuse in the usa and probably to a lesser degree in Canada. However, in most of the rest of the world formal forms of address are the rule rather than the exception. I have Always found using a more formal form of address works wonders in a setting that is foreign to Me, even in my own country. Let the person im meeting, or visiting, take the lead.And Very Important to remember, it really doesn't matter where a person is from. When you're in someone elses home, you follow their rules. That's a very good rule of thumb that works more often than not. Disregarding that rule can create a situation that might not be quite so pleasant.I'm as casual as the next person, usually more, but when formality is the order of the day I easily switch gears. It's just not a big deal, and i've been that way since I was 17 when i first started traveling. Formal forms of address create guidelines and structure, and to a certain degree eliminate guesswork, for participating in polite conversation. It eliminates the need to try and figure out who deserves formality and who doesn't. Mexico-specific: Mexico is a conservative country that for the most part still uses the formal forms of address for most situations involving meeting people who are new to you. By showing the formal aspect of yourself, you are showing that you are attentive to, and respect, the cultural imperatives of the the place you are visiting.

STRAYKINGFISHER STRAYKINGFISHER@YAHOO.COM

Dec 17, 2003, 11:11 AM

Post #8 of 20 (3479 views)

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Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

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THE WORD USTED IS COMMONLY USED AS A SIGN OF RESPECT, GENERALLY IF A PERSON IS OLDER THAN YOU, SAY ABOUT 5 OR MORE YEARS, YOU SHOW THEM RESPECT BY SAYING USTED, THERE IS A WAY THAT YOU CAN AVOID USING THE WORD, JUST OMIT IT, I DON'T BELIEVE IT WILL BE DISRESPECTFUL, EX: "COMO LE VA A USTED" WOULD BECOME.."COMO LE VA" YOU COULD USE THIS FORM ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE KNOWN THESE PEOPLE FOR A WHILE, GENERALLY YOU TREAT GRAND PARENTS AND THE LIKE WITH AS MUCH RESPECT AS POSSIBLE.

cabral

Dec 22, 2003, 1:37 PM

Post #9 of 20 (3449 views)

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Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

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You already got good advice. I just want to add that the use of USTED doesnot creates an artificial separation, it rather makes for the first good step in getting to know somebody. Look at it as a good bridge between you and somebody you yet don't know. It is understandably hard for you to manage that because it makes more difficult and already difficult task: to learn another language.
Now, if this can help you understand, consider the case in countries like Costa Rica, where friends treat themselves with USTED. When I first asked a Costa Rican friend why they use this respectfull form for a friend, he nicely smiled and while looking at me said: "Oiga, que no es precisamente a un amigo a quien hay que tratar con el mayor respeto?"

saludos
cabral

salsero support@valangin.com

Feb 8, 2004, 9:17 AM

Post #10 of 20 (3355 views)

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Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

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Hi 21 yr.old Canuck. Being French Canadian and also in the process of learning Spanish, I can tell you that the issue is not exclusive to the Spanish language. French also has "vous" and "tu". Vous is used with older people as well as strangers. You will note, however, that in time, you'll know when to bend then rules with Usted and tu without being smacked on the head. --al

hermano

Feb 12, 2004, 9:03 AM

Post #11 of 20 (3329 views)

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Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

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'Por dondequiera que fueras, haz lo que vieras'. This is the Spanish 'dicho' for the English 'When in Rome, do as the Romans.' This will always stand you in good stead. It is best always to allow the native speaker to initiate the 'tuteo,' until then the 'ustedeo' is appropriate.

Hermano

quevedo

Feb 12, 2004, 7:31 PM

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Re: [hermano] Fueres, vieres

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Un poquito mejor español, tal vez: A donde fueres, haz lo que vieres.

Un saludo cordial,

Quevedo

hermano

Feb 12, 2004, 8:05 PM

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Re: [quevedo] Fueres, vieres

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Usted tiene toda la razón. No cito ese dicho desde hace muchos años. Gracias por notarlo.

Le saludo cordialmente.

Hermano

Guest mozartinasharp@aol.com

Feb 21, 2004, 10:45 PM

Post #14 of 20 (3217 views)

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Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

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Yep, been there, done that. I was at one time flustered by the usted v. tu question, but have since found since then that when I use the tu form, regardless of whom I address, nobody repeat nobody questions me or seems uncomfortable. In fact, some people seem to warm up to me more readily when I tutear. I hope this helps.

Larry Miller
Los Angeles

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Mar 5, 2004, 8:10 AM

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Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

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Hey, there's nothing wrong with deferring respectfully to the culture you're now a part of. For many it's part of the charm of being in here. Relax...stop being defiant and enjoy being in Mexico.

afrodita afrodita_canmex@hotmail.com

Mar 8, 2004, 8:22 PM

Post #16 of 20 (3113 views)

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Re: Hola canuck!!!!! (Uptight About Usted)

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Hola,
I am mexican living in Vancouver...my boyfriend is learning spanish too, and of course he is frustrating about "tu" and "usted"...but, I don't get mad at him for his mistakes..specially when he is learning.
I can tell u that "Usted" was in the past considered as a VERY respectufl way to refer our parents, old people or even a stanger. As i said, it is a way to talk to someone in a respectful way. Nowadays, there are some parents that are cool with the idea that we call them "tu mami" o "tu papi", "tu me dijiste = you told me" ....and also, there are some granphas that are cool too. But, we still keep saying usted to someone we don't know...because , obviously we are not really into each other to know if i like the person or if i can be so friendly. So we refer to them as "usted".

I can suggest keep practicing using the word "usted" with friend's parents, and strangers. They can tell u, "please don't refer to me as usted, refer to me as a TU" so they are giving you the approval for that.

I am from Monterrey, so probably that make some influence in the way we keep our tradition..I meant, Morelia is probably more traditional about it. We are closer to the border to USA (texas) and we are starting to be more open minded.

I hope i helped in some way...seriously i know perfectly what u feel about our spanish!!!! but, believe me, they don't have to get mad at you for that simple mistake.

So, if u need more help , i am here in Vancouver Canada.
cheers,

Biggles

Mar 13, 2004, 7:47 AM

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Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

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I'm on the opposite side of the fence with this one and it really helps put it in perspective...

When I learned Spanish, it was just a fact of life and I never thought twice about it. Of course, that was back in the age of dinosaurs so...:) Anyway, I'm in Texas now and have a lady from Mexico City working for us. Since she's helping me get my (very) rusty Spanish back into practice, we speak to each other a lot. Even though we're nearly the same age and are quite comfortable with each other (very small business and very informal), she would use Ud whenever she talked to me. Finally, I just told her that she could tutearme since it seemed silly to be so informal in English and stiffer in Spanish. It was a bit nice, though, because it showed me that she respected me.

Just get in the habit of using Ud until told otherwise. It doesn't hurt anything and will avoid unintentional insults.

Cheri

sfmacaws

Mar 13, 2004, 3:38 PM

Post #18 of 20 (3101 views)

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Re: [Biggles] Uptight About Usted

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I am also trying to get a handle on the Ud vs Tu thing. One thing I've noticed is that clerks in stores all seem to use Tu with me. Also, all the billboards and ads use it as well. Why is this? I live in Quintana Roo, and I'm well over 50, if that makes a difference.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Esteban

Mar 27, 2004, 5:07 PM

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Re: [sfmacaws] Uptight About Usted

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I have been told by several Mexican friends that it would be very unusual to be wrong when using USTED. If you can't figure it out, use USTED. With your family and close friends, go ahead and use TU but everyone else, you can't go wrong with USTED.

quevedo

Mar 28, 2004, 1:16 AM

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Re: [Esteban] Uptight About Usted

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Me parece correcta esta estrategia: en caso de duda, use usted. Si la persona a la que habla considera otra cosa, le dirá, ¿Por qué no nos hablamos de tú?

Saludos cordiales,

Quevedo

(This post was edited by quevedo on Mar 28, 2004, 1:18 AM)

Uptight About Usted

when in doubt, use &quot;Ud.&quot; form (nmsg.)

Uptight About Usted

you answered your own question....

Uptight About Usted

Uptight About Usted

Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

Re: [hermano] Fueres, vieres

Re: [quevedo] Fueres, vieres

Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

Re: Hola canuck!!!!! (Uptight About Usted)

Re: [canuck] Uptight About Usted

Re: [Biggles] Uptight About Usted

Re: [sfmacaws] Uptight About Usted

Re: [Esteban] Uptight About Usted

when in doubt, use "Ud." form (nmsg.)