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raferguson


Aug 16, 2005, 8:46 PM

Post #1 of 7 (2984 views)

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Question of word order

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I was teaching English, and I had a couple of examples written down, but I noticed that when the Mexican students said the Spanish phrase they tended to change the word order. My question is whether the word order I had was wrong, or just a little unusual, or maybe had a different meaning. I am sure that some of you can cast some light on this. Respuestas en Español son buenas también.

My example in English - I will go to California tomorrow

My example in Spanish - Iré a California mañana.

What the students said - Iré mañana a California.

Richard


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com



esperanza

Aug 17, 2005, 5:27 PM

Post #2 of 7 (2962 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Question of word order

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This is a two-pronged question. I wrote an answer last night but when I clicked send, it vanished. Let's try again.

First is the question of English grammar. Even the most articulate English speakers are sometimes sloppy in sentence construction, leaving dangling participles and misplaced modifiers. Your English sentence is inadvertently a victim of writing the way you think and talk, rather than writing in proper grammar and syntax. I don't mean to sound pedantic (but of course I do), and for casual conversation there's nothing wrong with your English sentence construction. For classroom teaching, however, your sentence should be constructed like this: Tomorrow I shall go to California. Why does it make a difference? The answer is that the adverb tomorrow actually modifies the verb, shall go. Grammar, ugh!

I think you can see that the Spanish-speakers actually used more syntactically correct language.

The other prong of the question (a prong you didn't ask about) is the use of the future tense in this kind of situation. In both English and Spanish, when the future is at close proximity, we don't use the future tense. We use the present tense. The verb you used (iré) is not incorrect. However, the present tense, voy, is more correct. Voy mañana a California. It's called the dramatic present and it's used exactly the same way an English speaker would say, Tomorrow I go to California instead of saying, Tomorrow I shall go to California.

Little details like this make the difference between speaking English (in Spanish) and actually speaking Spanish.




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(This post was edited by esperanza on Aug 17, 2005, 5:28 PM)


jerezano

Aug 17, 2005, 5:36 PM

Post #3 of 7 (2956 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Question of word order

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¡Ay Esperanza!

Ahora sé la razón que siempre he encontrado tus respuestas tan acertadas. Tu sabes la gramatica inglesa tan bien como la gramatica española.

Gracias por la explicación.

Adios. jerezano.


esperanza

Aug 17, 2005, 6:25 PM

Post #4 of 7 (2951 views)

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Re: [jerezano] Question of word order

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Qué mujer más odiosa yo, ¿verdad?




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raferguson


Aug 17, 2005, 8:11 PM

Post #5 of 7 (2941 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Question of word order

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Ok, I will accept the idea that I should change the word order in both English and Spanish.

However, I am trying to teach the future tense of the verb "To Go" or "Ir". What you are suggesting is that the concept that I am trying to express does not call for future tense, but for some other verb form. So, do you have any suggestions about a better example that includes future tense? What I need are equivalent sentances in English and Spanish, as close to being parallel as would be good usage. I don't think that I can expect to teach my students a large number of verb tenses, most of them are beginners and are still struggling with pronunciation.

I should note that "To Go" is only one of the verbs that I am trying to teach to my students, but let's keep the discussion focused on "To Go". I can always go back and review my handout sheets for the other verbs after I know how I should change this handout. For consistency, I am trying to keep each handout similar, including using the verb "will" to form the future tense. You and I know that shall is probably more correct, but I am trying to teach English as commonly spoken, not written, while trying at the same time to avoid bad grammar. I sometimes teach common slang, but explain to the students that it is "muy informal", or "no es correcto".

I could say "Tomorrow, I am going to go to California", or "Mañana, voy a ir a California", but that is some other verb tense that does not seem to be described in either grammar book that I consulted.

I confess to not being a diligent student of Spanish in recent years, and also to being so lazy as to post here in English. Once upon a time I was a more diligent student, and perhaps in the future I will be again.

Richard


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com


esperanza

Aug 17, 2005, 8:47 PM

Post #6 of 7 (2942 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Question of word order

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Ok, I will accept the idea that I should change the word order in both English and Spanish.

However, I am trying to teach the future tense of the verb "To Go" or "Ir". What you are suggesting is that the concept that I am trying to express does not call for future tense, but for some other verb form.

It isn't 'some other verb form'. It's the present tense.

So, do you have any suggestions about a better example that includes future tense? What I need are equivalent sentances in English and Spanish, as close to being parallel as would be good usage. I don't think that I can expect to teach my students a large number of verb tenses, most of them are beginners and are still struggling with pronunciation.

I should note that "To Go" is only one of the verbs that I am trying to teach to my students, but let's keep the discussion focused on "To Go". I can always go back and review my handout sheets for the other verbs after I know how I should change this handout. For consistency, I am trying to keep each handout similar, including using the verb "will" to form the future tense. You and I know that shall is probably more correct, but I am trying to teach English as commonly spoken, not written, while trying at the same time to avoid bad grammar. I sometimes teach common slang, but explain to the students that it is "muy informal", or "no es correcto".

I could say "Tomorrow, I am going to go to California", or "Mañana, voy a ir a California", but that is some other verb tense that does not seem to be described in either grammar book that I consulted.

"Voy a ir" is not 'some other verb tense'. It's a way of using the future tense without conjugating the future verb. You'll find it described in any textbook for students of Spanish.

I confess to not being a diligent student of Spanish in recent years, and also to being so lazy as to post here in English. Once upon a time I was a more diligent student, and perhaps in the future I will be again.

Here are some examples using the future of IR for your class

Algún día de estos, iré a Francia.
One of these days, I will go to France.

Si estudias mucho, irás lejos.
If you study hard, you'll go far. (tú form)

Mi amigo irá a los Estados Unidos en marzo.
My friend will go to the United States in March.

Los papás de mi novia irán a España por el invierno.
My girlfriend's parents will go to Spain for the winter.





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Carron

Sep 22, 2005, 11:14 AM

Post #7 of 7 (2796 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Question of word order

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I am also a teacher of ESL. Although I speak some Spanish, when I teach I use total emersion English. My students do well.

I never argue about various Spanish constructions. And when I teach the future tense I mention, but gloss over, the will options and stress the am going to which seems to be more easily understood and utilized by my students. It also seems to be the idiom more frequently used by English speakers.
 
 
 
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