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Miguel Palomares

Apr 23, 2005, 11:07 AM

Post #1 of 12 (2664 views)

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Diminutives - Baby talk?

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Color me cranky, but I find something very troubling about the rampant diminutives. It's like everything must be cutsy-ized. Baby prattle. Is this done in Spain? Or do Spaniards talk like adults? I'd like to know.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/

(This post was edited by tonyburton on Apr 24, 2005, 7:47 PM)

esperanza

Apr 23, 2005, 11:44 AM

Post #2 of 12 (2659 views)

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Re: [palomares] Fishy Questions

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Troubling? Gosh, if you find the diminutive troubling, what must you think of war and famine and global warming and AIDS and so forth?

There are any number of excellent reasons to use the diminutive. I'd rather say that my small cat is una gatita muy chiquita, if you're blocking my driveway I'd rather ask you, "¿No puede mover tantito su coche?", and I'd rather say that a person--present company excepted, of course--is 'tantito chifladito' than risk offense by saying that said person is flat-out nuts. The diminutive is often used to describe without speaking paragraphs or to take the sting out.

The other side of the coin is the aggrandizing of size. I also have a gatote (a big ol' male cat). Yesterday at the tianguis the fishmonger was selling unos camaronzotes bien grandototes--y sin cabeza, no más (some great big shrimp--and headless, no less).

Granted, all of this is colloquial Spanish as used in Mexico. But I can't see why it would be a problem. Unless, of course, one were tantito chifladito.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Marlene

Apr 23, 2005, 12:37 PM

Post #3 of 12 (2653 views)

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diminutives etc.

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The other side of the coin is the aggrandizing of size. I also have a gatote (a big ol' male cat)

You have just given me a great new "pet" name for my once scrawny little street kitty (who is now super-sized and rules his world). That saves calling him gato grandote. My husband has an unprintable pet-name for him, so this will be much more civilized.

Miguel Palomares

Apr 23, 2005, 4:23 PM

Post #4 of 12 (2640 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Diminutives

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Yes, troubling, because I think it reflects larger problems in the Mexican culture. Perhaps an inferiority complex. After writing my first note, I asked my wife, who is Mexican and has spent months in Spain, and she tells me that she doesn't recall Spaniards talking this way, which is to say they talk like grown-ups.

This widespread use of diminutives is baby-talk, pure and simple. Why do Mexicans talk this way? Is it just Mexicans, or Latin Americans in general? That I don't know.

It's difficult, I imagine, for a native English speaker like myself to get a firm grasp on this odd habit. Using your example of moving the car tantito, in English I would say, "Would you move your car a little, or a tad, or a hair, none of which are true diminutives. They are real words. Moving the car tantito would be like, "Please move your car an itsy-bitsy bit," I think. Or a teeny-weeny bit. That's what a child would say.

And una gatita muy chiquita would be "a little teeny kitty cat," I believe. Baby talk again. A native English adult speaker would likely say a little kitty (or a little cat, if it were adult but small).

In the years I have been living in Mexico this diminutive thing has puzzled me. I'm still puzzled as to why it's so widespread. And, obviously, I don't like it.

Maybe I should move to Spain. My wife would vote for that in a heartbeat. Or a heartsy-beatsy, as she perhaps would say in Spanish.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/

(This post was edited by palomares on Apr 23, 2005, 5:13 PM)

Marlene

Apr 23, 2005, 8:42 PM

Post #5 of 12 (2622 views)

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Re: [palomares] Diminutives

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I firmly believe that diminutives in the Spanish language are in no way unique to Mexico and have nothing whatsoever to do with inferiority complexes. In fact there are many areas, such as Chile, where the useage of diminutives is far more wide-spread than Mexico.

(This post was edited by jennifer rose on Apr 24, 2005, 8:12 AM)

Carron

Apr 23, 2005, 11:22 PM

Post #6 of 12 (2614 views)

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Re: [palomares] Diminutives

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Interesting stuff, especially about using diminutives with pets. Although our primary language is English, we tend to babble away in very basic Spanish at home. I have a pack of five small rat terriers, whom I generally refer to as "mis perritos". Our black cat (who recently had the bad luck to be killed by a speeding car) we always referred to as "gatito", though his official name was Jaguar de la Noche.

On the other hand, my husband adopted a rescue Rottweiler puppy several months ago through our local vet. He is now 6 months old, simply huge, and although we frequently give him his commands in Spanish (bajate being one of the most common, afuera a close second, and no tops the list), we never call him anything in Spanish. We usually refer to him in English as "the big baby" and it fits. Well, I guess that is sort of a diminutive too, isn't it.

I find it a bit much, though, when Mexicans, including my daughter-in-law, call little girls "mamacita".

Miguel Palomares

Apr 24, 2005, 6:25 AM

Post #7 of 12 (2607 views)

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Re: [Marlene] Diminutives

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Ah, so they do it in other parts of Latin America. Interesting. My wife says Spaniards do not baby talk. They get really finicky about the language in Spain.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/

(This post was edited by palomares on Apr 24, 2005, 6:25 AM)

jennifer rose

Apr 24, 2005, 8:07 AM

Post #8 of 12 (2597 views)

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Re: [palomares] Diminutives

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For a long time, referring to someone else's mother as "Tu mama" struck me as asking about their mommy. just too familiar. It took me a long time to train myself just to get over it and do as the Romans do. And every time I slip, using madre for mama. my friends joke that I'm just like their Colombian and Spanish friends who do likewise.

Asking someone to move their car tantito strikes me as a polite form, because the speaker does not want to impose on the guy who's blocking the driveway.

In Spain, people told me my use of mande when I wanted something repeated was poor form, because it referred to demanding something.

Many of my Canadian friends have mentioned that Americans tend to speak more directly than their countrymen. I'll say something like "Give me your lighter, please" instead of the preferred "Would you please allow me the courtesy of using your lighter, if it's not too much trouble." My usual response to them is "Get over it."

The best way to deal with the Mexican use of diminutives is to simply get over it. There are more important things in life to worry about.

bdlngton

Apr 24, 2005, 11:13 AM

Post #9 of 12 (2581 views)

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Re: [palomares] Diminutives

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Colombians use diminutives a lot, so it is not just a Mexican thing. The exception that I found in Colombian Spanish is the use of -ico/ica if the word already had a t in it. For example, Colombians say gatico not gatito, and poquitico not poquitito.

I do not think of it at all as baby talk. Doesn't your Mexican wife use diminuitives? Perhaps that is imposing your English language norms on the Spanish language.

I have read that the Mexican love for diminuitives aswell as their love for miniatures is related to their history. This goes back to the time of the conquest when the indigenous people were thought less than human and used as slaves. In their miserable lives they were thankful for the smallest things, and from this grew the love of miniatures (check out any Mexican market) and the use of diminuitives.
Susy

Miguel Palomares

Apr 24, 2005, 11:20 AM

Post #10 of 12 (2578 views)

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Re: [bdlngton] Diminutives

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I think your last paragraph hit the nail on the noodle.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/

Marlene

Apr 24, 2005, 11:46 AM

Post #11 of 12 (2574 views)

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Re: [palomares] Diminutives

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My wife says Spaniards do not baby talk. They get really finicky about the language in Spain.

It obviously depends on the region people come from just like anywhere in the world. I have a good friend living in Andalucia for many years now who assures me that diminutives are constantly used in her area of Spain. She gave me several examples used there which are very similar to those you refer to as baby talk amongst Mexicans.

Diminutives appear to be used in other languages too, for example in Germany there is fairly widespread use of
-chen, -la, -le, or -li (all diminutives) depending on where in Germany the speaker originates or in Japan, where it is very common to add -chan, an affectionate diminutive rather than -san, an honorific, to every name.

This demonstrates a relaxed or affectionate attitude toward the person (or animal) except for something like "hombrecito" which would be considered an insult and should be used only on special occasions. :-) I think I can safely confirm that the use of diminutives is not indicative of a character or personality flaw amongst Mexicans.

(This post was edited by jennifer rose on Apr 24, 2005, 8:46 PM)

"El Gringo Jalapeño"

Apr 24, 2005, 9:50 PM

Post #12 of 12 (2547 views)

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Re: [palomares] Diminutives vs. Demonstratives

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Bueno, amigos, se me occurió este uso del demostrativo.
"¿Comó se dice un idea grande en español?"
"¿Un gran idea?"
"¡No, es un 'ideota'!"
Así, a veces me siento que estoy rodeado de grandes ideas, ó sea, de 'ideotas'.
Este concepto se puede aplicar a los que no les gusta el diminutivo.
¡Hasta pronto, amigazos!
Roy B. Dudley "El Gringo Jalapeño" See more about Xalapa at www.xalaparoy.com