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saavedra

May 10, 2003, 12:41 PM

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expatriate communities

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Hi,

I'm looking for a liberal/progressive community with a number of expats (I don't yet speak Spanish). I'm leaving the U.S. because of opposition to current policies, so I want to end up in a place with people of similar views, namely, anti-war, anti-imperialism.

Suggestions? It has to be economic, as I am 60 (female), alone, and on a small income.

Muchos gracias for ANY help and guidance here.

Saavedra

Esteban

May 10, 2003, 1:24 PM

Post #2 of 16 (2608 views)

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Re: [saavedra] expatriate communities

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Having lived in Mazatlan for over 3 years, I've found that the ex-pat community is a mixture of conservatives and liberals. I don't think you'll find an ex-pat community anywhere that will agree on anything. It's a very non-homogenous group.

The political parties in power in Mexico, ie PRI and PAN are on the conservative end of the spectrum. The PRD is a little more liberal and does hold some power in specific areas but overall, I'd say Mexico is somewhat governed by people and parties with money, connections and conservative values.

You may want to look at Berkely, California :-)

raferguson

May 10, 2003, 3:35 PM

Post #3 of 16 (2586 views)

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Re: [saavedra] expatriate communities

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I think that the politics would be more to your liking in Canada than in Mexico, try Montreal or a university town. Canada has for a long time been more socialist and has had a better social net than the USA. I think that most of the European countries have a stronger leftist tradition than the USA.

Mexico is a conservative country. President Fox is of the PAN party, which is the party of businessmen and the Catholic church. The PRI party claims to be the worker's party, but they have been closely aligned to the major businessmen, and mostly give lip service to the little people. The PRI is also infamously corrupt, having been in power for 70 years straight. The PRD is pretty liberal, but has not done well in recent elections.

Alternately, just move to a traditional US leftist city, like Berkley, Madison, Ann Arbor, or Boulder. I just read an article saying how people are migrating within the USA to live near people with similar views. In Colorado, Boulder is the liberal haven, while Colorado Springs is the conservative haven. The same thing is happening all over the country.

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

Carol Schmidt

May 11, 2003, 1:35 PM

Post #4 of 16 (2528 views)

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Re: [saavedra] expatriate communities

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San Miguel has a very active peace community and many liberals, though there are outspoken conservatives here too. We had at least six antiwar demonstrations coinciding with all the international antiwar protests the past few months.

SMA is supposed to be second only to Cancun among Mexican cities in being expensive, but it's much cheaper, I find, than Phoenix where I last lived, and Phoenix is nowhere near as costly as other liberal U.S. havens like San Francisco or Boston. Lots of single older women here, plenty to do, fantastic weather, we love it. We went down to the Jardin at 1 to buy the English-language Mexican paper (Herald, published by the Miami Herald), and a parade broke out, out of nowhere. Such fun--it's the kind of thing that happens all the time.

We've managed our first year starting with almost no Spanish and gradually learning--SMA is criticized by many as being too gringo oriented, but you'll still want to learn Spanish ASAP for stuff like medical emergencies, plus it's the courteous thing to do.

Read lots on San Miguel before making your choice. If you're politically concerned, you should know that the Mexican Constitution says that no foreigners can have any say in Mexican politics--you don't criticize the government under fear of deportation. Occasionally such deportation does happen, as with eight young people who took part in a public demonstration on a Mexican policy awhile back. Civil liberties here are a whole different matter than in the U.S. or even Canada. Mexico is extremely complex, and you will be taking on a whole new mindset, not transporting yourself to a copy of the U.S. that speaks Spanish. You have to be very open to accepting and adjusting to a whole new way of being. Just being upset with U.S. politics may not be enough to carry you through.

We left the U.S. for lots of reasons, not just political dissatisfaction. I'm just as angry and involved and writing to my former AZ Congresspeople as often here as I did when I was in Phoenix. You can't escape U.S. politics--it infuses the world. You'll learn even more here about how the U.S. is attempting to remake the world in its own image.

For example, today's news is that the U.S. is offering a deal to make changes in immigration laws in return for U.S. investment being allowed in Pemex, the nationalized Mexican gasoline corporation! The nerve! Understanding just how complex and infuriating this offer is would be part of your new learning--you won't be escaping U.S. politics by moving to Mexico.

Carol Schmidt

Frank Burton

May 12, 2003, 11:38 PM

Post #5 of 16 (2462 views)

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Re: [saavedra] expatriate communities

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Hi, Saveedra,

Though I know from reading Mexconnect's forums for a couple of years that there are conservatives everywhere, the people whom I've heard discuss US politics in the Ajijic/Chapala area are generally quite liberal.

Some people say the Ajijic/Lake Chapala area has the largest community of ex-pat US citizens in the world, though I doubt that anyone can prove it either way. The Lake Chapala Society has about 2,500 members, roughly 2/3 from the US, 1/3 from Canada, and a smattering from Mexico, Europe, and other parts of the world, and I know that there are people from the US and Canada who live here and don't belong to LCS. You can get by with no Spanish at all, tho I highly recommend studying it for many reasons before and after you get to Mexico. Learning the language of the place one lives is a core value for me, and many of the Mexicans appreciate our efforts in Spanish, even when we're making mistakes all over the place.

Suggest you get the John Howells book Choose Mexico, (sixth edition or later) which discusses many aspects of living in Mexico and compares the climate, cost of living, ex-pat community, culture, transportation, etc. of the locations in Mexico where there are significant number of US ex-pats.

The cost of living in the Chapala/Ajijic area is going to depend a great deal on your lifestyle. People who shop mainly in the same places the Mexicans shop (such as the outdoor markets on Monday in Chapala, Wednesday in Ajijic, and Saturday in Jocotepec) plus occasional trips to Wal-Mart, Costco or Sam's Club, and Mega Mercado in Guadalajara (45 minutes away), and have modest housing requirements can live relatively inexpensively here. On the other hand, people who shop mainly at Super Lake and El Torito, medium-sized stores which carry a lot of items imported from the States, and/or who want to live in a prestigeous mostly-gringo neighborhood, probably spend about as much here as they would in many parts of the US. The most detailed comparisons of cost-of-living I've seen are in the January 2002 and January 2003 issues of the on-line magazine, Mexico-Insights.com. They've presented several different family configurations and lifestyles in quite a bit of detail. There is lots of other good information in the archives of that magazine too.

After you've done a bit more research on Mexconnect and hopefully other sources of information, a visit or two to the areas which seem most promising will be invaluable in sizing up the ex-pat communities and the cost of living. Oh, and BTW, I know several women alone here within a decade on either side of your age, and every one of them is bright, energetic, and quite happy with living in Mexico. You might also find the book by one of them, Karen Blue's Midlife Mavericks, helpful.

Good luck in your quest for a new place!

wendy devlin

May 13, 2003, 3:02 PM

Post #6 of 16 (2403 views)

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Re: [raferguson] retirement to Canada-not that easy

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Recently it has come to my attention about the difficulty of foreigners retiring to Canada.

Here on the B.C. coast there is some snow-bird migration.

ie: Americans migrating 'north' each spring to homes in Canada.

Many of them have expressed to me that they would like to live full-time in Canada.

However, around 1991-2, the law changed, making it nearly impossible for retirees to live full-time here. They are currently allowed up to a maximum of 6 months.

They are generally not in suitable categories...to be able to qualify for immigration via the 'point' system, governing the current rules for immigration.

They might be able to qualify under the business clause( something like investing $300,000 Canadian) in a government job creation program.

The regulations apply to ALL people, who are not Canadian citizens.

Hope... that this clears up a possible misconception. Saludos de Canada Wendy

jrice

May 23, 2003, 3:48 PM

Post #7 of 16 (2275 views)

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Re: [saavedra] expatriate communities

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San Cristobal de las Casas in Chiapas is a very conservative town with a largish progressive community and at least a few foreigners -- though many of them are European. Itś also one of the most beautiful little colonial cities in Mexico.

It is a sort of jumping off place for people visiting the Zapatistas (who briefly captured it in 1994) and has some Spanish language schools (might be a good way to sample it) and academic centers. It is among the most liberal (or radical) Catholic dioceses in Mexico, due to the influence of retired Bishop Samuel Ruiz.

Most of the local population tends to be VERY conservative, though.

Jalapa (or Xalapa) , the capital of Veracruz state, might be interesting. Or Oaxaca.

The problem is that there are a lot of left-progressive communities and a lot of expat communites, but my impression is that they are different circles.

It might be worth nothing that U.S. concepts of liberal and conservative and progressive are very different than those in Mexico.

The catholic church establishment is often very conservative, but you also had folks like Ruiz and Mendez Arceo, liberation theologists.

Fox, a business-minded conservative, refused to back the US war in Iraq (Mexicans tend toward pacifism internationally).

Leftists include people who do not balk at calling themselves socialists. Mexico City is governed by a party that absorbed the old Mexican Communist Party and which includes an (elected) former Soviet military intelligence spy as borough president of the geographically largest part of the city.

I know a number of people whose parents came here in the 50s to escape McCarthy.

geri

May 25, 2003, 1:14 PM

Post #8 of 16 (2224 views)

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Re: [saavedra] expatriate communities

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Most expats that I know (I'm a middle-aged woman in Oaxaca) are anti-war, anti-imperialists. There were many anti-war demonstrations and while not allowed to participate in political protests, people seemed to get away with the anti-Iraq ones...many were peaceful, candlelight vigils.

The Mexican protest banners here now have sayings against the "Bushistas." Doncha love it?

While prices, across the board, have doubled in Oaxaca in the past five years, you can live comfortably here on $1,200/month. Much less if you are frugal.

Geri in Oaxaca

johanson

May 25, 2003, 2:03 PM

Post #9 of 16 (2220 views)

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Re: [geri] expatriate communities

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Geri, I have friends on all sides of the political spectrum, I live in both the States and around Lake Chapala. I believe if s survey were taken amongst the Expats, that the results would be very much the same in either country.

That said, my liberal friends and my conservative friends tend to feel more comfortable with their own type and don't always socialize with that "other" group, Often if a member of either extreme were asked they could honestly say, from their perspective, most of the folks they knew and hung out with thought the way they did.

geri

May 25, 2003, 4:21 PM

Post #10 of 16 (2206 views)

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Re: [saavedra] expatriate communities

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Hmmmm??? That might be true. There must be some conservatives in Oaxaca and I certainly don't know everyone, but our community is much smaller than Chapala. Socially, it's divided more along the lines of country/city people, and singles/couples, but not entirely, of course. There are a LOT of Evangelists with whom I haven't had much contact. Might be safe to guess they lean more toward conservatism.

geri

cabo

May 26, 2003, 7:38 AM

Post #11 of 16 (2172 views)

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Re: [saavedra] expatriate communities

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Pluto is a great place for you to live!

ImTootsie

May 29, 2003, 10:34 PM

Post #12 of 16 (2080 views)

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Re: [geri] expatriate communities

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"The Mexican protest banners here now have sayings against the "Bushistas." Doncha love it?"

Not really, no.

Uncle Donnie

Jun 10, 2003, 9:27 AM

Post #13 of 16 (1983 views)

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Re: [ImTootsie] expatriate communities

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You'll love the Chapala/Ajijic Gulag. The local publications (North of the Border owned) are NOT anti-American (by the written denial of one of the editors---wonder why he felt a need to publish that statement?) and some of the comments printed from the left side of the spectrum are cloaked in the vacuous and pretentious "I'm not anti anyone, I'm a citizen of the world" rhetoric. And much of this comes from folks from the U.S.

And those who go on certain other forums for the American vs. Canadian mud wallows apparently serve no real purpose other than stoking their own personal hatreds. Until I moved to this area I didn't realize that I was supposed to dislike folks who looked exactly like me.

I'm a conservative, a Vietnam vet, and proud of the U.S.; the country that a great number around the world are clamoring to live and work in, but still quite happy with my decision to retire in Mexico. I normally don't get involved in these discussions, even with close friends, because there are many more productive and less stressful ways to spend my time and expend my energy.

I have certain medical conditions that are best helped by living in a calmer, less stressful atmosphere than I can find in most Northern areas. One thing that helps with my bliss is the almost total lack of loud-mouthed rude commentators on the "news" channels up North. Why in the world do so many folks insist on introducing snakes into this lovely garden?

Perhaps many are so filled with rage because of personal problems that they just can't relax and enjoy life as it should be enjoyed down here.

Unlike Natalie Maines I'm proud that Dubya is from my home state.

Why don't we all do like the Mexican government and just leave the wars to someone else and enjoy our far too short sojourns South of the Border?

Just random thoughts, and obviously a minority position, but it's mine.

Shameless self-promotion:
http://www.headformexico.com

ImTootsie

Jun 10, 2003, 2:17 PM

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Re: [Uncle Donnie] expatriate communities

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Thank you, Uncle Donnie! I don't get into politics either in my personal life & online. I also don't feel the need to put down others of opposite opinions. Just didn't want to be the Lone Ranger wherever life sent me. Thanks again.

Uncle Donnie

Jun 10, 2003, 4:55 PM

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Re: [ImTootsie] expatriate communities

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De nada.

Shameless self-promotion:
http://www.headformexico.com

Elaine

Jun 11, 2003, 12:03 PM

Post #16 of 16 (1880 views)

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Re: [saavedra] expatriate communities

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Well, if you are trying to find a community of like-minded people, it will probably be very hard to do. Last time I looked, people, being only human, usually have a wide variety of opinions and/or beliefs. Some people change their opinions almost daily depending on what information they may digest. Now, there are places you can move where people are not given the freedom to think differently than the establishment, or if they do think differently, they don't dare to voice their opinions. You know, like Iraq was before the US went in????? Just shop around for your favorite "like-minded" dictatorship.

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