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keith

Nov 25, 2002, 8:39 AM

Post #101 of 120 (2123 views)

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rough translations from the Spanish text my wife uses:

The New Economy

Illegal Agriculture

Planting marijuana didn’t become common in Urique until about 1987. The reasons why more and more men resort to this activity are various and different in each case. The main reason is lack of employment in that only 5% of the population is employed, that is to say that they do work for which they receive a salary. Another small part of the population subsists by self-employment. This is the case with the owners of stores, hotels, and restaurants, those that haul merchandise, and small-scale miners. Those who work in construction find only seasonal work. But that leaves all the adults and youngsters, men and women, amounting to hundred in the town alone, thousands in the county, who can’t work because there aren’t many jobs.

The Sierra Tarahumara is not the only place with this problem, but in this region it is particularly extreme because of the scarcity of tillable land or pasture for cattle. The Mexican economy, although it progresses little by little, is presently in a seriously bad condition. Another factor that enters into the game: our neighbors to the north are willing to pay large amounts of money for the drugs they desire. For this reason, this type of agriculture is sometimes the only alternative. Many of the marijuana planters don’t have the land to plant grains or vegetables.

Another factor that contributes to this problem is that the areas adjacent to this county—the state of Sinaloa, the area around Batopilas, and other areas to the southwest of Urique—have been in this situation for a long time and on a large scale, and it is already part of the lives of their people, and those people have an influence on the lives of the people from around here.

Why does the government allow the cultivation of this herb? It is a hard question to answer for various reasons. It’s not hard to see the obvious ones. If the government tried to impede the illegal agriculture, the economic problems would be so serious there would be repercussions of various kinds. There would be practically no money circulating in the county; it would create sociological problems such as crimes of robbery and other delinquencies, and health problems such as malnutrition. These things already exist, but they could increase dramatically to the point of chaos.

It is an unfathomable problem, impossible to discuss in a public forum. Nevertheless it can’t be left out of a description of the canyon towns in that it forms an intrinsic part of the people’s lives.

El Chutamero (The Pot Farmer) and the Cuerno (AK-47)

“Chutamero” is the name given to those who plant marijuana (just like one kind of sandal is called chutamero because they say the pot farmers wear them), and one of them told me this story.

The chutamero in this story is like any of the others. He has a family, responsibilities, and sometimes he tries to support them in whatever legal way is possible. But when it’s planting time, he leaves his house heading for places away from the well-known pathways taking a blanket for sleeping, something to eat, his tape player, and his “cuerno”. “Cuerno” is the name they’ve given to the semi-automatic rifles, like the AK-47, that many chutameros carry in case someone comes around their plantings with the intention of stealing them.

This farmer had two partners; this business depends on teamwork. For several years he had managed to bring in a harvest, but with different partners. In the year that preceded this story, he and his partners had taken turns looking after the crop, going to the nearby town to buy food and beer, and staying to sleep near the crop when the plants were big. But on this occasion all three happened to be there.

Another risk for the chutamero is the Mexican army, which mobilizes both on land and by air during the time when harvesting is most likely. And this is the problem that the chutamero had to face that day.

One of the partners had just left camp to go to buy something to eat and drink. He had only walked about 40 minutes when he saw something that immobilized him with fear. A group of soldiers was nearing, perhaps not going in his direction, but not very far from it either. His immediate reaction was to run until finding a niche in the rocks where he could hide. Once he found a hiding place, he realized he would not be able to leave it because the soldiers had come too near where he was hiding. His heart was racing, the sweat ran off his face, and he had his eyes full of the salty liquid. He had almost forgotten to breathe, but the exertion had forced his lungs to gasp air. What he should do was run to warn his partners; but how could he go without giving himself away? Another thought made him forget about his companions and think more about his own safety: the soldiers often had police dogs trained to find people as well as drugs. If he passed close by them they would find him without any trouble.

Luckily they didn’t have a dog. They passed by about 6 meters from him, and he could see that they were walking in the direction of the camp. He spent almost two hours there because he couldn’t figure out what to do. The soldiers took about 65 minutes to cover ground that had taken him about 40 minutes. The soldiers weren’t from around there.

But soon the soldiers arrived at a point where the other two chutameros could see them, and they suffered the same panic that the hidden one had suffered. One of them took off franticly running up the hillside away from where the soldiers were coming, but he had to stop when he remembered his only way out was down canyon walls about 200 meters deep. What else could he do? He threw himself over the edge, trying to hold onto rocks and plants, some of them spiny, and soon his hands and arms were bloody. Soon he started rolling downhill, and rolling into rocks he lost consciousness (was knocked out).

The third chutamero, the one who told me this story, had seen his friend run and disappear into the depths while he was running in the same direction, but he had stopped for a minute in his flight. He had thought about the cuerno. If they caught him with that rifle his prison term would be much longer, but in that instant he only thought about the need to hide himself.

But stopping, returning to get the cuerno, and the moment of doubt that made him think of the possibility of losing his life if he fell into the canyon, these also made him lose some important seconds. Now he didn’t have time to run in that direction and he could only make way in the only direction that the squadron of soldiers couldn’t see him from where they were coming. He found himself in some enormous boulders that he couldn’t climb out of without giving himself away. Nor could he go around them without losing precious time. His only alternative was to fall on his face and get however he could into a tight place under a big rock where there was probably a snake or a scorpion. He was just barely able to pull his legs, arm, and the rifle in far enough to be out of sight. When he managed that he realized that he wasn’t far enough away from camp but that the soldiers would hear him if he didn’t stop breathing so loudly. But when your life is in danger, your body can even stop breathing if it is necessary.

He barely had a minute or two to get his breathing under control when he could clearly hear the soldiers’ voices. Now everything was in the hands of fate. If they had a dog he was lost. The next few minutes seemed to him an eternity. He heard the shouts of the soldiers who ran in the logical escape direction, and the orders of the sergeant telling some to search toward the canyon and others to search back in the direction from which they had come. The only reason why they probably didn’t look for him under his rock was because he was so close to the camp that no one imagined that someone could be right there, a few steps away.

After breaking whatever they found and destroying the sleeping bags, the soldiers proceeded to cut and pile up the plants. This took them more than an hour. Then came the fire. They wanted to finish rapidly, because the heat at this time of day was insupportable, and it was increased by the fire and the lack of shade trees.

It seemed to the chutamero that he was there forever. He heard the sergeant say they were only going to go some 300 meters downhill and camp there to eat and to search from around there to see if there weren’t other plantings higher up. At that time his legs were stiff and he was very thirsty.

He had no alternative but to stay where he was, face down, stiff, thirsty, hungry, living the most terrifying experience of his life during the rest of the day and night. He wondered if his friend who had rolled (fallen) into the canyon was still living. He was pretty sure that the one who had left camp was all right because he never heard the soldiers talk about him. During the night he had crawled out in the dark to find a place in the ground among the rocks to bury the cuerno, and when it started to get light he hid himself again in the same crevice under the rock. When he finally decided that the danger had passed he had been among those rocks for about 40 hours.

When he arrived in town the next night he was aching and starving, and he only found (could only find) the lucky partner, and they both assumed that the third one was dead in the canyon he had fallen into, and they planned to go looking for his body the next day. But that night at the house arrived a shadow bleeding from various places wearing clothes in tatters, with its face stained with a mixture of sweat, blood, tears, and dirt, but with a small satisfied smile because it was alive.

The Cow

I’ve heard several versions of this story, but they are all similar. It’s possible I may have missed some things or that I may have inadvertently changed some detail, but the main events will not have been altered.

It started the day that one of the cows belonging to a man from a town upriver didn’t show up at nightfall. The man thought that maybe in the morning he’d find her, like other times, stuck in some rocks near the arroyo. But it didn’t work out that way. The next day passed, and the cow didn’t appear, and at the end of the second day with no cow he began making conjectures. He had already been afraid that those damn kids that used drugs and planted marijuana would come around and rob something from him, being as how they didn’t have anything better to do. He decided to go to Urique to report the theft.

The next morning he got his burro and his gourd for carrying water ready; he threw some peaches on the burro; well, since he was going to Urique, he could sell some, and he had his wife prepare him some tacos. His purpose was to report the theft to the police and, in passing, to buy some groceries. The trail to Urique took four hours of unending downhill on trails where the rocks rolled under his feet like loose marbles, but the men from this land know how to step, and the burros have done it for centuries. He arrived early, he stopped at some Americans’ house to sell the peaches, and, since they bought them all, he didn’t have to stop anywhere else. He went straight to the police station and talked with the chief. The chief communicated the information to the sergeant of the military detachment that was camped on the beach by the river.

The next day twelve soldiers appeared in the town of N . . . and they went in the direction the old man had pointed out. For sure over there they were still eating the rest of his cow. It took them several hours to find a camp where there were some six chutameros who were so surprised that at first they didn’t even move. But one did and out of fear fired his pistol. And right there the big commotion started.

With that shot the soldiers and chutameros alike ran for cover; other shots were fired, perhaps by the soldiers; and some of the chutameros took off running. About eight soldiers chased them, and the others stayed to catch the ones that hadn’t moved. No one knew exactly who had fired, nor how many planters there were, but the big commotion had started. The soldiers returned with two prisoners, and they hadn’t been able to catch the others. Eight soldiers stayed to make camp in that place while the rest took the prisoners back, and returned with another detachment to check the whole area. The next afternoon three trucks with soldiers arrived (in Urique) and not being able to go up the trail, the trucks and four guards stayed down below while the (rest of the) soldiers rushed to the place where the action was.

The next two days were agitated. The soldiers searched houses; they questioned all the men in the place; they moved around in squads on all the surrounding peaks; they put the women to making food; they sent out for more provisions; and three members of the Urique police force also arrived. The people from that place lived some tense days because the representatives of law and order looked at them with suspicion.

And that was the way things were in the little town that had suddenly tripled its normal population in a paroxysm no one ever dreamed possible, when, that afternoon, the lost cow, completely carefree, wandered home.

MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 8:55 AM

Post #102 of 120 (2121 views)

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Re: [keith] related readings

Some facts about Marijuana use:

The effects of marijuana can be categorized into three types; the physiological effects, psychological effects, and the subjective effects. Some of the physiological effects are reddened eyes, increased pulse rate, and a dry mouth (cotton-mouth). The THC in marijuana is believed to change a psychoactive compound in the liver, which may be the cause of the psychological and subjective effects. The psychological effects of marijuana are most often seen in altered perceptions of distance and time, impaired memory and physical coordination, and a heightened sensitivity of the visual and auditory senses. The subjective effects refer to those effects that are going to change from person to person. Euphoria, lowered inhibitions, drowsiness, contentment, and relaxation are generally the desired effects of people who use marijuana. The euphoric feeling generally peaks in 10 - 30 minutes, and may last for up to three hours. People may experience adverse effects from marijuana use such as anxiety and paranoia. The anxiety can range anywhere from mild anxiety to complete panic.

Marijuana, as with all drugs, does have its own pros and cons but, outside the realm of medicine, the cons heavily outweigh the pros. First and foremost, marijuana use or possession is illegal in the United States regardless of amount, and while there are groups who are lobbying to make marijuana legal in the US, they have been unsuccessful. Other consequences of marijuana use are the effects of long term use on the individual's health.

Marijuana contains more cancer producing elements than tobacco cigarettes, may produce a mild physical dependence that causes minor withdrawal symptoms when discontinued, and is potentially harmful to pregnant women. Furthermore, being "high" produces driving hazards through slowed reactions times and decreased spatial judgment abilities. Chronic heavy use may lead to lasting behavioral problems such as loss of motivation and paranoia, and physical problems such as impairment of lung function, and weight gain due to the appetite enhancing effects associated with marijuana use.

However, the adverse health effects are also a very good reason why marijuana should not be legalized. Some of the adverse medical effects are: loss of memory; sleepiness; anxiety; paranoia; breathing problems; increased appetite; addictive; smoke may be more dangerous than smoke from cigarettes; and etc.
Findings so far show that regular use of marijuana or THC may play a role in some kinds of cancer and in problems with the respiratory, and immune systems.
 Cancer
It's hard to know for sure whether regular marijuana use causes cancer. But it is known that marijuana contains some of the same, and sometimes even more, of the cancer-causing chemicals found in tobacco smoke. Studies show that someone who smokes five joints per day may be taking in as many cancer-causing chemicals as someone who smokes a full pack of cigarettes every day
 Lungs and airways
People who smoke marijuana often develop the same kinds of breathing problems that cigarette smokers have: coughing and wheezing. They tend to have more chest colds than nonusers. They are also at greater risk of getting lung infections like pneumonia.
 Immune system
Animal studies have found that THC can damage the cells and tissues in the body that help protect people from disease. When the immune cells are weakened, you are more likely to get sick.

"We know that a substantial number of chronic marijuana users become addicted, and previous research with animals has shown that stopping heavy marijuana use suddenly can cause distinct withdrawal symptoms," said Dr. Alan I. Leshner, director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, National Institutes of Health, which supported this research. "This study shows that marijuana use shares common brain changes and mechanisms with other drugs of abuse."

This study was conducted by scientists in the United States and Spain to discover whether CRF (corticotropin-releasing factor), a brain chemical which increases during emotional times and periods of stress, plays a role in dependence on cannabis, the plant from which marijuana and hashish are derived. Earlier studies have suggested that CRF plays a role in the neurobiological and behavioral effects of withdrawal from addiction to cocaine, alcohol, and opiates, and possibly a role in drug dependence in general.
Rats were injected with HU-210, a potent substance that mimics the effects of marijuana. An analysis of the rats' brains showed that one injection of HU-210 reduced the release of CRF in the amygdala, a key brain structure involved in emotions.
After 14 days of HU-210 treatment, the researchers induced drug withdrawal by injecting rats with the antagonist SR 141716A, a substance that blocks many effects of marijuana. The marijuana-treated rats showed many withdrawal symptoms after marijuana antagonist injection. Moreover, these rats showed an increased release of CRF at the same time they demonstrated dramatic behavioral withdrawal symptoms. Importantly, the specific brain areas that were activated during cannabinoid withdrawal are quite active during withdrawal from other drugs of abuse and play a key role in stress responses in general.

"These results provide evidence that long-term exposure to cannabinoids leads to changes in the brain that activate stress-like responses during cannabinoid withdrawal," said Dr. Friedbert Weiss, one of the study's investigators at the Scripps Research Institute in La Jolla, CA. "These changes in CRF functioning in the brain are similar to those seen during withdrawal from alcohol, cocaine, and opiates, as well as during exposure to environmental stressors," he added.

Dr. George Koob, also from Scripps Research Institute, observed that "the finding from this and other studies that long-term exposure to cannabinoids can produce changes in the brain that resemble those associated with other major drugs of abuse suggests that addiction to one drug may make a person more vulnerable to abuse and addiction to other drugs. Cannabinoid abuse, by activating CRF mechanisms, may lead to a subtle disruption of brain processes that are then ‘primed' for further and easier disruption by other drugs of abuse."
The study was supported in the United States by the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the National Institute of Diabetes, Digestive and Kidney Diseases, both parts of the National Institutes of Health, and in Spain, by the Comisión Interministerial de Ciencia y Tecnología, and Comunidad Autónoma de Madrid.

1)Studies in India, Europe and the U.S. have found that while under the influence of cannabis, short-term memory loss is not uncommon.
2)Chronic users may find it difficult to adapt to new rules & situations
3)Withdrawl symptoms from chronic use may include nervousness, tension, restlessness, sleep disturbance and appetite changes.
4)Heavy use may lead to respitory problems that pack-a-day cigarette smokers can get including bronchitis, and exacerbation of athma.
5)Given a cigarette of comparable weight, as much as four times the amount of tar can be deposited into the lungs of marijuana smokers as in the lungs of tobacco smokers. However, a joint is typically not packed as tight as a ciggarette and the smokable substance is about half that in a ciggarette. In addition, tobacco smokers generally smoke considerably more ciggarettes per day then marijuana smokers do.

These are the reasons I do not think legalization would benefit the Mexican society....or any other society for that matter.

CanMex

Nov 25, 2002, 9:45 AM

Post #103 of 120 (2113 views)

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Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Read Again the Post

Marisol,

I now realize that you have a very big chip on your shoulder sitting on the tip of a needle.

You remind me of the joke about the guy, who would not go out because he felt everybody was looking at him and talking about him, his friend finally talk him into going to the footbal game, at the game when the football players huddlled before the play, the guy jumped up see they are talking about me.

"I will respond to both you and CanMex here. Drugs are illegal in Mexico. Yes, kids sniff paint fumes. Yes, kids do any number of things to get high in lieu of drugs. Kids also shoot up heroine. They also car surf. Sometimes they drive too fast and race on public highways. As a matter of fact, there are kids that participate in MTV's Jackass show and others who think it's "cool" to push the envelope. Some of these kids grow up and never get injured. Others end up as quadreplegics or with severe injuries. The moral of this story is teenagers are still growing and developing and defining their personalities. Social psychologists will cite you the stages of development and explain to you that teenagers are in a stage of development just before adulthood, where they are defining themselves and experimenting with new roles."

Firstly, I never heard of anyone advocating selling Marijuana to minors. Secondly, don't you think it would be more important to try and figure out why these kids act like they do and what to do about it. More and more studies show, that these are symptoms of not having anyone to open to, not enough quality time with their parents, a feeling of not being loved etc... and you forgot to mention suicide, more and more are comitting suicide for the same reason.

"People that smoke pot at parties while young, for the most part mature out of it. Many of the foolish things we do in our youth, we age out of. Even gang members age out of it, so I don't tend to hold people's poor decision making against them. I believe you may age out of your current views on drugs as well, because you seem like a very intelligent man."

OK we can agree on this one.

"This arrogant attitude that both of you have that you know what is best for the world pisses me off at times. It is PRECISELY the privilege that I've been discussing, and it is only more sickening when it is accompanied with the wholesale denial of privilege...albeit it is the latest version of political correctness among many Whites today. The other one, is to call the minority angry or unhappy, or imply that when they defend their right to equality, they are somehow militant. Some approach it by telling people like me that I need to "smile" more, implying that somehow my belief in myself implies that I lead a very unhappy life. Very few like you tend to see how militant you are in trying to ram YOUR opinions on what minorities should do or act like as militant or even at the best, EXTREMELY SELF-SERVING and RUDE. "

Again the chip, it borders on prejudice, we ram ideas but you what?

"I surmise nothing I say here will change that because both of you are in denial about even having the right to tell me how I should approach living in my own culture. CanMex dances around dialogue by saying he simply is "telling me" that I should approach my Latin roots like this....however I should treat others with respect." He doesn't get that he doesn't have the right to "tell me" anymore than I have the right to TELL HIM how to approach being Canadian. He keeps missing the point! "

You either miss the point as well, or is it you just don't want to see it?

"As far as the marijuana debate....and Mexico...I'm not nearly egotistical enough to feel that my views on this are the last word for the Mexican people! As far as the marijuana debate for MY country? I feel that legalizing pot would be a disaster for the reasons I have stated. Does this mean I go out into life in some evangelical attempt to stop all pot smoking? No. As a matter of fact I have friends in Playas that smoke pot and while I won't allow it at my house, I don't preach to them. They are adults and have made their decisions and the decisions they make will or will not affect their lives. One young man I know here though, seems like he has difficulty these days without a joint and just had a baby, so I have my opinions on that, but unless he asks, I don't get involved. I certainly don't hate him for his poor decision making."

Bravo, by the way I do not smoke anything myself, I do not drink alcohol bevs. either and I do not permit anyone to smoke even tobacco in my house, because it is my right not to smoke second hand smoke and the smell stays for ever.

CanMex

Nov 25, 2002, 10:37 AM

Post #104 of 120 (2112 views)

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Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] You are American

Marisol,

Glad to see we agree on something.

"Murder is a problem. It has been illegal for over 50 years. Law enforcement has been fighting the problem for over 50 years. Should we legalize murder because the number of murders have gone up? I mean after all, the old methods we’ve been using have not reduced the amount of murders, right? "

Also glad you brought that one up, most countries, have for a long time figured out that the death penalty, was not a deterrent, and changed the law. They all have lower murder rates than the US, where you have States that still lower themselves, to killing people, for what? To feel good about it, for revenge, for politics?

"It's time to try something else. YES, how about education? How about providing people with hope? How about losing the barriers that provide people with a sense of hopelessness? How about building self esteem through pride organizations geared to help potential victims of drug use? How about losing the holier than thou attitudes that make certain people (in ALL races) feel they have the ability to tell others how to live in their races. How about mutual acceptance and respect?

Do you suppose if people lost the fear and hopelessness, they might not have a need to use drugs? After all, as I keep saying, if one has a basically happy life, then why on earth would they feel a need to alter their minds or numb their feelings? One would assume that people such as this would want to enjoy all the leverage that full brain capacity and the wonderful feelings that accompany good mental health, don’t you suppose?"

Right on, I agree and I think you should add the reasons, I have enumerated in my previous post.

"Question for you...why is it so important for you to convince me that you are right? I have no problem with you having a different opinion than mine, but obviously, we are not going to agree on this."

What I was trying to convince you of, was exactly the conclusion you came to, that the problem was more basic, deeper than keeping Marijuana illegal, which is not even a bandaid on the problem. I still believe that legalizing would still be a good help and would create funds for instituting programs etc...

"Another question...why is it important to Canadians to change Mexican laws about drugs? Shouldn't it be important to Canadians to change their own laws first? "

Again taking things out of context, and spinning. I have never mentionned changing Mexican law, a lot less trying to change it. Can we not discuss subjects without being accused to try and change laws, can't I have my opinion also?

I know of a farmer who will sell an animal, every once in while, behind his wifes back and then runs and gets drunk until he runs out of money, leaving her to take care of the farm. I am sure she would rather he had a couple of Marijuana plants behind the barn, and puff every so often.

MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 11:02 AM

Post #105 of 120 (2103 views)

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Re: [CanMex] Read Again the Post

CanMex,

Honestly, I tend to think you are very phony. You come across with this, sickening sweet niceness laced with barbery jagged remarks consistently. Then, you are surprised when a person reacts to you with the same effect.

What's wrong, my dear? Are you a little baffled that this Latin babe doesn't buy all your b.s.? Or does it really cross your wires that you can't force someone to say what you want them to say? Because you keep going over the same b.s. trying to get me to say something that I don't believe. Honey, get this clear! I'm not going to say anything that I don't feel just so you can feel some air of superiority. That's not in my psychological makeup. In turn, I won't demand that YOU say anything YOU don't believe in either. That's called respect.

You seem to have control freak issues and while that may work on some of the Latinos and Latinas you've come in contact with, you may find that many of us simply find it vulgar, albeit somewhat predictable but still extremely vulgar.

Please stop whining about how a woman that is posting to two clearly biased men of another culture is picking on you. I would say the gang bang effect would more likely have me crying foul than you, but I can hold my own and I surmise this is precisely what pisses you off about me.

Honestly, I have yet to find anything you say either new, challenging, or even slightly interesting as it's the same old b.s. I've been hearing for years with the same old sugar coating to mask the meaning. And THAT my dear, is what REALLY has you upset with me and we both know it!

So let's stop jousting over marijuana and other phony issues and why don't you simply come out and say what you really want to...please? The fact is, you don't like the fact that I don't entitle you to the right to tell me what to do or how to do it, because for some reason, in that simple mind or yours, you feel you have this entitlement. It's called privilege and I'm not allowing it to happen with me. That is what Latino pride is all about and that is why so many hate the idea of Latino pride! Because no sane person would have issue with anyone feeling positive about themself if they weren't trying to exercise some form of control. Spare me!

MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 11:14 AM

Post #106 of 120 (2104 views)

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Re: [CanMex] Read Again the Post

My dear CanMex,

We are writing in a forum about Mexico. Did that miss You? So why wouldn't I assume that you want to change the laws of Mexico, with regards to legalization of pot? Otherwise, why would you be writing about marijuana legalization HERE?

Are you here to discuss Mexico and Latin culture, or simply to argue about issues in general?

As far as the death penalty...have you lost focus on who you are talking to? MY HUSBAND USED TO BE IN A GANG! Do you actually believe that I endorse the death penalty when I feel people have the capacity to change???? Ish Maria!

And as much as you would like to take credit for my post listing the root causes for drug abuse, you may feel a little silly when you realize that I posted this when I first responded to this post...and you claim you've read all the posts! Babydoll, you have issues! If you want to smoke pot until the cows come home, by all means do it! If you want to have privilege by all means, if they allow you that option take it! But all I've said OVER AND OVER is it won't happen with me and I can name a long list of other people it wouldn't happen with, both Mexican and Chicano.

If you even choose to live in denial about things you vaccilate back and forth on, that's your right! But I find it odd that you enter a site about Mexico and insist on speaking about other locations that have nothing to do with Mexico.

CanMex

Nov 25, 2002, 11:22 AM

Post #107 of 120 (2094 views)

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Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] related readings

Marisol,

Reference your post # 102, I agree that Marijuana is damageable to health and mildly addictive. Colas are also damageable to health and mildly addictive, a heavy user, will have withdrawal symptoms, such as headaches and drowsyness etc.. if he/she quits cold turkey.

I believe they should make Cola illegal for minors or at least to younger than 14 years old. Do you realize that a Cola holds something like 3/4 of a cup of sugar and more cafein than coffee. And a Cola for a 3or 4 years old kid, would compare to 6 or 7 Colas to a grown up.

In the Ejido where I live when in Mexico, the Pastor in his sermon, was saying, it's pretty bad when a kid learns to say Coca before learning Papa and Mama.I have seen many kids, just old enough to walk. with a coke in one arm and a pack of cookies or pastry in the other, and that can be early in the morning the day is not over yet.

Now don't jump on me for bringing down Mexicans, because this happens, all over the world.

scott

Nov 25, 2002, 11:30 AM

Post #108 of 120 (2094 views)

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Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] fuel to the fire

How does smoking pot help one's lungs? How does smoking pot help one's mental state? How does smoking pot benefit one financially? How does smoking pot help raise children? How does smoking pot help in any way that would merit the need to force it on Mexican people that clearly don't want it?

First of all, I have no idea where you got the idea we are trying to force it on the Mexican people. But seeing as you brought it up, sure, Mexicans should have the same right to smoke as Canadians should.

How does going to a violent gangster movie help society? How does it help a person to actually pay a lot of money to go see people get shot and killed and see endless violent crime? Over time, how does affect their mental state, and thought patterns?

I would rather see violent minorites banned from being portrayed in Hollywood movies, than have certain drugs classified as illegal. I think movies and tv are far worse than drugs.

Sure, Latinos might join gangs based on need to survive, etc, etc.. But the stuff in tv highly influences otherwise decent white people, and the kids grow up thinking its cool to be a crack head african american in the ghetto. This portrayal in the media of ghetto life, is far worse than the drugs themselves. Why? Because apparently ghetto life is violent. And these kids grow up being what is refered to as a "white nigger".

Drugs themselves are not violent. They just have violent distribution in your poor latino barrios. I think that now, you are trying to claim to know all about white suburban life. Having grown up in your poor and violent latino barrio, what makes you an expert on small town culture and life? Just because you and your people are violent, referring to Latinos in American barrios, that does not mean drug distribution is violent everywhere.

In South-Western Ontario, I assure you that you can buy Marijuana from any number of non-gang associated people. People grow it in the corn field out behind their house. They grow a few plants in their backyard. For personal use, and a few friends. You do not have to be associated with any shady people, in any sense of the word, to get your hands on Marijuana.

Some white guys grow in out in the mountains of BC. When I was camping out in the mountains, in the middle of no where, we ran into a guy doing this. He was very nice, etc, not your typical gangster. Drug distribution does not have to be like in your ethnic barrios. These people then ship their weed Canada Post or drive it out across the country. And then white college kids might distribute it. Its not a big deal, and no one is going to kill you or hurt you.

Perhaps white people just don't have that same tendancy towards violence, that others do. In Ontario, The Outlaws motorcycle gang were big distributors . I assure you, having had Outlaws clubhouses in my city, etc, I have zero fear in my day to day life of running into an Outlaw and having him hurt me. One of their clubhouses was down the street from my friends house. There is no fear in day to day life. Its not like if I wandered into the wrong ethnic barrio some big American city. Its totally different.

The point of this marijuana rant is two fold. First, that marijuana is not bad. And second, what you see in the ghetto is just your experience. America is a very large country, and Canada too, and what you see in the inner city is not the same as elsewhere.

I researched LSD fully before trying it, and concluded it was not bad. I tried it about 4 times, around the time the Matrix was new in theatres (quite an experience). So, I haven't touched it in 2 or 3 years, and you will not convince me it is bad. It harmed me myself in no way, in fact I think it helped me grow, and therefore no one has the right to deny me of that.

The rights of an individual are greater than the rights of latino society at large. By the way, I would never ever touch any illegal drugs in Mexico. Just to make that clear. I am way too scared of the Mexican prison system, it would eat me alive.

CanMex

Nov 25, 2002, 11:46 AM

Post #109 of 120 (2092 views)

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Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] Read Again the Post

Marisol,

I will not address the last issues you brought up, because it is beginning to feel like dancing or playing violin.

"As far as the death penalty...have you lost focus on who you are talking to? MY HUSBAND USED TO BE IN A GANG! Do you actually believe that I endorse the death penalty when I feel people have the capacity to change???? Ish Maria!"

Explain to me, why you would not have as much compassion for a poor guy, who doesn't hurt anybody, who's only crime is puffing every once in a while, on a cigarette containing Marijuana instead of tobacco, which millions of persons do every day.

MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 12:11 PM

Post #110 of 120 (2086 views)

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Re: [CanMex] Read Again the Post

CanMex,

I don’t have the desire to emotionally baby-sit a middle-aged man that chooses to post in a passive-aggressive manner. Especially a man who says one minute that I’m “intelligent and caring” and the next claims “I’ve got a major chip on my shoulder,” because he can’t get me to say I believe something that I don’t believe in. I’ve tried to be respectful to you. Even in the posts where I discuss White privilege (in spite of the fact that I’m HALF WHITE and freely admit there IS such a thing) I have tried to get my point across in as respectful of a manner as I could. In return, I get a temper tantrum from you with every post, that reminds me of someone that desperately needs to get in line for his valium therapy and happy meal from Nurse Ratchett.

First you tell me you can’t figure me out, then you try to analyze me. Are you confused? My dear, maybe you’ve only been exposed to common, ordinary people that don’t stray from the mold. But believe me, there are many people out there that don’t fit into your little precise definitions of how humans should behave according to CanMex. Some of us even have gone through a high degree of introspection and have developed our philosophical outlook for some very strange reasons. For instance, being from two different cultures I may have had some pretty interesting experiences that allowed me to experience the mindset of both the Latino culture AND the White American culture which provided me with some interesting conclusions. Indeed, CanMex, if you and your lovely bride to be have children, you may find that this is precisely what happens and I think you may end up being surprised at some of the discoveries your child may make.

In your mind, you interpret all of this as I hate Whites, which is so far from true it’s hilarious. I LOVE the White side of my family and value them. It’s one of the reasons I’m not opposed to White Pride organizations that teach young White kids to value themselves and demand respect as long as they don’t devalue other cultures. As a matter of fact, I think it’s WONDERFUL that my son has spent so much time researching his father’s Irish background. He is proud of every bit of his family heritage, including his father’s White ancestry and I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time helping him research his roots and creating a family tree for his children some day, which includes his father’s Irish side.

Here’s a kid that not only speaks Spanish and English, but is working to learn Gaelic. He doesn’t do drugs, although he admitted to me that he has tried certain drugs with his friends, and he is opening his own graphic arts business because he had enough self-confidence to direct himself towards his goals. He knows a couple of my old friends that are potheads and he tends to joke about them, but he feels badly that they have lives that are basically going nowhere because he sees the effects of daily prolonged use.

I’m tired of being polite to you when you come across as stuck on stupid and keep oscillating back and forth on how much you love Latinos one moment and then explain that we blame Whites for all our problems the next. The truth is, I don’t blame you for my problems. Why? Because I was fortunate enough to develop the capability to not allow you to have any impact on my existence, when I felt it wasn’t in my best interests. I know also that my mother’s family certainly didn’t cause me any problems and they were extremely loving. They were White. I have many White friends that didn’t cause any significant distress in my life, so I can’t blame them. Nope. Any problems I have can only be blamed on myself if I allow others to control my views or life and I don’t do that.

Do they try? Yup! Do they succeed? Hell no! Why? It all comes back to the recognition that there are morons out there that have a need to control others for any number of reasons, including privilege and the fact that my family-both White and Latino, instilled pride in me for all the various parts that make me up. So honestly, when people like you come along, it’s very frustrating for them, as you’ve demonstrated, for them to have any impact on my thinking. AND THAT TENDS TO PISS OFF THE CONTROL FREAKS!

Now, since we clearly have a lack of respect for one another and out of courtesy to the other folks here, I will be the adult in this situation and stop the posting wars with you. I will continue posting to Scott, because clearly, while we disagree, I have evidence through a private message that he sent me that he really does have reason to care about the Latino culture. I feel he is sincere and I have remarkable respect for the fact that he stands by his convictions, even if we disagree. I'm sure you will whine and cry about how unfair this is or post some other silly little reference but honestly, you are boring me with the same stuff over and over.

Marisol

MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 12:12 PM

Post #111 of 120 (2081 views)

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Re: [scott] fuel to the fire

Scott,

I have work to do so I'll respond to you later. You bring up some good points and I'd love to answer these points as well.

Have a wonderful afternoon!

Marisol

CanMex

Nov 25, 2002, 2:09 PM

Post #112 of 120 (2072 views)

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Marisol,

Ref: #105

"Please stop whining about how a woman that is posting to two clearly biased men of another culture is picking on you. I would say the gang bang effect would more likely have me crying foul than you, but I can hold my own and I surmise this is precisely what pisses you off about me."

As far as I am concerned, I am open to anyone's criticism out there, and I will reply indiscriminately, anytime I feel I want to express my agreement, disagreement, or my input etc. I have formed no alliance, and it is just a coincidence that we happen to be 2 Canadians responding to your Posts.

If you feel threatened, that would explain a lot. I can assure you that my only agenda was to get across, that keeping Marijuana illegal, is not the solution to solving the problem of consumers. This is not a contest to me, it is a discussion.

But if you will excuse me for bringing this up, why would I be more biased than you are? and what does another culture have to do with the law on drugs?.

Ref: 106

"If you even choose to live in denial about things you vaccilate back and forth on, that's your right! But I find it odd that you enter a site about Mexico and insist on speaking about other locations that have nothing to do with Mexico"

I think you may have been talking more about other places than I have?

Ref: #110

"I’m “intelligent and caring” and the next claims “I’ve got a major chip on my shoulder,”

These are not contradictory, I believe your are intelligent and you care about latino youth and your groups, but you are constantly on the defensive and reading in culture, race, femininity, drugs where they do not exist.

"Even in the posts where I discuss White privilege (in spite of the fact that I’m HALF WHITE and freely admit there IS such a thing)"

If by White privilege you mean, that there are prejudices out there, I agree 100%. But you put too much importance on the white part. Being white is not a free pass to everything in this world.

It reminds me a little of my late father who had a 6th grade education, and spent his life saying if I had an education, I can't do this because I don't have an education, I am limited because I don't have an education. He spent most of his life thinking he was being prejudiced because of his education, until the day I sat with him and pointed out that Onasis one of the richest men had an elementary school education and that there were thousands of multimillionaires with no eduction higher than elementary, and reminded of so and so down the street that did not have an education but was well off, then so and so who had a law degree but was working as traveling salesman etc... It's always greener on the other side of the street.

You have white men and women who are prejudiced because of their appearance, because they are female, because they are poor, because they only speak french, because they only speak english, because they are jews, because they are Jehovah Witneses because they are bald etc.. etc...

You talk about being called names, I am a french speaking Canadian, I have been called a frog, frenchy, canuck etc... when I was in the US military basic training, we were 2 french speaking, one from France and myself. I was Frenchy #1 because my bunk was closer to the door and the other was Frenchy #2. Even not so long ago when traveling in Canada, oh your french speaking and from Quebec oh you must be a separatist, ah no, it surprises me etc...

As far as races, on my fathers side my great grand mother came straight from Scotland on a ship at age 16, my many times great grand father came from France, on my mother's side I have no idea, that side of the family never talked about our ancestry. My two sons are half Newfoundlander, they were english speaking, when I came back to Quebec, so imagine english speaking Newfie kids in a French school right at the top of the Newfie Jokes Trend (for those who do not know Newfoundland is a Province of Canada which people have made fun of and make Newfie jokes) My two grand sons are half Inuit (that's eskimo for those who don't know, and by the way, Inuits do not like being called Eskimos that was a name put on them by the white man) my other son is living with an Inuit. My future wife is indigenous Mexican. My 2 sons are bilingual French and English and some Inuktituk (language of the inuits) my grandsons are also bilingual English and Inuktituk and some French. My future wife unilingual Spanish.

From the Artic to the Tropic of Cancer via Vietnam. I don't see how I could be prejudice and not know about prejudice. But then what is that compared to Steven Hawkins, Phd, maybe more than one, who has been in a wheel chair, talking through a voice synthetiser for most of his life, yet one of the top scientist in the world, who was told many years ago that he did not have long to live, but just trucked on, instead of feeling sorry for himself. There are thousands of examples like that in the world.

"but honestly, you are boring me with the same stuff over and over."

I do not want to be disrespectful, but I think you should try and reread your posts, hope you don't get bored before you finish.

Luc

MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 3:53 PM

Post #113 of 120 (2059 views)

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Re: [scott] fuel to the fire

“First of all, I have no idea where you got the idea we are trying to force it on the Mexican people. But seeing as you brought it up, sure, Mexicans should have the same right to smoke as Canadians should.”

Okay Scott, I’ll bite…WHY should they have the right to smoke pot if their society feels it should be illegal? Because you said so? Why is your opinion more important than theirs?

“How does going to a violent gangster movie help society? How does it help a person to actually pay a lot of money to go see people get shot and killed and see endless violent crime? Over time, how does affect their mental state, and thought patterns?”

In answer to your question, it doesn’t. Nor do violent video games. Nor do websites that promote violence. None of these things benefit society and generally they contribute to the stereotyping of minorities, which I don’t approve of.

“Sure, Latinos might join gangs based on need to survive, etc, etc.. But the stuff in tv highly influences otherwise decent white people, and the kids grow up thinking its cool to be a crack head african american in the ghetto. This portrayal in the media of ghetto life, is far worse than the drugs themselves. Why? Because apparently ghetto life is violent. And these kids grow up being what is refered to as a "white nigger".”

Interesting paragraph…especially the reference to “decent white people” vs. the continual reference to “violent latinos.” Also the assumption that ghetto life is violent, which may be true in some cases and not in others. I do agree with you though that white youth do try to adapt to the stereotyping done in these movies and end up looking rather foolish….which goes back to why I do believe in white pride movements. I think at this point, with all the confused white kids trying to emulate bad movies, it’s probably needed, if for no other reason than to provide them with pride in their identity. I’m not real big on white kids that don dreadlocks and try to run around sounding like wanna be Jamaicans or white kids that adopt the ghetto lingo of Latino barrios, referring to women as “rukas” and “hinas” and all that crap. It sickens me! I also think Latino women that put those silly lined, Mickey Mouse lips and painted eyebrows look rather silly and when the White gals copy this I really want to laugh because it looks even MORE rediculous to me.

“Drugs themselves are not violent.” Wrong…there are drugs that if consumed can make a person EXTREMELY violent…and I believe Angel Dust is one.

“They just have violent distribution in your poor latino barrios.” Actually Scott, they have violent distribution in ALL minority neighborhoods and sometimes even in White neighborhoods.

“I think that now, you are trying to claim to know all about white suburban life. Having grown up in your poor and violent latino barrio, what makes you an expert on small town culture and life? Just because you and your people are violent, referring to Latinos in American barrios, that does not mean drug distribution is violent everywhere.”

Wow! Do you really believe this crap? I am not an expert on White suburban life, but I have lived in White Suburban communities. Honestly, I didn’t care for them much for the reasons I stated. I ended up selling a house in Mukilteo Washington in a planned community after just one year because I hated the place, and the place had a golf course and was planning to have a Marina at a later date. It just didn’t appeal to me. I bought it initially because I wanted my son to have a decent neighborhood and school system, but even HE hated it, so we moved. Fortunately, it was at a time when real estate prices were escalating so we came out of the deal pretty nicely.

“Perhaps white people just don't have that same tendancy towards violence, that others do.”

Really? Then how do you account for the lynchings of Black people in the past for simply not being the preferred race? How do you account for the fact that recently, five White youths beat the hell out of two migrant workers for no apparent reason what-so-ever? How do you account for the fact that in Vietnam, many Vietnamese were tortured in the most inhumane manners? How do you account for the fact that there are Jeffrey Dahmers and such a fine list of serial killers who were White. I’d rethink that last statement if I were you, because there is a long history of violence by White folks that proves differently.

Do I believe that Whites are more violent because of this? No. I don’t think you can differentiate violence by race. I think if you honestly evaluate violence, you may find that the ratio of violence throughout history goes all ways.

“I researched LSD fully before trying it, and concluded it was not bad.” May I ask you where you obtained your medical background to reach this conclusion? What research and physiological, not to mention psychological studies did you obtain that helped you reach your verdict? I mean you DID research this right? And what is your background and education that provided you with the skillset to research LSD?

I’m sorry Scott, but my inclination is to believe that you don’t have the proper background to “research” LSD properly. I’m glad you didn’t have any lasting effects from it and I hope you never have any lasting effects from any of the drugs you ever choose to toy with. I’m not out to limit your decision to take drugs in Canada…that’s your business. All I’m saying is that if Mexican people have decided they don’t want drugs legal in THEIR country, then I’m all for them. As far as the U.S.? I will never vote for, endorse or otherwise help the legalization of pot or any other controlled substances. I have too many concerns about the costs of correcting such actions and I don’t like the idea of my tax dollars paying for the treatment of drug addicts or even sponsoring them with social services dollars when they give up on life. What they choose to do with their lives is their business until it affects MY pocket book!

Marisol

pedro naco

Nov 25, 2002, 5:21 PM

Post #114 of 120 (2052 views)

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Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] fuel to the fire

holy smokes i can't believe all the claptrap and baffle garb thats been going in in this thread.

to scott et al-you're talking to a person who is like a christian fundamentalist-you'll never win-give it up and let her whisper her crap into her own ear-maybe one day she'll end up being a happy person of sorts after getting tired of her own retoric.

peace and dobbie dobbie do-puff puff puff-far out man-yu busted my cymbal man-hey jack come back get on the road again.

MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 7:47 PM

Post #115 of 120 (2034 views)

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Re: [pedro] fuel to the fire

Oh my God,

Gotta give it to you, THIS was amusing!

THANK YOU! I can't provide a better illustration of WHY one should opt not to do drugs...he's done it for me. It reminds me of that kid with the peace sign and the quarters...LOL

MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 7:55 PM

Post #116 of 120 (2031 views)

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Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] fuel to the fire

Even better! Shades of Jerry Garcia and Santa Cruz and burnt out hippies who walk around saying, you know maayn. I even think I heard Janis Joplin in there somewhere saying, "here's a song of great social and political import!"

I must admit...if anything EVER made me smile, THAT did. God Pedro! Bless you for bringing back memories of a day when people were COMPLETELY burnt out, self involved and sleeping in beat up VW buses while having free love and offering poppies to police men. I think I'll go try to find something paisely to wear to bed and pretend that free love enhanced my life in some way....ROFL

scott

Nov 25, 2002, 8:06 PM

Post #117 of 120 (2026 views)

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Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] fuel to the fire

I hope you're not judging someone based on their appearance.

MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 8:10 PM

Post #118 of 120 (2026 views)

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Re: [scott] fuel to the fire

No Scott,

That was only icing on the cake compared to his post...LOL

pedro naco

Nov 25, 2002, 8:58 PM

Post #119 of 120 (2021 views)

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Re: [MarisolEnPlayas] fuel to the fire

heh,i came back as a canadian to,eh! and not only that i magically have all my fingers returned too!

man what medicine-whew!

MarisolEnPlayas

Nov 25, 2002, 9:18 PM

Post #120 of 120 (2025 views)

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Re: [pedro] fuel to the fire

Pedro,

You actually had me whip out my oldies...American Woman, get away from meee. American woman, mama set me freee.

And just think, I didn't even try the peyote...LOL I admit, I'm just naturally wacked out....it must be all that misery in my life...or maybe the fact that my doctor writes in my medical charts that I'm an obese "White" woman with pendulous breasts and an appendectomy scar at my pantyline. Or maybe it's because they refer to me as one of those "creative types" at work and that's supposed to be something bad....smile.

At any rate, I'll take a mental note to try as be as happy as the rest of the people in here bitching about things...and maybe if I'm blessed I'll have a personal visit from Jerry Faldwell in my sleep and even Jim Jones or if you're REAL lucky old Jerry Garcia will haunt me with nightmares and I'll wake up and fall to my knees, clutching a marijuana leaf and crying out, "I repent! Pot smoking is the savior to mankind...oops, and womankind." Cause we all know I wouldn't want to be sexist, right?

But then, I'd always have to progress into a Yuppy after that and damn! That would be awful for me, because I'd have to vote for George Bush Jr. and actually put on some Tammy Faye Baker makeup and I'm sorry, but I draw the line at blue eyeshadow!

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