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Tortilla man

Feb 18, 2003, 7:11 PM

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Two questions to all posters

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Hi, I've been lurking these forums for a long time, and this is my first post. I have two questions for you folks:

1- Do you know basic Mexican History?

2- Do you effectively understand and speak spanish?

I've been learning spanish and Mexican History for a while. I think it will help me to understand Mexican Culture and get along better with Mexican people. Besides, I now understand what they are saying, and I am a lot less suspicious about them. As far as now, it has allowed me to get rid of some prejudices and misconceptions I had about Mexico and Mexicans. And I feel a lot more comfortable interacting with Mexican people because of that. It's true, ignorance breeds hatred. I used to imagine a lot of things before I learned spanish. It is good to know how many requirements and bucks it will take to live in Mexico, but it's not enough. Believe me.



johanson


Feb 18, 2003, 8:58 PM

Post #2 of 28 (3875 views)

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Re: [Tortilla man] Two questions to all posters

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What beautiful questions. I think we would all be better off if we could answer yes to both of them. The trouble is too many of us don't understand enough Spanish history or Language.

In fact I have friends who have been here for 20 years who don't speak the language. I speak a little Spanish and know a little bit about the history. I would have even a better time down here if I could speak the language better and if I had a better grasp of not only the history of Mexico but it's culture as well.


raferguson


Feb 18, 2003, 10:21 PM

Post #3 of 28 (3809 views)

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Re: [Tortilla man] Two questions to all posters

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I know basic mexican history, partly due to visiting museums. The most interesting history museum, to me, is the museum of interventions in Mexico City. It is amazing to see how many times various foreign powers (especially the USA and France) invaded Mexico during the period 1810 to 1920 or so. Easy to understand their foreign policy once you know the history. "The respect of the rights of others is peace" is probably Benito Juarez's most famous quote, a natural result of the interventions that took place during his era.

I speak and read Spanish pretty fluently, if not perfectly. I make a habit of looking at a Spanish language newspaper every day, I usually have a couple of Spanish language CDs in the CD changer, etc. I can carry on phone conversations in Spanish, so I do pretty well. I started studying Spanish when I was about 30, so you can learn it also, you just need to put forth the effort. Tutors help also.

It is certainly true that your relationship with someone is different if you speak their language. Even more so, it is hard to have a relationship with someone if language is a barrier to communication.

I know that people often say that ignorance breeds hatred. Sometimes familiarity breeds hatred. I know someone who dislikes American Indians because her exposure to them growing up was that they were drunks and thieves. She would today drive 100 miles to avoid an Indian reservation. All all Indians drunks and thieves? Of course not, but if most of the Indians that you met growing up were drunks and thieves, no pretty idealistic ideas or cultural sensitivity classes are going to change your mind. (Because there were almost no blacks in the town she grew up in, she has no strong feelings about blacks.)

Think about the hatreds in the ex-Yugoslavia. The Serbs, Croats, Muslims and other groups lived in the same towns, spoke the same language, etc. They still hated each other enough to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing. (I understand that the Serbs previously called their language Serbo-Croatian, but now insist that they speak Serbian). Getting to know another culture may not produce peace, and could even aggravate historical conflicts. There is a lot of wishful thinking around the idea that getting to know other groups will prevent conflict.

I like Mexicans, always have. Mexicans have their own worldview and cultural traditions. Some of the aspects of their culture are good, some are bad. But you could say that for Americans as well. Some people would prefer not to mention the bad with the good.

I think that Mexicans have a pretty good reputation in the USA. Most people would agree that they tend to work hard and value family. On the negative side, they may be regarded as not interested in education, and not law-abiding. To some extent, all of these stereotypes are at least partially true.

Stereotypes are often criticized as bad and misleading, but many have some basis in fact, and even statistical support. It is hard to counter a stereotype if it is partially true.

Sorry for getting carried away on discussing ethnic issues.

Richard


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com


scott

Feb 18, 2003, 10:34 PM

Post #4 of 28 (3791 views)

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Re: [Tortilla man] Two questions to all posters

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No me interesa la historia del pais, pero si entiendo el idioma mas o menos. Las primeras minutos son muy dificiles con gente con quien nunca he hablado antes, pero con mis amigos no hay muchos problemas. Puedo communicar si lo necessito hacer, pero todavia es muy dificil cuando entro en una tienda, etc. Estoy escribiendo sin ver a ningunos libros, etc, este es mi nivel de espanol. Y tambien estudie 15 horas en una escuela aqui en morelia, pero soy codo y a mi no valen los cientos pesos cada hora. Estudie con libros cuando estaba en Canada, y platice mucho en IRC (chat), pero desde vine a mexico casi no he estudiado nada. Pero si estoy aprendiendo mucho, pero es que siempre estoy con gente quien solamente habla espanol. Casi no conozco a otras personas quienes hablan ingles, solamente mi tia y en el internet. Todavia pienso completamente en ingles, supongo que es mi lengua nativa, pero tambien porque uso la computadora muchas, muchas horas diario. Con la gente aqui hablo espanol, y nada mas. Pero creo que nunca voy a olvidar ingles o pensar en espanol todo el dia. Bueno, solamente estoy escribiendo este mensaje para que ustedes saben mi nivel de espanol.


JudyinKC

Feb 19, 2003, 6:45 AM

Post #5 of 28 (3774 views)

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Re: [Tortilla man] Two questions to all posters

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1. Yes, my husband and I both know somewhat at least Mexican history and culture.

2. My husband and I both speak Portuguese fluently and he speaks Spanish pretty well. I understand a lot more than I speak, but I am working on it. Once our move is complete, my pace of learning will accelerate as we will have little association with English-speaking people.


(This post was edited by JudyinKC on Feb 19, 2003, 6:46 AM)


Carole

Feb 19, 2003, 7:04 AM

Post #6 of 28 (3753 views)

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Re: [JudyinKC] Two questions to all posters

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Living in South Texas, Mexican history is intimately linked to my home place (home o' the Alamo.) Since we began traveling in Mexico, its history has become my passion. Hence I've discovered many differences in my perceptions formerly based on what I learned in public school. And my high school Spanish has benefited me, finally. I love both ancient and modern Mexican history, reinforced by the many books recommended on this forum. Refining my skill in the language is an ongoing process.


keith

Feb 19, 2003, 9:23 AM

Post #7 of 28 (3701 views)

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Re: [Carole] Two questions to all posters

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1. Yes. I'm about through The Course of Mexican History (I was just telling my wife this morning, "Wow, they ought to call it the CURSE of Mexican History). I recommend it for those wanting a concise history. Readable, objective.

2. Si.


Mereja

Feb 19, 2003, 3:09 PM

Post #8 of 28 (3654 views)

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Re: [Tortilla man] Two questions to all posters

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These are very important questions. And I think depending on the answers can have a lot to do with whether people will be happy in Mexico or not. If you are trying to learn Spanish and make an effort to talk to people in Spanish you will gain their respect and you will also be showing respect to the person.

The other day I got into a conversation with someone that was describing one of his trips to Mexico. He said some little kids would come up to him selling gum. So he had a roll of pennies and nickels and starting handing them out to the children. Then he threw them all out onto the ground, so all the little kids scrambled to get the coins. He thought he was doing them a favor. I thought to myself, (but I didn't say anything to him) how would I have felt if that was my son or daughter scrambling to get a few pennies that was tossed to them like a bone to a dog. The guy thought he was doing them a favor. It is very important to a Mexican to be treated with respect and to treat their children with respect.

Does anybody else see anything wrong with this?

History:

Here is a link to an interesting story. I just started reading it, so I can't give an opinion about all of it. But, it looks interesting to me. Maybe some of you will enjoy it.

http://www.azstarnet.com/azlife/Day1.html


alex .

Feb 19, 2003, 3:40 PM

Post #9 of 28 (3646 views)

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Re: [Tortilla man] ignorance breeds hatred

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and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. My favorite newbie phrase includes the words "the warmth of the Mexican people". People are people everywhere, and some learn this the hard way.

Almost forgot:
1. No, but then I don't know US history either.
2. Yes, but my English is still more gooder than my History.

Alex


(This post was edited by alex . on Feb 19, 2003, 3:44 PM)


Georgia


Feb 19, 2003, 4:47 PM

Post #10 of 28 (3628 views)

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Re: [Tortilla man] Two questions to all posters

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HI, here's my two cents:

Language: bilingual: Spanish/English

History: yes/no: Mexico has one of the most confusing histories of any of the Latin American countries I have studied. It is a series of occupations and annexations. If I were Mexican I would prohibit all ownership of land by anyone other than Mexican citizens. I applaud their ability to forgive the past.

P.S. I was a Latin American studies major for my M.A. in Hispanic Studies/Language. I studied the history of most of the Spanish speaking republics. Mexico's is, by far, the most convoluted. I applaud the average Mexican who watched all the revolutions come and go and persevered in spite of it.


Dave C.

Feb 19, 2003, 8:16 PM

Post #11 of 28 (3595 views)

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Re: [Tortilla man] Two questions to all posters

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1. I took a Mexican history course in college about 20 years ago, and I've been watching news in Spanish for about 25 years, so I have a simple knowledge of the history.

2. I've been speaking Spanish for 31 years since age 13, and have studied all of the major Romance languages and some minor ones, but Spanish is the only one I speak fluently and write properly, since it's the only one I have much use for here in Los Angeles.


jturpen

Feb 21, 2003, 6:10 PM

Post #12 of 28 (3533 views)

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Re: [Tortilla man] Two questions to all posters

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I moved to Southern California (little town called Paramount when I was in the third grade) from Indiana. My neighborhood was called "dog-patch" by the locals and across the main street was "el barrio". All the kids from both neighborhoods went to Roosevelt Elementary school. Mexican kids (some of whom had families in California for many many years) non-mexican kids all played together on the school grounds and shared classroom experiences. Timeframe here is late 1950's. I think that there were many cultural happenings that the teachers shared with students about Spanish History in So.CA. ... not too much mexican history (other than fr Junipero Serra stories).
Spanish was a language that I heard and sorta spoke and understood with my friends, Raul Rojas, Johnny Ologie, Rudy Martinez and my best pal Henry Parral (also known as Enrique by his mom). I'll never forget when Henry's mom fed me chorizo for breakfast ... I was sick all day ... way too spicy.
As I approach retirement, I have found myself becoming very much re-interested Mexico ... not the vacation Mexico or the "Mexico Disneyland" found some places ... but the all of it Mexico. I have for the past three years been reading and researching the history, the language, the geography, the politics and the culture. Sometimes I think I know stuff and sometimes it feels a long way away.
From the few friends I have here where I live, who are Mexican or have a connection to Mexico, the impressions are very unique.
I am anxiously planning several trips and plan to retire in the Nayarit area. I am conversant in Spanish and hope that continued study improves that part of the equation.

Thanks for the questions.

Joe


sparks

Feb 21, 2003, 6:52 PM

Post #13 of 28 (3523 views)

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Re: [Mereja] Two questions to all posters

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My similar experience was in Asian ports back in the early 60's. After being on "Formosa" patrol (now Taiwan) we would pull into Kowloon harbor (reaked of unfiltered humanity) and these little kids would paddle up on bamboo rafts and offer to dive for coins. Rightly so, they would flip us the bone when we tossed pennies. Tough little monsters but were just like poor kids the world over.

Likewise my experiences during that period in TJ were naive and somewhat disrepectful ... but then what does a dumb teenager do in a whorehouse (joined Navy at 17).

Thankfully my world/human view has changed


sparks

Feb 21, 2003, 7:04 PM

Post #14 of 28 (3519 views)

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Re: [jturpen] Two questions to all posters

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I was born and raised in California and what little State history I remember ... there was alot about the Mexican relationship. Watsonville was full of Mexicans in the 40's ... moved to Yakima Washington in the 50's and again many Mexicans. I just wish history was not so shallow back in those days ... maybe it still is. It's a rich history that is not dealt with. Anyone have book suggestions.


clsoto56

Feb 21, 2003, 8:06 PM

Post #15 of 28 (3514 views)

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Re: [Sweet for Pedro] Two questions to all posters

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Do you still live in yakima...........I live in Washington also...........


sparks

Feb 21, 2003, 8:24 PM

Post #16 of 28 (3501 views)

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Re: [clsoto56] Two questions to all posters

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Sorry we were playing with NAMES ... now live in Seattle. I like to drive over to Yakima and the area in summer. Reminds me of parts of Mexico and the culture predominates.


johanson


Feb 21, 2003, 9:56 PM

Post #17 of 28 (3494 views)

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Re: [sparks] Two questions to all posters

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I'm listening to the audio from KING TV 5 (Seattle for those of you who don't know) here in Ajijic while typing this post. I don't get all of the channels only 4,5,7,9, & 13 from Seattle and of also several from Victoria and Vancouver.

I too am from WA and maintain summer home in Skagit County.

PS if my picture shows me in a suit, it's part of a posting joke


(This post was edited by suit for PEDRO on Feb 21, 2003, 9:58 PM)


Oracle

Feb 22, 2003, 5:25 AM

Post #18 of 28 (3489 views)

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Re: [Tortilla man] Two questions to all posters

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Your post smacks of a sense of superiority. I could similarily state that once you get to know the gringo mentality and perchant for manifest destiny, then understanding their motivations (including Iraq) is easier. Once I understood their culture, or lack thereof, I too was more comfortable in their country and in fact once I learned their language I too was saved with enlightenment. Slight difference though is that money is enough to live in the US. There tit for tat.



"Hamburger Man"


CanMex

Feb 22, 2003, 5:55 AM

Post #19 of 28 (3474 views)

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Re: [Oracle] Two questions to all posters

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"Your post smacks of a sense of superiority. I could similarily state that once you get to know the gringo mentality and perchant for manifest destiny, then understanding their motivations (including Iraq) is easier. Once I understood their culture, or lack thereof, I too was more comfortable in their country and in fact once I learned their language I too was saved with enlightenment. Slight difference though is that money is enough to live in the US. There tit for tat."


Talk about the pot, calling the kettle black!

What a joke!

Just as real as your signature.

Luc


(This post was edited by CanMex on Feb 22, 2003, 5:56 AM)


Oracle

Feb 22, 2003, 6:34 AM

Post #20 of 28 (3466 views)

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Re: [CanMex] Relax

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Oh come on. Relax. Went slightly over the line. Just like to stir the ire of "you folk" from time to time. Afterall, I am enttiled to my opinion regardless of popularity. Also, I lived through the "frito bandito" era of US culture and sentiment and perhaps a stinging criticism over somewhat unthougtful literary enlightment postings on this board is not so unjust. So chill, no one is out to get you!


wendy devlin

Feb 23, 2003, 10:11 AM

Post #21 of 28 (3405 views)

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Re: [Oracle] Frito bandito era

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OK, I'll bite.

(Not you oracle...only your reference;^)

What is the 'frito bandito era'?

I'm a little familiar with Mexican history but not too strong in the Mex-American history department. Thanks in advance Wendy

P.S. the photo of the suit...is a joke...but anyone can 'suit' up.


jturpen

Feb 23, 2003, 10:24 AM

Post #22 of 28 (3399 views)

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Re: [wendy devlin] Frito bandito era

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Hola Wendy ...

The 'frito bandito' reference I think comes from an advertisement effort from the FritoLay corporation. The character was a cartoon of a ridiculous looking fella who said in a 'sloshy sounding spanish accent,
' I yam dee freeto Bandeeto ... ' blah blah blah and that was supposed to get us to buy the product.
Because most of us had no clew as to the negative image the damn thing ran for a fairly long time.

Is that the one you refer to Oracle?

Joe


Oracle

Feb 23, 2003, 2:34 PM

Post #23 of 28 (3371 views)

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Re: [jturpen] Frito bandito era

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Gee you got it Sherlock Holmes! That is the orign and stigma of the reference. Thus when I hear someone exclaim that they have figured out how to "accept" Mexican culture, while living in Mexico, I am dumb-founded by the ignorance and arrogance implicit in such a statement. So the mystery is solved. Thanks to Sherlock "Joe", and to you Wendy for asking. Also, Wendy sorry I dont have a picture, but I too look quite sexy in a suit. :-) "Live long and prosper... ", sorry can't do the Vulcan handshake...



Oracle "espousing the Mexican view" albiet sometimes quite rudely.


Elaine


Feb 23, 2003, 3:25 PM

Post #24 of 28 (3355 views)

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Re: [Tortilla man] Two questions to all posters

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1. I only know the basics. We plan on learning more when we go to Mexico.

2. Again, only the basics, the courses I have taken would never give me the right to say that I "speak" Spanish. At least not and be able to keep a straight face!

FYI, I have some dear friends who are from Mexico and further south. They have lived here illegally for several years. They don't speak a word of English and probably know less about our history than I know of theirs. Guess what? We don't hate each other!

***********************************************************
When one door closes, another opens. Some people are so busy looking at the door that has closed, they don't see the door that has opened. Keep looking for those open doors.
***********************************************************


ET

Feb 23, 2003, 3:44 PM

Post #25 of 28 (3349 views)

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Re: [jturpen] Frito bandito era

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In Reply To
Joe Turpen writes:
"The 'frito bandito' reference I think comes from an advertisement effort from the FritoLay corporation. The character was a cartoon of a ridiculous looking fella who said in a 'sloshy sounding spanish accent,
' I yam dee freeto Bandeeto ... ' blah blah blah and that was supposed to get us to buy the product.


Although in 20-20 hindsight the Frito Bandito is a horrible stereotype, he's noteworthy in that:
- the original artwork (he mutated over time) was that of none other than Tex Avery, creator of Porky Pig, Daffy Duck, and a number of lessor cartoon icons. Avery, btw also did a number of the original "Raid" commercials.
- the "sloshy sounding spanish accent" was the voice of Mel Blanc, the voice of Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig, Daffy Duck and hundreds of other classic cartoons by Warner Brothers and others.



The Frito Bandito song, by the way, is sung to the tune of Cielito Lindo.....
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