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Hound Dog

Oct 15, 2010, 9:29 AM

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On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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The transition from FM-2 to "Inmigrado" is a procedure I think requiring some discussion in light of the new procedures mandated since last April which are highly computerized. Our experience took place in Guadalajara so yours may differ as these procedures may be subject to local modifications.

In Guadalajara you must go to the Palacio Federal on Alcalde in Centro and it´s pretty easy to find so do not worry about that but try to be there on a week day by or before 10:30AM or you may not be assigned a number by ticket which is critical since they close at 3:00PM and may stop handing out tickets as early as 11:00AM and then you will have to return another day.

Do not go there unless you have already completed your application forms already on line on your personal computer. If you have not completed the application on line and saved it to the site they will simply demand that you return after having done so.

The INM office on the fourth floor of the Federal Building is a zoo. Overcrowded, incompetently run, disorganized, far too small for accomplishing that function for which it has been designated. A nightmare. Hell on earth but there it is and there you are. Get used to it and hope there is no fire.

There is one clerk - the fat broad on the right - who speaks no English and will make no attempt to do so so if you get her by the luck of the draw you are destined to spend a bit of time in hell wheher or not you speak Spanish since she may have already have categorized you as a fool and you will just have to overcome this by being more assertive than she will be. Good luck.

Does anyone have any interest in this? If so, let me know and I´ll say more.


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Oct 15, 2010, 12:40 PM)



cbviajero

Oct 15, 2010, 3:02 PM

Post #2 of 56 (3270 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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For 5 years i've made my yearly visit to immigration in gdl and have always found the personel to be helpful and even patient,it is something of a zoo but have you ever been to the DMV in california?It does help if you speak the language of the country you have chosen to live in.


Vichil

Oct 15, 2010, 4:22 PM

Post #3 of 56 (3240 views)

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Re: [cbviajero] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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Well I can assure you that speaking Spanish has nothing to do with it. I happen to speak Spanish and one of the women there is a nightmare to deal with in Spanish.

The woman from information was helpful and nice, the other woman called Fabiola at the drop off was helpful and nice but the no name witch was horrible.

I observed the scene for two hours last week when she automatically kicked out people to information before they had the time to say anything simply because she assumed they spoke no Spanish just because of their racial profile.

I presented my papers after I had received the information from the seminar from the bosses of immigration in Chapala and after checking the inami site. She told me I was missing the bank statements and that I had to go to information to find out what I needed. Since I could not get the information and get more papers that day,I bit my tongue and went home to make copies of every paper I could think of although I had been assured by the immigration people I had everything I needed.

Yesterday we went to information and waited a couple of hours to be told I had all the papers I needed and that no bank statements were necessary to get to the inmigrado status. I told the lady from information that the drop off woman demanded my bank statements and a bunch of other copies. The information lady told me that papers were not sent to Mexico City any longer, that copies were not necessary and gave me a copy of the requirements from the INAMI site.
I then joined my husband at the drop off line and gave the woman what I had given her the previous week. I first said buenas tardes...no answer but she called Fabiola and told her in Spanish to tell me in English to go to information. Why in English - it beats me since I am French ... I told Fabiola in English, thank you for your help but we had just spoken to information so she left.
The rude woman again asked for all kinds of papers she did not need, at that point I told her NO and a few other things I will not repeat here.

The woman is an ignorant bully.

This morning I checked the site to make sure she had processed our papers and they were processed.

I was nice and spoke Spanish and was treated like dirt so I became very nasty in Spanish and somehow she got the message and became much nicer.

Do not assume people living in Ajijic do not speak Spanish or other languages, that makes you pretty ignorant as well.


(This post was edited by Vichil on Oct 15, 2010, 4:33 PM)


Reefhound


Oct 15, 2010, 5:40 PM

Post #4 of 56 (3214 views)

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Re: [Vichil] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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What possesses people like that? Are they lazy and trying to reduce their workload or do they actually get off on jerking people around? I wonder what she does with all those copies that are not needed?


Hound Dog

Oct 16, 2010, 7:17 AM

Post #5 of 56 (3133 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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What possesses people like that? Are they lazy and trying to reduce their workload or do they actually get off on jerking people around? I wonder what she does with all those copies that are not needed?

I can answer that question, RH. I had the misfortune to start my career in banking as a field examiner for a couple of financial institurions´ regulatory agencies - yes, the same agencies that failed to spot the S&L and, later, commercial banking crises coming down the tracks. I particularly like the name of my latter two-bit position; to wit: National Bank Examiner; Comptroller of the Currency; Regional Administrator of National Banks; 12th National Bank Region, San Francisco; Santa Rosa Sub-Region. The job didn´t pay much but, man, what a title. Hell, most of the people with whom I went to high school couldn´t even spell that. It seems that when certain powerless middle class folks get high falutin functionary titles they immediately insert their heads where the sun don´t shine. Some become inrtoxicated with the power of the agency they never imagined having and then the public (or bank officials or whomever is being intimidated) who have to deal with them have hell to pay. Later, when I became a commercial loan officer, I saw the other side of that spectrum and learned the essential lesson that the power that underlies the clown administering same at times creates monsters in shiny light green suits adorned with narrow ties decorated with bacon grease.

I have a theory and that is that this woman charged with receiving the somewhat routine and precisely defined paperwork from foreigners seeking residency status in Mexico, has been there at that desk for eons and, thus, cannot be canned. In the past this may have been no big deal as most visa applicatants in Guadalajara were Spanish speaking immigrants from hispanic countries since INM had a sub-regional office in Chapala that handled a large percentage of foreigners often not conversant in Spanish. Before closure of the Chapala office, this woman could call on her adjacent English speaking colleagues for assistance when confronted with applicants who only spoke English but, now, with the Chapala office out of business, she was suddenly besieged with Lakesiders many of whom spoke no or rudimentary Spanish so she panicked, The solution? Send them off to the information line immediately without so much as an inquiry as to whether or not they spoke Spanish simply based on their visual profiles as "people who appeared to be likely to have an inadequate grasp of the mother tongue". Never mind simply learning how to inquire as to whether or not they speak Spanish before jumping to conclusions.

To make the situation with this particular clerk even worse, she has not bothered to acquaint herself with the requirements for applicants to qualiy for "inmigrado" status. The rules on the computer under the new system as confirmed by the INM information cleck on duty do NOT require proof of income to qualify for inmigrado status and, since applications are no longer sent to Mexico City (a fact they have failed tio communicate with this person), they don´t need extra copies of documents for their Guadalajara duplicate files. They also do not need all fees paid in advance as she demands but I would not mess with that since it´s not worth the hassle.

The thing to remember if, by the luck of the draw you find yourself face-to-face with this inciompetent functionary, is to stand your ground when she tries to shuffle you off to the long and slow-moving information line which will certainly mean that you will have to return another day. You don´t want to have to go back to that hell hole another day if you can help it. Remember the Jean Paul Sartre play No Exit, the premise of which was hell is other people? Well, that´s the INM Guadalajara office on any given morning they are open.

As soon as I get that "inmigrado" card, I´m applying for Mexican citizenship. I tire of being a second class resident in the country I have chosen as my permanent home. I am Alabamian by the accident of birth, I am a resident of Mexico by choice. That should tell you where I stand on these matters.


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Oct 16, 2010, 7:49 AM)


cbviajero

Oct 16, 2010, 10:41 AM

Post #6 of 56 (3087 views)

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Re: [Vichil] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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I think its safe to assume that the majority of gringos living in ajijic do not speak spanish very well if at all,I could be wrong,lets take a poll.Just look at all the activity in the learning spanish forum.
my experiences at gdl immigration were different from yours.


esperanza

Oct 16, 2010, 10:48 AM

Post #7 of 56 (3082 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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Quote
As soon as I get that "inmigrado" card, I´m applying for Mexican citizenship.

Dawg, why did you not apply for citizenship directly from finishing five years with an FM-2? Unless I am mistaken, you have taken an extra step.




http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Hound Dog

Oct 16, 2010, 10:50 AM

Post #8 of 56 (3080 views)

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Re: [cbviajero] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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It is the tenth time I do the paperwork for the immigration and it is the first time I have been treated that way but it is still very real.
The woman has a obvious problem: she does not know the procedure for Inmigrado and is sick of dealing with people who do not speak Spanish or come without knowing what papers they should bring. Not a good reason to treat all the white skin people that way.
By the way she tried to do the same thing to a white skin Colombiano who told her where to go as well....


cbviajero

Oct 16, 2010, 12:22 PM

Post #9 of 56 (3067 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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I'm glad I never had to deal with that woman,but as you state its the first time in ten years you have been treated like that .how did you like the california dmv back in the good old days before they got their act together.Personaly I hate having to deal with any government institutions whether they be nob or sob, they're all sob's.


Vichil

Oct 16, 2010, 12:34 PM

Post #10 of 56 (3058 views)

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Re: [cbviajero] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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I posted under Hound Dog. The California DMV is bad but REALLY BAD is the US immigration office. it is like this woman had many clones around...
The other day the majority of the foreigners there were Latinos, in California there was no majority but Hmong, Iranians, Thais , Chinese, Japonese, Europeans and so on..In Mexico with English and Spanish the Departement could manage in the US, there are so many different ethnic groups with nothing in common that the place is a total nightmare for everyone.


(This post was edited by Vichil on Oct 16, 2010, 1:28 PM)


Hound Dog

Oct 16, 2010, 1:04 PM

Post #11 of 56 (3052 views)

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Re: [esperanza] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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As soon as I get that "inmigrado" card, I´m applying for Mexican citizenship.


Dawg, why did you not apply for citizenship directly from finishing five years with an FM-2? Unless I am mistaken, you have taken an extra step.

Thank you for that idea, Esperanza. Perhaps I was mistaken that I needed to achieve "inmigrado" status before seeking citizenship. The bureaucracy drives me insane. Maybe I can avoid that nastiness in the future.


gpkgto

Oct 18, 2010, 9:09 AM

Post #12 of 56 (2896 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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Here in Guanajuato (and I think everywhere) you have 6 months after the expiration of your FM2 to apply for inmigrado--or you automatically are sent back to begin the FM3 process--not another FM2. The citizenship process will probaly take longer than 6 months, so maybe the inmigrado is a good holdover position.

In Leon my partner applied for inmigrado in July and he was notified in September to make the final payment. They said 2 more weeks, but when the next notice came to go to INM, they had lost his photos. He had to get new ones and they said 2 more week. He has a new notice on the INM website to go in, but we won't be able to go until next week, so we are not sure if he is done or not.

There is a difficult clerk in the Leon office, also--maybe it is an INM requirement. When the photos were lost, this difficult clerk told him that his tramite was approved but just not ready yet. This made no sense, so a freind called the office and finally dragged the lost photo info out of the information clerk.


Vichil

Oct 18, 2010, 11:53 AM

Post #13 of 56 (2862 views)

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Re: [gpkgto] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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We also were told to check the status of our application in two months so we will see in December if they have lost anything. They have the last payment and the photos...vamos a ver.


Hound Dog

Oct 18, 2010, 1:12 PM

Post #14 of 56 (2837 views)

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Re: [gpkgto] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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Here in Guanajuato (and I think everywhere in Mexico) you have 6 months after the expiration of your FM2 to apply for inmigrado--or you automatically are sent back to begin the FM3 process--not another FM2.

Here is the scenario I envision gpkgto and this is from many drives between Lake Chapala and San Cristóbal de Las Casas via Queretaro, Puebla. Córdoba, Minatitlan and Tuxtla Gutierrez. The same goes for Puebla, Oaxaca City, Tehuantepec, Tuxtla Gutierrez and believe me folks, you ain´t seen the immigration and federal and army presence along the highways in Jalisco you will see as you near the border with Guatemala or, for that matter, drive the deserted hinterlands of Veracruz State.

Here is Dawg tooling along with papers that demonstrate that, while his long-held FM-2 has expired, he has applied for "inmigrado" status with the INM office in Guadalajara. Now, that routine computerized application form may be just fine in Guadalajara or at nearby Lakeside but, down in the bayous and swamps of Veracuz State or the mountainous outback of Oaxaca State, the fact that I, a foreigner, have applied for a Mexican Green Card carries about the same weight with some swampbunny outback cop as a coupon for 2X1 Cokes at the next OXXO.

DAWG: But, officer. I have lived here ten years and have duly applied for inmigrado status from FM-2 status as required under Mexican law but, as is typical, it takes up to six months to be approved as inmigrado from FM-2 status. Therefore, I. the foreigner living in such effete places as Lake Chapala and San Cristóbal de Las Casas wish to inform you, oh denizen of the swamps and crocodile infested estuaries, that I am in full compliance with the law in every respect Mr. Mexican Barney Fife and it is my intention to live alongside my Mexican brothers and sisters in peace and harmony for all of eternity.
OFFICER: Well, let me see here. You were under an FM-3 status which has expired and are in the process of applying for inmigrado status (whatever the hell that is) and that tells me that at the present time you have no status at all. Is that correct, senior?
DAWG: Well, yes, if you put it that way.
OFFICER: Well, I tell you what. Why don´t you just accompany me over here to the Minatitlan jail where you will be our guest until we have straightened this out once and for all.
DAWG: Yassuh!


gpkgto

Oct 18, 2010, 2:32 PM

Post #15 of 56 (2821 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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Hope you intend to stay put until you get your inmigrado credencial--you are right about the possible problems.


Maesonna

Oct 18, 2010, 2:33 PM

Post #16 of 56 (2821 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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I don’t deny your scenario, Dawg, but it might be worth mentioning you do get a piece of paper attesting to your status as en trámite while your inmigrado is being processed. When I was in that condition, that paper was what I produced when I was asked to present my visa. I do grant you that was that I was in Mexico City, and, as you point out, things may well be different in the sticks.

(This post was edited by Maesonna on Oct 18, 2010, 2:35 PM)


gpkgto

Oct 18, 2010, 2:36 PM

Post #17 of 56 (2818 views)

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Re: [Maesonna] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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My partner has no "en tramite" document--all he got was a letter with the pieza numero and password to access his info on the INM website. The paper does not say what the tramite is that is underway.


Peter


Oct 18, 2010, 5:54 PM

Post #18 of 56 (2783 views)

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Re: [gpkgto] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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In Reply To
Hope you intend to stay put until you get your inmigrado credencial--you are right about the possible problems.


"Possible problems" seems evident enough. I recall being rousted out by the coast earlier this year by a soldier that kept repeating "check point" while trying to show him the contents in the back of my SUV as was their interest in the past. This time they were concerned I had all the necessary documents in order. I showed him copies and told him the originals were at home in Morelia. He had a little change of attitude and relaxed quite a bit after he found out I was a resident. A similar trip a few months later I didn't attract the attention of the military.

It seems confirmed that there is a grey zone one enters as they transition to Inmigrado. Knowing some of the possible consequences it doesn't seem pretty to be caught there.

Given any thought to wintering in Ajijic this year Dawg?


Vichil

Oct 18, 2010, 6:08 PM

Post #19 of 56 (2778 views)

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Re: [Maesonna] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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Interesting, we only got a paper with a number NUT or something like that to allow us to trace the document. We are planning to stay put until we get the papers as they are lots of check points between the State of Vera Cruz and San Cristobal. Usually we are not asked for the FM2 or 3 but you never know as you get closer to the Southern border.


Hound Dog

Oct 22, 2010, 11:21 AM

Post #20 of 56 (2578 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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This is a follow-through to my OP generated the day we paid our second trip to the INM ofice in Guadalajara´s Palacio Federal. Remember the important factor that our first visit, únder an FM-2 status which expired August 1, 2010, took place on the morning of October 5, 2010 at which time the clerk at the reception desk told us the following:

* Your application file is incomplete. You must submit to us the following for your "inmigrado" applicationto get by this desk:
1) Proof of income meeting FM-2 standards.
2) Proof of payment of all fees including the application fee and the subsequently required document processsing fee upon your having been approved.
3) Additional copies of this and that not mentioned on the computer requirements page.

We informed her that the computer requirements list did not include (1) through (3).

She told us to get lost.

Now, we went back on October 14th and the rest is history you may read about in my previous posts so let´s move on.

We will keep you thoroughly informed of our progress until we have received our finalized "Inmigrado" card.

We were told that the applications are no longer processed in Mexico City but in Guadalajara for that office so, instead of a six month wait, we could expect to receive our inmigrado cards in about two months and should follow the computer for the progress to date in achieving that goal.

So far; on October 15th, we reecived computerized acknowledgement that our application had been received and on October 21st, we received a computized response to our electronic inquiry that our application was "in process".

Does this seem silly to some of you? Well, think of this. We initially planned to leave for our other home (as opposed to Lake Chapala) in Chiapas as we do every year about that time in late December or early January and normally we make that journey with FM-2" intact but this time we have nothing more than an application for inmgrado status. Maybe those of you living strictly in Jalisco find that conundrum amusing but until you have faced a redneck cop in the outback, do not laugh.

We do not feel comfortable driving to our home in San Cristóbal without proper papers. Unlike Jalisco, Southern Mexico highways are filled with immigration and army and federal police blockades to say nothing of Zapatista and random village blockades. You don´t want to be there without proper papers and some chump change.

I think we will delay our normal crossing into the Land of Oz until we have that "inmigrado" card. We may be dumb but we are not that dumb.


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Oct 22, 2010, 12:33 PM)


Hound Dog

Oct 22, 2010, 4:42 PM

Post #21 of 56 (2512 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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Today, October 22nd, we checked the INM website and were told that we should return to the Guadalajara INM office. No reason was given. We will go back there this coming Monday, October 25th. The saga continues. We have no idea why are required to return. Perhaps our inmigrado application has been approved. Perhaps it has not. On this planet this is what it comes down to. People we´ve never met applying indiscernable criteria to pretend to accept us into their milieu. I hope we belong there as I think we do. If we don´t, so be it.


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Oct 22, 2010, 5:32 PM)


gpkgto

Oct 25, 2010, 12:09 PM

Post #22 of 56 (2337 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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In Leon, Guanajuato you can call the INM office (!) and if you are lucky, someone will tell you why you have been notified to come to the office. My partner finally got his Inmigrado credencial this morning. The head of the main Guanajuato INM office (in San Miguel) happened to be in the office today and he specifically said, in perfect English: when you have inmigrado status, you NEVER have to go back to INM again unless you change your address OR you begin or change your job (if you have a job or want one). So, as an inmigrado you can work without a special permission--only a notice to INM is required.


Hound Dog

Oct 25, 2010, 3:11 PM

Post #23 of 56 (2310 views)

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Re: [gpkgto] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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gpkgto:

Thanks for the input. As it happens, we deferred our trip to the Guadalajara INM office until tomorrow because of other, more compelling duties but plan to drive from Lakeside into Guadalajara tomorrow morning to find out what it is they want which, we hope, will be to hand us our inmigrado cards. If that solubrious event is not to occur then so be it since our experience with governmental functionaries whether in San Francisco or Paris or Guadalajara is the same. No matter what we can discern over the telephone we must deliver our sorry bodies to the offices of the functionaries for absolution and that is it. Imagine what heaven with its endless levels of saintly bureacracy must be like before you end up at the throne of God just so you can spend eternity as a worthless supplicant. Tomorrow afternoon, I will report my experiences dealing with the new, more efficient, bureaucracy. I expect the worst and hope for the best. My hopes are the hopes of a fool.


gpkgto

Oct 25, 2010, 3:14 PM

Post #24 of 56 (2303 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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My partners first "call back" was just to inform us that they had lost his photos. A call would have saved a trip, since we weren't able to get the new photos in time on the day we went to INM.


Hound Dog

Oct 25, 2010, 5:36 PM

Post #25 of 56 (2276 views)

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Re: [gpkgto] On Transitioning to "Inmigrado" Status

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My partners first "call back" was just to inform us that they had lost his photos. A call would have saved a trip, since we weren't able to get the new photos in time on the day we went to INM.

Well said, gpkgto:

We expect a like experience. The initial perfuntory treatment we recieved at INM in Guadalajara leads us to believe that we will be treated with disdain and have to go through torturous revisits to that insane asylum before having achieved permanent residency status. Looking back on these sorts of adventures, the reason my French wife never became a U.S. citizen while living in Mobile and, later, San Francisco, is that she was always treated with the utmost disrespect both in Alabama and Caifornia when trying to gain citizenship and she finally regarded the process as degrading and
unworthy of pursuit. Today we see that as a mistake for a number of reasons we did not understand as young people. Water over the dam.


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Oct 25, 2010, 6:36 PM)
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