Mando Unico

Mando Unico

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There is a lot of conflict and mixed opinions concerning the proposed “Mando Unico” police overhaul for Mexico. What do you think? Will the Mando Unico improve things, make them worse, or have no effect?

Nov 20, 2010, 3:20 PM

Post #2 of 27 (2027 views)

Re: [Casa] Mando Unico

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exactly what is the Mando Unico” police about

Thanks
Tony

Casa

Nov 20, 2010, 3:52 PM

Post #3 of 27 (2005 views)

In a nutshell

“Calderon, whose term ends in 2012, has proposed a plan to eliminate more than 2,000 local police forces, combine them with state law enforcement agencies and unite them under federal control. He and his top security officials have argued that the move will better combat corruption and crime.”

http://edition.cnn.com/...o.security.policies/

But critics say the measure would concentrate too much power in the hands of poorly run state governments. "One of the principal reasons driving crime and violence in the country is governors not doing their job," Gonzalez said.
Many local jurisdictions have been infiltrated by the cartels who are fighting security forces while battling each other for control of smuggling routes for marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamine and other drugs into the United States. Weapons and cash flow back across the border into Mexico.

http://www.alertnet.org/...wsdesk/N19195872.htm

Re: [tonynico] Mando Unico

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Rolly

Nov 20, 2010, 4:08 PM

Post #4 of 27 (2000 views)

Re: [Casa] Mando Unico

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It seems to me pretty unlikely that it will happen.
If it does it could be a big improvement or a horrible disaster.
It all depends on who's in change and the degree of political Independence.

In my area, the states of Durango and Coahuila are already trying to move in that direction,
but they are meeting with strong resistance from the larger cities. It's more popular in smaller places.
Durango has taken over all police training in the state as a first step.
My city, Lerdo, likes the training idea because it saves the city a lot of money.

Rolly Pirate

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On Facebook as Rolly Brook

Nov 20, 2010, 5:46 PM

Post #5 of 27 (1970 views)

Re: [Rolly] Mando Unico

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I don't know if it would help or hurt. But if things keep going this way tourism will be 0. companies will pull out of Mexico if they have not done so already. Towns are turning into ghost towns. I was watching a show on cable they showed a town that looked deserted, the outside of the stores were filled with bullet holes. There were burnt out cars. Looked like a war zone. I can't imagine this going on and on something has to break either way.
I don't know how it will end but sooner or later it has too. It is a Dam shame that a large portion of the people invMexico are held hostage or worse killed.
What is the answer is there an answer? For everyone's sake I hope so.

Tony

Bennie García

Nov 20, 2010, 6:36 PM

Post #6 of 27 (1951 views)

Re: [Casa] Mando Unico

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It is just the most recent pendejada in the continuing saga of foolishness. Everyone on this planet knows what it will take to end this mess. And it isn't unified commands with more modern weaponry and intelligence cooperation with the CIA, FBI, NSC, BBC, NAACP, PTA or any other acronym named band of idiots.

This whole thing reminds me of the children's tale "el cuento de nunca acabar" that most kids here heard over and over in their early years. Except this "cuento" isn't amusing.

This shit would stop in a heart beat if there were 30,000 gringo victims of the "war on drugs".

La Isla

Nov 20, 2010, 8:55 PM

Post #7 of 27 (1920 views)

Re: [tonynico] Mando Unico

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In Reply To

It is a Dam shame that a large portion of the people invMexico are held hostage or worse killed.

Tony

Slight exaggeration, don´t you think, Tony?

Nov 20, 2010, 9:25 PM

Post #8 of 27 (1905 views)

Re: [La Isla] Mando Unico

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Is it an exaggeration? How many people have been killed. Now think about the families that have been hurt by their loved ones murders. Then think about those who have not been killed but live in fear. Is it a small number I guess it depends on how you look at it. Sure there are areas that are not in the cross hairs but this is like a cancer.
You really think that tourism has not taken a drop forget the economy for a second. But it is in the papers every day violence here and violence there. How many people are out of work because of the lack of tourism they are economical collateral damage.
exaggeration I really don't know you tell me.

Tony

(This post was edited by tonynico on Nov 20, 2010, 9:27 PM)

La Isla

Nov 20, 2010, 9:42 PM

Post #9 of 27 (1893 views)

Re: [tonynico] Mando Unico

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Tony, I was commenting on these words of yours: It is a Dam shame that a large portion of the people invMexico are held hostage or worse killed.

To me, "large portion" sounds like millions and millions of people, which means you are saying that millions and millions of people in Mexico have been held hostage or killed. Do you have the statistics to back this up?

Casa

Nov 20, 2010, 10:07 PM

Post #10 of 27 (1883 views)

Re: [tonynico] Mando Unico

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In Reply To

You really think that tourism has not taken a drop forget the economy for a second. But it is in the papers every day violence here and violence there. How many people are out of work because of the lack of tourism they are economical collateral damage.
exaggeration I really don't know you tell me.

Actually tourism numbers just came out. For the period of the first 9 months of 2010 Mexico tourism revenue is up 7.7% when compared to the same period last year.

In addition in the first nine months of 2010, Mexico received 16.7 million international tourists, 6.9% more than the number registered during the same period last year.

http://www.laht.com/...amp;CategoryId=14091

(This post was edited by Casa on Nov 20, 2010, 10:08 PM)

Nov 21, 2010, 2:38 AM

Post #11 of 27 (1865 views)

Re: [Casa] Mando Unico

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Excuse me for being skeptical. Every time I come back to my home in Mexico, I read the occupancy rate for hotels in the Cancun Cozumel area they say 75 to 80 percent occupancy rate when you go to the hotels they are empty. Not to say I have been to every hotel but I use the hotels to go snorkeling or catching some rays.
I would not put to much stock into any numbers the gov't puts out. This is just my opinion.

Tony

Nov 21, 2010, 2:54 AM

Post #12 of 27 (1860 views)

Re: [Casa] Mando Unico

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Like I said it is how you look at it. NO I do not have the numbers to back my statement up but it is up there. Either physical,economical, or emotional, This drug war is taking a heavy toll on the people in Mexico. People do not even have confidence in the gov't be it local of federal.( not to say that the U.S. citizens have confidence in the U.S. gov't either)

This is a far cry from the days of the roaming bandits. I don't want to debate numbers with you and I surely don't have the numbers. But I look at my area and people are on hard times. Again I know the economy is not well world wide but the violence sure does not help.
Every time I tell someone I am moving to Mexico they say are you nuts. My neighbor just told me about the dangers and told me to be careful she even had an article to give me.
Again when it is in the papers every day it can't be good for business. When they find mass graves tell it to the people who have died or their families it is not millions. I consider 22,000 people
a huge amount of people to have died over drug wars. add on top of that the families who were effected. It is a major problem. I love Mexico I am moving to Mexico but I will not fool myself into thinking things are just dandy they are not. As a kid I hitched hiked all over Mexico I wouldn't even consider driving my car down I am most likely having it shipped unless things change. I know people still drive but again you can't tell me they are not concerned over their safety, all related to the drug wars How many Americans moved to Mexico only to find the violence in their own back yard. I am sure that these people are relieved that it is not millions. Does it make their situation any better? No I did not mean millions but it is a lot more then the 22,000 people who have lost their lives.
As I said before I hope it ends sooner then later.

Tony

(This post was edited by tonynico on Nov 21, 2010, 3:02 AM)

chinagringo

Nov 21, 2010, 5:14 AM

Post #13 of 27 (1848 views)

Re: [Casa] Mando Unico

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The tourism numbers being quoted have some extraneous & unusual factors that make 2009 a poor base year to compare against - swine flu scare and world economic crisis. How does one extrapolate the negative effects of these factors versus the negative factor of the escalating drug war? In reading an article on tourism the other day, the report out of the Mexican Tourism Bureau seemed to indicate an increase in tourism based upon the numbers who were flying in. Even though MEXICANA disappeared, the numbers from the north are up but the numbers from Central and South America are off 15%. I am guessing that more people from the north are flying instead of driving.

tonynico: I believe that the currently accepted number is 28,000, which may be understated?

Going back to the unified command concept, I would think there may be some merit to the plan IF they could implement it in a manner that corrected all or most of the ills of the current system. Without going into all of the obvious problems with the current system, the biggest task ahead is convincing the Citizens of Mexico that a unified command would be to their benefit and something that they could place their trust in. Such a change in attitude will not come overnight since there has been a history of mistrust. It will take years of positive results before the people will even start placing their faith in a new system.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

Reefhound

Nov 21, 2010, 6:27 AM

Post #14 of 27 (1819 views)

Re: [chinagringo] Mando Unico

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I'm seeing the number around 30,000 now but there was a recent BB article that made the case that it is really over 40,000. It seemed credible to me. In the recent Matamoros incident that got Tony Tormentas, many informal reports and off the record statements by police officers and soldiers talked of over 100 dead yet the official govt toll was 10.

Tourism may be up from the terrible 2009 but I bet the vast majority of them are going to the Yucatan which so far has been largely spared by the violence. But people I've talked to are edgy. All it would take is one or two nasty incidents involving foreign tourists to turn Cancun into a ghost town.

As for unified command, it would seem like it could bring more consistency in how police officers act and how police departments are organized. Can anyone tell me how the system works now? Do the states certify police officers and regulate police departments?

Nov 21, 2010, 11:07 AM

Post #15 of 27 (1766 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Mando Unico

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I'm not sure how relevant the "kill rate" is to all this anyway. I suppose if one tallied up the deaths caused by the narcotics industry it probably is higher in the user countries (pulling in everything from homicides and suicides to overdoses, neglect and accidents). None of which says anything about whether a single national police is better or worse than municipal policing.

I happened to attend a lecture last night on the Revolution here in Sinaloa, where one participant made the point that access to local government was one of the major social changes resulting from the Revolution (before the Revolution, there were very large municipalities here), For the speaker, the democratization of local community life, with more participation and more local control of local issues was the most important change in the post-Porfiriate (when policing was controlled by the State and Federal government). Is municipal control of the police more "democratic" than control by a state governor?

Who should the police "serve and protect"? Local interests or state interests? And, is a state governor the proper commander? Or, should it be a Presidential officer (and, what about right now, with a president elected with only 34 percent of the vote [and even that in some doubt]) command local security officers?

I won't say that the "drug war" is irrelevant, but that it is being used as a rationale for radical changes, and should not — and is not — the only issue under consideration.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

dongringo_catemaco

Nov 22, 2010, 3:07 PM

Post #16 of 27 (1676 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Mando Unico

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Reefhound -
Off the top of my head in Veracruz:
(municipal info is for a small backwards town and is likely to be better elsewhere.)

1. Preventive Police -(black & white pickups with 4-6 officers hanging on) controlled by the state
2. Traffic Police - controlled by the state
3. Auxiliary Police (rent-a-cops) controlled by the state
4. Municipal police - controlled by the municipio

Requirements:
All - completion of military obligation (in most cases that does not include formal military training)
All but municipal - passing a psychometric and drug test

Education:
Varies. I think it's reading and writing skills on the municipal level, junior high for others.

Police Training:
Preventives - 3 months police academy
Traffic - not sure, definitely a course in whistling
Auxiliary - some training courses required
Municipal - none (in my town)

Basic Compensation:
Preventive - 8500+/- pesos monthly
Traffic - around 6000 per month plus "tips"
Auxiliary - paid by the hour
Municipal - 5200 pesos monthly, 66 hour week
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Nov 22, 2010, 5:27 PM

Post #17 of 27 (1640 views)

Re: [dongringo_catemaco] Mando Unico

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There are different options for "manco unico" even at the municipal level. One challenge is that police in this country are divided among various political units. Some work for the judiciary, some for the executive and (I can't think of any units off hand) for legislative branches of government. And -- those involved in criminal investigation are not always the same polcie as those involved in crime prevention.

Some police forces (as in Mazatlan and elsewhere) are being combined, but nothing is going to happen overnight. A couple different proposals -- a national police (which was favored by the present administration, but seems off the table), a single police force for every state (which appears to be what the original post was referencing) or regional police (something Torreón seems to be moving towards) . The most common proposals are based on systems used in France, Italy, Colombia, and Chile, with "gendarmes" who could be moved to trouble spots. I'm kind of lukewarm about that proposal, since I think it would stint smaller communities and would do nothing to de-politicize the police (who — under control of a governor or the federal executive branch — would be sent to respond not to areas needing assistance with something like barfights and peeping toms, but to splashier, media event types of socially disruptive behaviors.

Another proposal — one I kind of like — would simply set statewide (or national) STANDARDS for police officers and departments. I'm in favor of the Bernado Fife type of officer (one who knows his or her community, even if they shouldn't be trusted with bullets), but would like to see them better trained and acting like a gente de razon.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

norteño

Nov 22, 2010, 6:21 PM

Post #18 of 27 (1629 views)

Re: [richmx2] Mando Unico

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Mexico already has the Federal Preventive Police that are deployed as needed, and whose powers are nearly all-inclusive. They have grown to their present size within recent years from their origins in the old Federal Highway Police. Mexican law mandates the separation between uniformed police who prevent crime and the investigative judicial police. This is the reason that during the administration of López-Portillo's friend "El Negro" Durazo as chief of the preventive police in the D. F. his plainclothes goons were known as the Department of Investigations to PREVENT Crime.

Nov 22, 2010, 9:41 PM

Post #19 of 27 (1599 views)

Re: [norteño] Mando Unico

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I'm aware of the Policia Federal (see them around here all the time). As Calderón's proposal was initially presented, it sounded as if Eliot Ness would have to be sent to Mayberry every time Otis the Drunk acted up. That's an obvious mischaracterization, but my point is that everyday police-work involves a lot more interaction with the Otises of Mexico and very little has to do with our Al Capones. Perhaps LOCAL police are better equipped to deal with local concerns.

There is a huge temptation with a national (or even state) police to use it for political gain — focusing on the kinds of activities that get an ambitious politico or copper in the news (think of J. Edgar Hoover's FBI, or the career of the real Eliot Ness, who milked his rather minor role in bringing down Al Capone into a not-very-illustrious career in police bureaucracy).

Local police are far from perfect (ok... very far) and the neighborhood slacker is going to be treated much more harshly than the Presidente Municipal's ne'er-do-well son when they're both caught joy-riding in a stolen pickup. That's to be expected, but that kind of "corruption" doesn't affect more than a small community, which is better able to resolve their problem than a larger bureaucracy, where a problem in Fulanotitlan isn't going to matter in the least to the bigwigs in Mexico City or the state capital.

Another issue, and one I hadn't thought of, comes from Yucatán State, where there are complaints now that with centralized emergency telephone numbers, indigenous speakers can't get assistance. Would a unified Yucatán Police... or a national police, be equipped to work with minority communities, or are those communities better served by their own police?

Not that there aren't good arguments for unitary police, but I think any reforms need to focus less on the bureaucratic structure and more on the officers and their training. And... have to be understood are not going to perform miracles overnight (or even within a couple of years).

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

dongringo_catemaco

Nov 23, 2010, 4:49 AM

Post #20 of 27 (1580 views)

Re: [richmx2] Mando Unico

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Calderon's proposal basically was to get Mexico's notoriously corrupt, inefficient and underpaid municipal police forces under control. In order to do so he needed to help the states by placing the municipal police forces under federal command, and that would only be possible by also placing the states´ police under federal rules. The proposal is probably a dead fish.

Municipal police are the weakest link in the enforcement pyramid. State governments are victims of the extraordinary sovereign powers of municipios and have been unable to control them in most states. It would not only require a "Mando Unico" but also a significant change in federal and state laws to tear control from the municipios.

Incidentally ex New York mayor Guliani´s 135 proposals to improve the police force in Mexico City (which is governed like a municipio), which in 2005 were largely poopooed have now almost all been implemented. I don't know whether it has done any good. But it is an indication that concerned Mexicans are willing to make significant changes. Unfortunately that does not apply to most of the 2438 municipios.
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Reefhound

Nov 23, 2010, 7:38 AM

Post #21 of 27 (1549 views)

Re: [dongringo_catemaco] Mando Unico

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Why was Guliani making proposals to improve the police force in Mexico City? Was he hired as a consultant?

I don't think there is any doubt that local police know their area and it's people best. The issue is whether that is used for good or for bad. It's all about the extent of the corruption. One of the reasons the military is brought into areas is the soldiers are not from that area and therefore owe no favors and have no alliances, and can be rotated away after awhile.

One problem many small towns are having now is their police departments are outmanned and outgunned by the bad guys in their area. In the north, many police forces have been disbanded or all the officers have quit. In others, they exist by being complicit or looking the other way.

dongringo_catemaco

Nov 23, 2010, 8:01 AM

Post #22 of 27 (1540 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Mando Unico

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Giuliani was hired for a few million dollars by Mexico City, on the premise that he had lowered the crime rate in New York City something like 50% when he was its mayor.
Many of the municipal police forces are not outgunned. Depending on whose statistics you want to believe, more than half of them are bought and dominated by narcos. They need order books, not guns.
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wendy devlin

Nov 23, 2010, 8:20 AM

Post #23 of 27 (1528 views)

Re: [dongringo_catemaco] Mando Unico

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Nayarit Governor has already made a move this direction( Mando Unico) as of this past weekend.

New security measures were announced by Nayarit Governor Ney Gonzalez at the end of the parade in the state capitol of Tepic to commemorate the Centennial of the Mexican Revolution this past Saturday. An hour before the parade was to start, two state police commanders(prevention) were fatally shot while eating breakfast together a block from the parade route.

http://www.nayaritenlinea.mx/...-coordine-a-policias

According to the Governor, state preventive police will operate jointly with the Tepic municipal police force in an anti-organized crime operation that will be led and coordinated by the Mexican Army.

This recent news is also translated into English today here:

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/...olice-now-under.html

(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Nov 23, 2010, 8:22 AM)

Reefhound

Nov 23, 2010, 8:22 AM

Post #24 of 27 (1525 views)

Re: [dongringo_catemaco] Mando Unico

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Sweet deal for Guiliani. No doubt he knows what works in a U.S. police department, not so sure about Mexico though.

Of course, not all municipal pd's are outgunned. That's the whole point of unification, the variance and inconsistency from one municipality to the next. I've been reading stories that indicate more and more the cartels are not bothering to buy off the police in areas where they can simply overpower and dominate them.

Nov 23, 2010, 11:45 AM

Post #25 of 27 (1495 views)