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robt65

Sep 11, 2013, 7:47 PM

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Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Just curious as to how the new proposed national tax reforms are sitting with ExPats here in Mexico. I would like to know different viewpoints as to how folks feel it will or might affect their retirement down here. I know that it is a long way off yet from becoming law, but it is interesting to get some different views of the proposed new tax reforms.

Regards,

Robt65

hunteradvisor

Sep 12, 2013, 7:24 AM

Post #2 of 50 (948 views)

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Re: [robt65] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Might want to consider sharing the section you are looking for input on?
Isabel
www.RanchoSolyMar.com

Gringal

Sep 12, 2013, 8:26 AM

Post #3 of 50 (933 views)

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Re: [hunteradvisor] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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On the local Lake Chapala forum, most posts are people upset with the idea of dog food being taxed.

DavidHF

Sep 12, 2013, 11:51 AM

Post #4 of 50 (889 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Only useless speculation at this point until the legislature acts. Que sera, sera.

robt65

Sep 12, 2013, 11:55 AM

Post #5 of 50 (888 views)

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Re: [hunteradvisor] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Looking for input on the whole package, not one part, that's why I specifically in two places put an "S" on the word reform. . . . . . . . . . "new proposed national tax reforms". Also including the last sentence . . . . . . " I know that it is a long way off yet from becoming law, but it is interesting to get some different views of the proposed new tax reforms." Please note the "S" on the word reform, which as I last recall is defined as the plural form of a word.

It's nice to have a discussion of what different reforms" (please note the "S" on the word reform), will reflect different opinions that I or others may not have given consideration to, as how they will affect the retiree's pensions and or life styles.

Regards,

Robt65

robt65

Sep 12, 2013, 12:10 PM

Post #6 of 50 (878 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Thank you Gringal for your response. That is apparently a much talked about issue, also here locally (San Juan del Rio, Querétaro), as is the one about public transportation. I wonder how these different issues (reform"s") are going to affect ExPats, both positively, as well as negatively. the public transportation reform may also have something to do with the new President's hope to see a public passenger rail system, the first proposed leg being between C.D. Querétaro and C.D. Mexico. Although to my knowledge there still hasn't been any information if such a proposed passenger rail link would be of the "high speed" variety or not. Interesting for sure.

Regards,

Robt65

robt65

Sep 12, 2013, 12:18 PM

Post #7 of 50 (873 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Thank you for your response no matter how apathetic or uninteresting it may be to you, until "the horse is out of the barn", a lot of ex pat folks are now citizens of Mexico and do have a formal say by contacting or communicating to their local politicians. "Speculation" is really never really "useless" if you look at it as a different perspective of a reform. But then again, maybe you could care less, or be one of those who would wait to voice their complaints until "the horse is indeed out of the barn" and you have to start paying for a new lock and or barn door, like it or not. And that is also certainly your prerogative.

Regards,

Robt65

robt65

Sep 12, 2013, 12:35 PM

Post #8 of 50 (869 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Before the "legislature acts" it also must be approved (on each and every issue) by more than 50% of the states, and then maybe (and with in God knows how long a period of time,) it may be voted upon to be passed or not. But I did not ask for "Que sera, sera" attitudes in my post. I asked specifically and hopefully for logically and hopefully intelligent discussion.

Regards,

Robt65

addtocart

Sep 12, 2013, 12:57 PM

Post #9 of 50 (860 views)

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Re: [robt65] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Your original post:

Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms
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Just curious as to how the new proposed national tax reforms are sitting with ExPats here in Mexico. I would like to know different viewpoints as to how folks feel it will or might affect their retirement down here. I know that it is a long way off yet from becoming law, but it is interesting to get some different views of the proposed new tax reforms.

Regards,

Robt65

seemed to ask for different views. And "Que sera, sera" could be a view.

sam.I.am

Sep 12, 2013, 1:13 PM

Post #10 of 50 (854 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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On the local Lake Chapala forum, most posts are people upset with the idea of dog food being taxed.

It would not be as funny if I didn't think you were serious. May be Chapala could hire a lobbyist to protect the price of pet food. Ha!

Gringal

Sep 12, 2013, 3:38 PM

Post #11 of 50 (826 views)

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Re: [sam.I.am] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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I am very seldom serious, but I thought that the focus on one issue was ironic.

Since I have neither a dog nor a house for sale, I am just an observer. And, since I'm not a citizen, I have no power to change what will happen.

As of today, some postings popped up about one of the proposals to reduce the exempted homeowner amount and tax the profit at 17%. This is creating a new stir. Lots of homes for sale in this area. If mine went on the market, I'd be totally ...um....well, you know. I consider my shirt lost already: bought at the wrong time.
However, I'm planning to stay put till the undertaker hauls me out.

So "que sera, sera" may be the only logical way to look at the future in the first place.

(This post was edited by Gringal on Sep 12, 2013, 3:45 PM)

robt65

Sep 12, 2013, 7:22 PM

Post #12 of 50 (777 views)

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Re: [sam.I.am] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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I feel sad for some folks that only see one side of things. As for me it doesn't make a hoot if they tax pet food or not. Some folks however do not have a family or a spouse and may live alone on a very fixed (earlier as in may years ago) income. their pet is family to them and it well may have an impact on them . . . .. eve think of that being funny samIam? Maybe some day you won't be so self centered or narrow minded.

Regards,

Robt65

richmx2

Sep 13, 2013, 11:29 AM

Post #13 of 50 (686 views)

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Re: [robt65] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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While there's a lot that I think sucks about the proposed tax changes (I'd much rather see a higher income tax, including on foreign income than a 16% IVA, which is gonna hurt) ... overall it's not as bad as I expected. Considering the most likely alternative was to slap that outrageous IVA on HUMAN food and medication, I can live with a paying more for the dog's food... and feed her more scraps if I have to.

The problem with forums like this (and this is one of the better ones) is that the "expats" tend to think whatever the Mexican government does or doesn't do is directed at them. Sorry... no.

http://mexfiles.net
http://editorialmazatlan.com

Bennie García

Sep 13, 2013, 11:45 AM

Post #14 of 50 (678 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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I'd much rather see a higher income tax, including on foreign income than a 16% IVA, which is gonna hurt.

Do you mean the 17% IVA that has been discussed?

In Reply To

The problem with forums like this (and this is one of the better ones) is that the "expats" tend to think whatever the Mexican government does or doesn't do is directed at them. Sorry... no.

That is so true.

Gringal

Sep 13, 2013, 12:24 PM

Post #15 of 50 (664 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Good point.

The proposals actually appear to be about extracting some revenue by closing a number of loopholes and creating a few new sources: the rain falling on Mexicans and expats alike.

Some expats may be aware that there once was a time when most dogs and cats were fed leftovers rather than specialty items from store shelves, the various safety nets didn't exist and some citizens were left twisting in the winds of extreme poverty. That was in the olden days in the U.S.A during the Great Depression.
Newsflash: much of Mexico has been living under those circumstances for a very long time. It will be interesting to watch developments.

(This post was edited by Gringal on Sep 13, 2013, 12:26 PM)

Aaron+

Sep 13, 2013, 12:49 PM

Post #16 of 50 (656 views)

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Re: [robt65] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Heard on TV today that the (Mexican) Senate is expected to take up the so-called Hacienda (financial and tax) reform in November.

Also, am having trouble distinguishing what exactly is in the Diputados' package, other than the dog food IVA (to which I and my dogs strongly object, to no purpose).

Hot items appear to include

-- IVA on rents and mortgage interest, which will face expats also, and will make both categories of expenses 16% more expensive, and which could cut down demand for apartments and homes for those who can only marginally afford such as it is.
-- IVA on tuition, which could force those mid-middle income Mexican families who can barely afford private schooling to forego same, at least for some of their kids, and compel them to send children to the financially and intellectually starved public system. (On the upside, it might create a more political notable constituency for funding public schools!)
-- IVA on stock market and other Mexcain financial sector gains (at least when realized?). Currently there is a very low (10%) tax rate on financial gains for those whose gains are reported. (I could have this part all wrong. The reports have me confused.)
-- Elimination of the ITEU (an alternative minimum tax, enacted in 2007) on businesses and those self-employed earning over a certain threshold level of income, and the ISR (captial gains) tax on the sale of real property, including homes. (It seems that such would be replaced by IVA?)
-- Elimination of the preferencial IVA rate on items currently charged 11% in the frontier zones, including Q.R., in favor of applying the otherwise national 16% rate.
-- Applying IVA in some proportion to sugar drinks (sodas) and certain candies. This has the soda pop folks rushing forth to declare that poor exercise habits are primarily responsbile for obesity, not soda pop consumption. (Well, yes, but how many folks get enough exercise to burn off all the extra calories?)

So far, off the table are proposals to tax food and medicines, or to increase the IVA to 17%. However, as noted, the Senate has yet to act.

(This post was edited by Aaron+ on Sep 13, 2013, 12:50 PM)

joaquinx

Sep 13, 2013, 1:34 PM

Post #17 of 50 (643 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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While there's a lot that I think sucks about the proposed tax changes (I'd much rather see a higher income tax, including on foreign income than a 16% IVA, which is gonna hurt)

An income tax is more expensive to administer than an added value tax. Plus, they can collect the tax easier from retailers than from taxpayers/taxavoiders.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

sam.I.am

Sep 13, 2013, 3:17 PM

Post #18 of 50 (616 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Good for you! Man up everyone and pay the 20 pesos (in tax) a week for dog food. If money is that tight you have more serious problems and should put your pet up for adoption.

richmx2

Sep 13, 2013, 3:38 PM

Post #19 of 50 (607 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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An income tax is more expensive to administer than an added value tax. Plus, they can collect the tax easier from retailers than from taxpayers/taxavoiders.

Are there any studies that back this up? Not that I doubt that you have good reason for saying this, but I can't see where the administrative costs would be significantly higher... or higher enough to make this a concern. IVA is a bigger burden on those with the least income, I'm not sure a higher rate wouldn't push those who are marginally independent into dependency on the state. At least in theory, that'd raise the costs of government on everyone, where a graduated income tax is more in line with "to whom much is given, much is expected" (or... OK... "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs").

http://mexfiles.net
http://editorialmazatlan.com

(This post was edited by richmx2 on Sep 13, 2013, 3:39 PM)

joaquinx

Sep 13, 2013, 3:48 PM

Post #20 of 50 (602 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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An income tax is more expensive to administer than an added value tax. Plus, they can collect the tax easier from retailers than from taxpayers/taxavoiders.

This was discussed in either a Poli Sci or Econ class when I was in the university many years ago. It seems that the collecting of taxes from payroll, reporting of them and its paper work, filing and processing of tax forms, collecting delinquent taxes, court costs, and a huge bureaucracy make income taxes more costly. They are fairer. IVA taxes are localize at the retail level and will affect established stores rather than mercados and street vendors.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

Gringal

Sep 13, 2013, 3:55 PM

Post #21 of 50 (595 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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"At least in theory, that'd raise the costs of government on everyone, where a graduated income tax is more in line with "to whom much is given, much is expected" (or... OK... "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs")."

In an ideal world with idealistic citizens, perhaps. This isn't it.

On a practical level, does anyone really think the working stiff whose taxes are deducted from his/her paycheck actually gets the kind of tax break the fat cats can create through various machinations?

At least, with a VAT, (assuming it's not applied to essential foods and medicines) those who spend more, pay more.

(This post was edited by Gringal on Sep 13, 2013, 4:09 PM)

addtocart

Sep 13, 2013, 3:55 PM

Post #22 of 50 (594 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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An income tax is more expensive to administer than an added value tax. Plus, they can collect the tax easier from retailers than from taxpayers/taxavoiders.

"to whom much is given, much is expected" (or... OK... "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs").

Although Marx is popularly thought of as the originator of the phrase, the slogan was common to the socialist movement and was first used by Louis Blanc in 1839, in "The organization of work".[4] The origin of this phrasing has also been attributed to the French utopian Morelly,[5] who proposed in his 1755 Code of Nature "Sacred and Fundamental Laws that would tear out the roots of vice and of all the evils of a society. (source, Wikipedia)

Yep, socialist problem solving. Until the people with the abilities get sick of the ever-increasing people with the "needs".

richmx2

Sep 13, 2013, 4:28 PM

Post #23 of 50 (589 views)

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Re: [addtocart] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Would you prefer Pope Paul VI?

No one may appropriate surplus goods solely for his own private use when others lack the bare necessities of life. In short, "as the Fathers of the Church and other eminent theologians tell us, the right of private property may never be exercised to the detriment of the common good." When "private gain and basic community needs conflict with one another," it is for the public authorities "to seek a solution to these questions, with the active involvement of individual citizens and social groups."

(Popularum progressio, March 1967)

http://mexfiles.net
http://editorialmazatlan.com

addtocart

Sep 13, 2013, 4:32 PM

Post #24 of 50 (586 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Would you prefer Pope Paul VI?

No one may appropriate surplus goods solely for his own private use when others lack the bare necessities of life. In short, "as the Fathers of the Church and other eminent theologians tell us, the right of private property may never be exercised to the detriment of the common good." When "private gain and basic community needs conflict with one another," it is for the public authorities "to seek a solution to these questions, with the active involvement of individual citizens and social groups."

(Popularum progressio, March 1967)

One is just as bad as the other.

robt65

Sep 13, 2013, 6:59 PM

Post #25 of 50 (547 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Just Curious - Proposed New National Tax Reforms

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Hello Gringal, richmx2, joaquinx, and Aaron2,

Now this is the stimulating, intelligent and thought provoking discussion on the proposed tax reforms I was hoping to see. These different viewpoints did provide me with some different perspectives that I had not thought about, as I hope they did for others as well. Thank you all for this stimulating intelligent discussion. I for one appreciate it. Please continue on in the same vein.

Regards,

Robt65

(This post was edited by robt65 on Sep 13, 2013, 7:01 PM)

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