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Georgia

Apr 4, 2003, 12:40 PM

Post #1 of 15 (1474 views)

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Is the standard of living for Mexicans who live Lakeside better . . .

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This is sort of a peripheral question, but I think it is closely related to crime. Would it be your observation that the standard of living for Mexicans who live Lakeside is better than that of Mexicans who do not live near gringo communities? It seems to me that the great concentration of gringos has to result in a demand for more and different goods and services. If that demand is met by Mexicans, it should reduce unemployment and provide more economic opportunities for the local population. That should result in a couple of things: a lowering of crime and -- assuming courteous guests -- a welcoming of the gringos to the area.

Economy and crime is so closely linked. What has been the long term experience Lakeside?

(This post was edited by DavidMcL on Apr 4, 2003, 5:52 PM)

Uncle Donnie

Apr 4, 2003, 2:47 PM

Post #2 of 15 (1453 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Misunderstandings about crime

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Hi Georgia,

Wow! Great question. I have no clue about how to answer it but here's a ramble that might stimulate more discussion.

I know folks from various social strata. The daughter of a former owner of a Coca-Cola bottling plant in a major city, the grand-niece of a former President of Mexico, restaurant owners (including one who moved to this area to "screw the gringos", building contractors, tradesmen, craftspeople, maids, young people who have gone to other countries for the education offered and who have returned to work, landlords, gardeners, small business owners who court the gringo trade, small business owners who care less if we're here or not, teachers; the entire gamut of occupations and situations.

Some profit from their contact with gringos, some don't. Some suffer from their contact with gringos, some don't. Luckily, most tolerate us with a show of good nature and acceptance. same way they face life.

As far as judging a standard of living, to me that's a whole other discussion. I'm not convinced that poverty as we perceive it is necessarily a problem for many Mexicans. Some head North to work but often return to their homes, to what we might consider a lower standard of living, because their families are here, and it's much safer and less stressful. At least that's what I've been told in several towns and cities down here over the years.

And the terribly poor. The laborers who live in the crude shelters on the lakeshore and are fed each day's leftovers by the kind-hearted chef at one of the local restaurants. The squatters who have built a reasonably weathertight structure on the back road from San Antonio to Mirasol and who accept and appreciate any food items offered. The field hands who live in cornstalk shelters at the edge of the fields. The fishermen who have little or no market among the gringos. The cooks who offer up delicious specialties each evening in the plaza or at other carefully selected locations.

Some gringos down here do wonderful things for the locals at a personal level, some support local businesses whether the quality and service exist or not, some get caught up in the romance of life down here and consider anything made, managed, or provided by any local to be acceptable regardless of quality or workmanship.

Yes, I think some of these folks will benefit from our interactions, no I don't think gringoism is that beneficial at close quarters on much more than an individual basis. Our conceit is that everyone should love us because we Big Bwana all over the planet, dispensing trinkets and small change, but the fact is that you only need drive to Joco, which is still fairly unspoiled by a major influx of gringos to see that they do quite well without our largesse.

On a bigger scale, drive down to Colima City and spend a few days. About 300 gringos in the town from the last count I heard. Excellent standard of living. Much better shopping than in Gringolandia, good infrastructure, and seemingly a great deal of prosperity and satisfaction; all native and homegrown.

Just a few thoughts. Anyone else?

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http://www.headformexico.com

Georgia

Apr 4, 2003, 5:31 PM

Post #3 of 15 (1441 views)

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Re: [Uncle Donnie] Just to clarify....

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... I never meant to suggest that only with the influx of gringos would Mexicans be able to elevate their economic status. It is just that I have noticed a number of businesses Lakeside that seem to be geared towards gringos... mostly in Ajijic. I live out near Joco which is another world in many ways. But in Ajijic there are many businesses which appear to cater to the influx of gringos.

I had a funny thing happen in Ajijic. I was raised bilingual. As I get older it is mroe and more difficult for me to switch back and forth from English to Spanish. My mind is in one place or the other. I went to a fish store in Ajijic, thinking Spanish. The vendor wanted to speak English and was kind of annoyed with my blank stare and need to express myself in Spanish. I didn't know the name of the fish in English and was stumped. I have noticed that most businesses in Ajijic have English speaking personnel. How do local Mexican people feel about that?

Rolly

Apr 4, 2003, 6:23 PM

Post #4 of 15 (1439 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Just to clarify....

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As you know, I don’t live anywhere new A/LC, so I can’t speak about the impact of gringos in the area. But I do have an observation on the Spanish/English thing. I’ve had a number of exchanges with people in my town who want to practice their English – several high school kids, a tamale vendor on the street, clerks in stores, and even a wrong number on the telephone this afternoon. I’ve met a few who learned English in the US; and I know some that spent time in the US and didn’t learn. Most learn it in school – required subject here. I met two men who speak near accent free, colloquial English who have never been to the US; they watch lots of US TV and movies. One of these guys runs an English school. I dropped by during class one day and was surprised at the student body – kids, young adults, business men, and older women (housewives). With my Mexican family, I have a hard time getting Spanish lessons because a session quickly turns into English lessons. In sum, I have the impressions that many Mexicans, especially the youth, are very interested in learning English. It is a marketable skill.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook

(This post was edited by Rolly on Apr 4, 2003, 6:26 PM)

Don

Apr 4, 2003, 7:48 PM

Post #5 of 15 (1432 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Is the standard of living for Mexicans who live Lakeside better . . .

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Being the only "gringo" living in a town with a population of approximately 35,000, I would have to say the answer to your question is no. I don't think the standard of living is any better living in a large "gringo" populated community. But, I am basing my answer on the town I live in. We have many homes here that have asking prices of over 100,000 U.S., some much higher that that and they are selling to Mexican buyers. I am sure you can find many other towns that have both higher and lower lower standards of living, than Lakeside. U.D. gave the example of Colima and he is correct. You also have to remember that a community with a large "gringo" population also drive prices up. Not all Mexicans living there enjoy higher wages that might be paid in those areas.

(This post was edited by Don on Apr 4, 2003, 7:52 PM)

Uncle Donnie

Apr 4, 2003, 10:01 PM

Post #6 of 15 (1415 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Just to clarify....

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Georgia darlin', I didn't mean for you to take my iconoclastic remarks as iconoclastic remarks. Still buddies?

There are a great number of businesses in Ajijic which are definitely gringo oriented and which wouldn't exist except for the business provided by us. Your observation in that regard is dead-on. However, there are many more which rarely, if ever, have their doors darkened by a gringo shadow.

And a lot of the businesses we two groups patronize get us at differing times. For instance, Que Taco on the carretera sees a lot of the graying gringo population early in the evening because we get tired and need to sack out early, while the younger set and the Guadalajara contingents show up late and stay later and spend more money.

Cyber cafes in Ajijic which cater to the gringos rent time at about 30 pesos an hour on average. The one on the square in Chapala which caters mostly to Mexicans and the occasional frugal gringo charges 10 pesos an hour. They're obviously making money but it comes primarily from within their own community rather than the expats. Same thing with the market. Or the tianguis.

My friends tell me that Superlake has the lowest priced oranges in the area. I buy most of my produce in Chapala from the locals. And the meat market on the main drag has excellent cuts and great prices. I suppose I'm trying to fulfill the intent of your query---to benefit the local Mexican small businessman.

In many cases, for a number of folks the deciding factor of where to shop depends upon the ability of the business personnel to communicate in English. Again, I can't answer the question about how some Mexicans feel about this except to say, as both you and Rolly have mentioned, that many seize any opportunity to practice their English.

Mark Farley, author of the Teach English in Mexico Employment Guide reported that Mexico Business Magazine said that "...learning English and computers is more important than an MBA.", and that a secretary at a major insurance company can earn an extra 1,000 pesos per month if they can speak English.

Back to square one for me. Some benefit from the latest invasion from the North, some don't. Since you're fairly close, go to the balneario at San Juan Cosala some Saturday or Sunday and count the gringos present in the crowd of several hundred. All 12 of them. Or drive on toward Ajijic and survey the lakeshore restaurants for NoB customers. The count will drop dramatically lower than the few at the baths.

Then drive on in to Superlake and try to find a Mexican shopper in the place. Plan on spending a considerable amount of time for your search.

And do look at Don and Carmen's website. That's a whole other wonderful world.

Like the song says "...there ain't no good chain gang..." just like there ain't no simple answers to these questions. It's all situational. And don't we love it!!!

Shameless self-promotion:
http://www.headformexico.com

Georgia

Apr 5, 2003, 6:28 AM

Post #7 of 15 (1401 views)

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Re: [Uncle Donnie] Great thread

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Thanks, UD. My query provoked a lot of food for thought. By the way, I have noticed the San Juan Cosala balneario phenomenon. I really don't understand why there are not more gringos there. It is a little pricey if you only want to spend a couple of hours, I guess. We're not too far away from there and my husband and I, as well as our kids and grandkids love the place. And, it's cheaper than maintaining a pool! Besides, my better half loves the steam rooms.

My observations about businesses catering to gringos was more centered, not to the pay rate, but to the creation of jobs. It is my understanding that the unemployment rate in Mexico is a problem, I still wonder if it is any lower Lakeside than the national average?

It would be interesting to explore why some areas of Mexico are so obviously more prosperous than others. Living in an economically distressed part of the United States and having observed the population shifts and employment center shifts here in the last 50 plus years, it has always interested me to observe these demographic changes. I'm no economist, so it's a puzzlement to me sometimes.

It pains me to see so many Mexicans feeling it necessary to risk life and limb to go to the United States for work .... not for the US, but for what it says about the economy of Mexico. Not only that, but, as my children have often observed, US gringo social life is so dry compared to that of Latin America. My kids are my "social life barometer," by the way. They've lived in Ecuador, Colombia and Brasil as well as the US, and much prefer the every day society in Latin America. Yet, if I ask them if they might consider living in Mexico the answer is always, no, that they need a "decent" job. One of my kids is married to a Mexican girl who has no desire to return to live in Jalisco - nor does he, but then it's not a choice for him, he's in the Marines. (And on my mind a lot these days.) Her mother would do anything to return to Mexico, but she is married to a Puerto Rican who doesn't like it there. Generation gap.

By the way, as you can see, life in our household resembles a gathering at the UN. We have these conversations all the time. There is never a clear answer. I just threw the ball out here to see if it would get hit back!

Uncle Donnie

Apr 5, 2003, 7:06 AM

Post #8 of 15 (1393 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Great thread

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Gooood Mornin' Georgia!

I too love the steam room (cave). I only recently discovered that on the far side bench that the pit at the handrail has a "dipper' that you can use to douse yourself while you're trying to avoid passing out.

At dinner last night a friend was telling that her maid and gardener have the entire family working as a team. They come in one day a week to clean and groom two places in Ajijic, and the father just completed doing some plaster work for them. 30 pesos an hour for a very nice job. So yes, there are benefits to some who live in a gringo area.

The down side is that locals pay more for some goods and services just as we do. But again, they also know where the reasonably priced goods are.

As for quality of life (again). Last night as I was driving home I encountered several groups of vaqueros (not the Farmacia Vaqueros, working hands) who were shined up, wearin' their best buckles, boots. and spurs and ridin' their favorite (or maybe only) high-steppin' cayuse into town for an evenin' of fun and frolic. Spirits were high, horses were prancin', and cerveza was being consumed as they traveled. In those moments, life was good!

I agree about the hardships faced by so many trying to get to the U.S. to find work. So many are terribly exploited up there. Years ago when I owned a landscaping company I had a young man working for me for about 9 months. He got paid more than anyone else on the crew because he was worth it. Every Friday we went to the P.O. and sent a M.O. to his wife in a small village down here. Many don't do that and end up working for naught. Anyway, when he finally lef to return home his wife had bought land, built a house, and he told me that when he returned to Mexico he would be one of the wealthiest men in his village. Makes you think about how very little some of these folks have, doesn't it?

Again, I'm sure we're all sending good thoughts for your son. And all the others involved.

Shameless self-promotion:
http://www.headformexico.com

wendy devlin

Apr 5, 2003, 5:55 PM

Post #9 of 15 (1362 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Is the standard of living for Mexicans who live Lakeside better . . .

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>Would it be your observation that the standard of living for Mexicans who live Lakeside is better than that of Mexicans who do not live near gringo communities?

I cannot address directly whether the standard of living(economically speaking) is higher for Mexicans at Lakeside because I have only visited the area.

However to this visitor's eyes, the Lakeside area appears generally to be... prosperous...getting considerable economic spin-off, not only from the influx of foreign residents but also its close proximity to Guadalajara. The city is considered by many to be a hub of commerce and economic activity for the region and the country.

Jalisco as a state, seems to number among the most prosperous in the country. Here... there has been.... some money spent in recent years in areas like the educational system and economic infrastructures overall.

(Of course, you all.... can now cite...examples to the contrary! But again, its the overall picture I'm trying to paint here.)

And...yes, there is poverty in the state, economically disadvantaged barrios and impoverished pockets of people, living close to the edge, like Uncle Donny has mentioned. But compared to many other regions of Mexico where grinding poverty is more widespread, in Jalisco, there ARE... at least, opportunities to work.

And a relatively benevolent climate.

And it seems to me generally... that many people in the region have experienced some economic upward mobility during their lifetime.... with the accompaying expectation of increased opportunities for their children.

However...this could also... be changing...

Some of the people that I have met in recent years, even with excellent educational credentials and years of related work experience, are currently facing loss of jobs and accompanying earning power. Faced with such circumstances, they are opening small businesses, like grocery stores and places 'para llevar' ...etc.

Lakeside also has a looooong history...of foreigner relocation...but to me...although, I know that it is in Mexico...I do not experience it like any other part of Mexico...but then...again.... that is a personal perception.

A perception, mostly.... based upon the ability of many foreigners to live there without the need to communicate in Spanish. Or to know or understand much about the Mexican culture. And also the fact that many people who live there, have lifestyles barely distinguisable from where else in North America, they came. But again... this would be related to the area's overall prosperity with its accompanying availability of infrastructure and English speaking support services.

It appears for many, a positive first place to 'land' in the country.

And many people are precisely looking for this situation... which could account for Lakesides perennial attraction.

However, it is also my perception, that when influxes of newcomers drive up costs of basics like rent, utilities food, etc. some local people will blame them for the change and/or harbor resentments which from time to time, will be acted upon. This of course, happens everywhere:)

When foreigners visit or live in Mexico, they are almost automatically numbered among 'los ricos'.

And will generally have to live as the same.

Wendy

wendy devlin

Apr 5, 2003, 6:10 PM

Post #10 of 15 (1358 views)

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Re: [Uncle Donnie] Colima Update?

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>On a bigger scale, drive down to Colima City and spend a few days. About 300 gringos in the town from the last count I heard. Excellent standard of living. Much better shopping than in Gringolandia, good infrastructure, and seemingly a great deal of prosperity and satisfaction; all native and homegrown.

All true...or at least it was when I visited there again last August.

However... have you visited since the January earthquake?

We received several emails from friends regarding the extent of the dammage following the quake...but haven't heard much recently. My understanding is that there was considerable dammage in the centro residential area and Villa Alvarez. Many people left homeless.

Our daughter lived there last year and said that there were several small earthquakes but of course the one in January was a biggy.

Nature...so benevolent...and sometimes...so fierce!

... to México lindo Wendy

Don

Apr 5, 2003, 7:19 PM

Post #11 of 15 (1350 views)

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Re: [wendy devlin] Colima Update?

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I have family living in Colima City and have been there twice since the earthquake. True, there is a lot of damage and people made homeless from the damage, but they are responding very fast cleaning up and roping off the damaged areas. Damage is spread sporatic throught the city. Our two sets of relatives living there are about 10 blocks apart. One family suffered no damage to their single story home or to their swimming pool. The other relative has a newer 3 story home and they had about $50,000 U.S. damage to their home. The up side for the economy there, IF YOU CAN CALL IT AN UPSIDE, is the current demand for building supplies and construction labor. I will be going there again on Tuesday and will have another look around.

(This post was edited by Don on Apr 5, 2003, 7:23 PM)

wendy devlin

Apr 5, 2003, 9:25 PM

Post #12 of 15 (1335 views)

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Re: [Don] Thanks for the Colima Update

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Thanks Don for the up-date.

It pretty much confirms the little bit of current information that I have.

I imagine many people have work repairing the dammage.

And now... I think I understand better why the traditional lienzos(rodeo rings) in Colima are made of petates...

Far easier... to put up and take down during annual fiestas...

then removing all that broken concrete after an earthquake!

Unless of course, there are other reasons:) Wendy

Georgia

Apr 6, 2003, 7:24 AM

Post #13 of 15 (1322 views)

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Re: [wendy devlin] Is the standard of living for Mexicans who live Lakeside better . . .

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A great deal of what prompted my comments are:

1. the relationship between the economic situation and crime, or lack of it, Lakeside.

2. my observations over the last 50 or so years of spending time in Mexico in general (not specifically Lakeside) and the changes I've observed in the country over that time. It has improved economically, of that I have no doubt.

wendy devlin

Apr 6, 2003, 9:17 AM

Post #14 of 15 (1305 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Is the standard of living for Mexicans who live Lakeside better . . .

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Hola Georgia,

Referencing your second comment:

>>>2. my observations over the last 50 or so years of spending time in Mexico in general (not specifically Lakeside) and the changes I've observed in the country over that time. It has improved economically, of that I have no doubt.

A recent article in the Miami Herald suggests that your (or mine, for that matter) perception of Mexico's economy is off.

http://www.miami.com/...ald/news/5569229.htm

From the article:

"While the percentage of poor Mexicans is about the same now as it was in the early 1980s -- a little more than 50 percent -- the population has grown over the same period, from 70 million to 100 million.

That means about 19 million more Mexicans are living in poverty than 20 years ago, according to the Mexican government. About 24 million -- almost one in four Mexicans -- are classified as extremely poor and unable to afford adequate food.

At the same time, Mexico has grown richer. Its $600 billion economy is the world's ninth largest. Trade volume has almost tripled since the 1994 North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), placing Mexico ahead of Britain, South Korea and Spain as a trading power."

My main point of going on about the economic 'climate' in the Jalisco and the Lakeside area in general...is its relative prosperity...and the trickle down effect to locals in terms of employment and infrastructure. In many other areas, it is quite different...and the impact of poverty is more directly experienced.

Another factor that might contribute to the perception of Mexico's general prosperity is the huge amounts of money that are sent to families from the United States.

We stayed for months last winter in a town in Colima where half the houses stand empty...and most of the able-bodied men are working in 'el norte'. And how the same town or (towns all over Mexico) swell to the bursting during the annual fiesta when 'los ausentes' come home.

But perhaps I am not understanding what you are asking? Wendy

(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Apr 6, 2003, 9:19 AM)

Georgia

Apr 6, 2003, 11:15 AM

Post #15 of 15 (1292 views)

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Re: [wendy devlin] Is the standard of living for Mexicans who live Lakeside better . . .

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Thanks for the information, Wendy. I guess what set this line of conversation off was the initial thread about the safety of Lakeside. My personal perception of Jalisco (as I have experienced it in Guadalajara and Lakeside) is that -- theft aside -- it is safer than many other places, including my homestate, New York. Local responses generally concurred on the thread about that perception. So, my folllow up questions was if there was more prosperity in the Lakeside area perhaps as a result of the influx of foreigners who provide a demand for more diverse goods and services, giving rise to new business and reduced unemployment. I have a firmly fixed belief that crime statistics and the state of the economy are intricately related to one another. So, my question was testing my theory.

I've spent a lot of time in Mexico over the years. I've got to say I was stunned at the size of Guadalajara from my memory of it as a young girl. Tlaquepaque, for example, was considered somewhat distant from Guad, which used to be a relatively small, quiet colonial city. Now it is a bustling part of the city! All the grand old homes out towards the southwest are now businesses or professional buildings! I did spend a lot of time in Mexico City and even in the 1950s some caution was advised. I observed at that time absolutely abject poverty on a very large scale in the DF. I don't remember such a large middle class nor do I recall modern amenities to the extent that they now exist. Obviously, as in most places, the rich get richer. Nevertheless, I also personally perceive Mexico has having become generally more affluent than it was when I was a girl. I guess the same could be said for the US over the same period -- post World War II to now.

Obviously, the climate soothes a lot of hardship. I recall time I spent in the Amazon where the people had very little other than the clothes on their back (not too much of that, if at all) and a machete or old shotgun. Yet no one was starving -- plenty of produce and fish for the taking. The river was the highway and people seemed at ease -- barring an accident or illness which could turn something ordinary into a mortal event when you were two days' travel from a lightbulb or medical intervention.