Mexico Connect
Forums > General > Living, Working, Retiring
 


jerezano

Mar 5, 2011, 4:13 PM

Post #1 of 16 (4300 views)

Shortcut

Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
Hello all,

Bless Mexico! Here is what is happening in Europe and how they are treating immigrants whether temporary workers or people wanting permanent residence. Let's all learn enough Spanish to be able to write a postcard to a friend, or to apply for a job here in Mexico. This could be the handwriting on the wall regarding Mexico in 5 or ten years.

I had tried to post the link to a Yahoo article but when I clicked on the link in the message I got a reply that the article was no longer on Yahoo etc. So I had the message deleted and below is a copy of the article. Copyright is that of Yahoo, but I think if I give them credit it will be all right.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

By FRANCES D'EMILIO, Associated Press Frances D'emilio, Associated Press – Sat Mar 5, 8:16 am ET
FLORENCE, Italy – Svetlana Cojochru feels insulted. The Moldovan has lived here seven years as a nanny to Italian kids and caregiver to the elderly, but in order to stay she's had to prove her language skills by writing a postcard to an imaginary friend and answering a fictional job ad.
"I feel like a guest," said Cojochru. She had just emerged from Beato Angelico middle school where she took a language test to comply with a new law requiring basic Italian proficiency for permanent residency permits following five years of legal residence.
Italy is the latest Western European country turning the screws on an expanding immigrant population by demanding language skills in exchange for work permits, or in some cases, citizenship. While enacted last year in the name of integration, these requirements also reflect anxiety that foreigners might dilute fiercely-prized national identity or even, especially in Britain's case, pose terror risks.
Some immigrant advocates worry that as harsh economic times make it harder for natives to keep jobs, such measures will become more a vehicle for intolerance than integration. Others say it's only natural that newcomers learn the language of their host nation, seeing it as a condition to ensure they can contribute to society.
So far, Italy is only giving a gentle turn to the screw. Cojochru and other test-takers described the exam as easy. No oral skills were tested.
In Austria, terms are tougher. There, where native speakers have been sometimes known to scold immigrant parents for not speaking proper German to their children, foreigners from outside the European Union need to prove they speak basic German within five years of receiving their first residency permit. Failure to do so can bring fines and jeopardize their right to stay.
The government argues that foreigners who master German can better integrate and help foster understanding across cultures. But, like in Italy, critics say it's a just a pretext for erecting barriers.
"The German language is increasingly being used as a marginalization tool," said Alev Korun, a Turkish-born member of the opposition Greens party who immigrated to Austria when she was 19.
Austria's Cabinet approved new rules requiring most immigrants to have elementary German skills before they even enter the country. They're part of a plan to create a new "red-white-red card" — the colors of the Austrian flag — for a work permit for qualified non-EU citizens aimed at filling gaps left by an aging work force. The legislation now goes to parliament for consideration.
Critics say requiring people to speak basic German before they set foot in Austria would be an unreasonable barrier for people from poor, rural areas who can't afford or access German classes.
"I think this is a very clear form of discrimination of certain type of immigrants," said Barbara Liegl, head of the Austrian anti-racism organization ZARA. "I see massive disadvantages for specific groups."
Terrorism pushed Britain to start strictly enforcing a requirement for English-language competency for prospective citizens. Three of the 2005 London suicide bombers were native Britons of Pakistani descent while the fourth was born in Jamaica.
Since 2005, would-be citizens and permanent residency holders have been asked to prove their command of "Britishness" by answering multiple choice questions, in English, on British history, culture and law, from explaining the meaning behind the fireworks-filled Guy Fawkes Night, to knowing which British courts use a jury system.
Britain's government has pledged to dramatically cut immigration, and the language requirement is effectively a tool to put a cap on the number of newcomers, said Sarah Mulley, an immigration expert at the Institute of Public Policy Research, a London think tank.
Home Secretary Theresa May, who aims to cut immigration to below 100,000 by 2015, said language tests will help weed out those who don't plan to contribute to British life. She has singled out spouses seeking marriage visas to join English-speaking partners as a particular concern.
"There is a concern about long-established communities in the U.K. who are not well integrated, for examples, some of the Pakistani (and) Bangladeshi communities, and that's largely linked to language limitation," Mulley added.
But Mohammed Reza, a Pakistani on a student visa who is studying for Britain's citizenship test, saw language as a path to integration.
"If I'm wearing traditional clothing on my way to the mosque, everyone on the tube (subway) looks at me funny and gives me wide berth," Reza said. "It's hard to beat the stereotype, but speaking English is probably the most important thing for fitting in. That's why I read as much as I can and try to learn the lingo here."
In Italy's case, there has been a much weaker tradition of immigration and no major Islamic terror attacks. Still, a strong spike in newcomers in recent years — along with the very newness of the immigration phenomenon — has fueled a xenophobia surge and boosted the popularity of the anti-immigrant Northern League, Premier Silvio Berlusconi's main coalition partner.
In 1990, immigrants numbered some 1.14 million out of Italy's then 56.7 million people, or about 2 percent, according to the state statistics bureau, ISTAT. At the start of this year, foreigners living in Italy amounted to 4.56 million of a total population of 60.6 million, or 7.5 percent, with immigrants' offspring accounting for an ever larger percentage of births in Italy.
Amid the trend, Northern League leader Umberto Bossi's influence in government has grown ever stronger, his rhetoric often laced with a racist tinge. Bossi once referred to immigrants as "bingo bongos" and has suggested that migrant smugglers' boats off Italy's shores be fired upon with cannons.
Last year, a Northern League lawmaker proposed extending the language requirement to all non-EU citizens who want to open a store or other business in Italy, but the move died in Parliament.
Bossi "represents the extreme" in stands on immigration, said Manuele Bacci, 38, one of a fourth generation of butchers running a shop in Florence's cavernous San Lorenzo covered market. The other extreme, he said, is absolutely no restrictions.
"We need to take a step toward them and they need to take a step toward us," was Bacci's formula for integration.
But many immigrants say they'll be rejected no matter how hard they try to fit in.
Cojochru, the Moldovan nanny and caregiver, hoped obtaining permanent residence would help her bring her two teen children to Italy; they live with her sister in Moldova, where wages are among the lowest in Europe. She was skeptical that the language requirement would encourage integration.
Italians always "see me as a foreigner," an outsider, despite her years in the country and despite her flawless command of the local language, she said.



Anonimo

Mar 5, 2011, 4:24 PM

Post #2 of 16 (4282 views)

Shortcut

Re: [jerezano] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
Thanks, Jerezano.

That article can be Googled and it turns up in a number of places, por ejemplo, aquí: http://tinyurl.com/6562f3f

Saludos,
Anonimo


richmx2


Mar 5, 2011, 4:40 PM

Post #3 of 16 (4274 views)

Shortcut

Re: [jerezano] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
Two thoughts. First, Mexico may be somewhat unique in that it both is receiving immigrants AND is a source of immigration (which accounts for some of the confusion in official/unofficial thinking about the issue here). The European countries, having spent the last century slaughtering each other reached a point where their old "native stock" just isn't sufficient to maintain their cultures, and they're not used to cultural changes. Mexican has always been multicultural and multilinguistic, and I don't see any political or social movement towards pushing a single cultural norm on the horizon.

Secondly, if you plan to live here, I would expect you to learn enough Spanish or Nahuatl, or Otomi, or Zapoteca or...) to write a postcard... and to learn at least the basic history of the place. That's just good manners.


http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com


mexipat

Mar 5, 2011, 6:26 PM

Post #4 of 16 (4255 views)

Shortcut

Re: [richmx2] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply

In Reply To

secondly, if you plan to live here, I would expect you to learn enough Spanish or Nahuatl, or Otomi, or Zapoteca or...) to write a postcard... and to learn at least the basic history of the place. That's just good manners.



Memo

Mar 6, 2011, 5:25 AM

Post #5 of 16 (4198 views)

Shortcut

Re: [mexipat] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
I think Mexico is exactly the kind of country that would target immigrants if they became more inconvenient and/or an easy scapegoat. But hey, we can always just leave. Viva La Raza and all that jazz.


Vichil

Mar 6, 2011, 12:22 PM

Post #6 of 16 (4144 views)

Shortcut

Re: [richmx2] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
Can you write a postcard in Otomi, Zapoteca, Nahuatl or any other indigenous languages? Unless you are a missionary or a scholar I doubt that you would ever be able to do that. Spanish yes but indigenous languages? I do not think so ..


richmx2


Mar 6, 2011, 10:36 PM

Post #7 of 16 (4086 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Vichil] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
A missionary? Not a position for me :-)

My small point being that although Spanish is by far the most widely spoken language in this country, it is not the only "official" language... (the second-most multi-lingual nation, after India), and yet another of the differences that make European-style "nationalization" rules unlikely here.


http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com


raferguson


Mar 7, 2011, 6:39 PM

Post #8 of 16 (3997 views)

Shortcut

Re: [jerezano] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
I think that a large number of people in the US and other countries are unhappy about having people in their midst who don't speak a local language. Suppose the people working in your yard don't speak English? It is inconvenient at best.

I would say that there are many reasons for wanting foreigners residing in your country to speak a local language.

Practical. You want to be able to talk to them.

Assimilation. You want new residents to start to assimilate, adopt the local values and customs, rather than live in a separate society.

Economic. Residents who don't speak the local language are more likely to be poor, perhaps more likely to use welfare or other social services.

Anti-immigration. If you think that there are too many immigrants, then you support any measure that tends to reduce the number of immigrants.

Frustration. People get frustrated by people who they can't communicate with.

Prejudice. Some people may not like dark-skinned immigrants.

I should say that I personally tend not to be terribly concerned by this, but on the other hand, most recent immigrants are Spanish speaking, and I speak Spanish, so many of these reasons do not apply to me.

The article makes many of these points. I mostly want to point out that there are many reasons, other than prejudice, to want local residents to speak the local language.

As a teacher of English as a Second Language, I have to laugh when I hear somebody say that Mexicans don't want to learn English. I guess they don't see the ads for "Ingles sin barreras", or realize that every immigrant knows that to move up in the world, they need to speak the local language. On a work crew, the guy who speaks English and Spanish is the supervisor.

I would be surprised if these kind of language rules were ever applied in Mexico. For one thing, there are many Mexicans living in the US and other non-Hispanic countries, so they don't want to encourage the US to treat Mexicans poorly. I also think that US residents and visitors are too important to the local economy.

Richard


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com


Gringal

Mar 8, 2011, 7:43 AM

Post #9 of 16 (3937 views)

Shortcut

Re: [raferguson] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
It's tough to lack fluency in the language of the country you live in, for many reasons.

However, from an historical perspective, the U.S., for one, is a nation settled by immigrants from many nations and with few exceptions, the only ones who spoke English were.......those who spoke it when they arrived on the boat from the British Isles.

As a third generation immigrant on one side, I remember the stories told in the family. The first generation to arrive spoke their native language and struggled to learn enough English to get by ...like some of us expats now. They encouraged the second generation to speak the English which they learned in school, but somebody had to communicate with Grandma, so they usually spoke two languages. By the third generation, nobody knew the old language and often, Grandma was long gone.

That first generation of immigrants socialized mainly with others like themselves; spoke the old language and followed many of the old customs. This pattern seems to be universal.

This is probably not news to anyone, but sometimes we forget that people do not assimilate so easily, especially the first generation to arrive in a foreign country. Some people find learning a new language easy; others find it nearly impossible.

All we can do is try, regarding the language: However, we can all mind our manners and follow the protocols of courtesy. I've noticed that Mexicans in general are very kind in response to my stumbling attempts to speak their language. I guess they understand "try".

As for the way immigrants are treated in the U.S. these days.........tolerance and compassion seem to have often been lost in translation. A dirty shame.


tonyburton / Moderator


Mar 8, 2011, 9:26 AM

Post #10 of 16 (3914 views)

Shortcut

Re: [richmx2] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
Or is Mexico the fourth most "multi-lingual" country, after Papua New Guinea, Indonesia and India?


richmx2


Mar 8, 2011, 12:32 PM

Post #11 of 16 (3871 views)

Shortcut

Re: [tonyburton] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
I think you're right, Tony. Learning Spanish is certainly to a person's benefit, and it wouldn't hurt to pick up Nahuatl, or Mayo or whatever, but I don't see a fluency test in the future as a requirement for an extended residence by foreigners.


http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com


raferguson


Mar 8, 2011, 1:25 PM

Post #12 of 16 (3857 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Gringal] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
Of course you are correct, the generation who immigrates struggles with the new language, their kids speak both perfectly, but the third generation probably only speaks the new language. As you say, some immigrants learn the language easier than others.

You were talking about third generation Americans. Not sure when your ancestors immigrated, perhaps it was during the last large surge of immigration, around 1910. The public thought that was too much, and the laws changed to make it difficult to come to the USA. We are again over 10% foreign born, 2010 census indicates 11.8% foreign born, similar to the numbers from the early 1900s.

This article does a good job on explaining the historic levels of immigration. At this point, legal immigration is at a historic high, and illegal immigration just adds to the immigrant population.

http://www.npg.org/...&uspopgrowth.htm

My real point is that yes, we are a country of immigrants, but there are limits to how many immigrants that we can or even should accept.

Richard


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com


Vichil

Mar 8, 2011, 1:57 PM

Post #13 of 16 (3842 views)

Shortcut

Re: [richmx2] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
Mayo is my husband´s favorite food however Maya is an indigenous language which is pretty difficult to learn.


mazbook1


Mar 8, 2011, 2:21 PM

Post #14 of 16 (3833 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Vichil] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
Sorry Vichil, but Mayo in México is also an indigenous language, totally unrelated to Maya. Do a Google search for mayo +mexico +indigenous and the very first thing returned is a discussion that includes it.


(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Mar 8, 2011, 2:25 PM)


Vichil

Mar 8, 2011, 3:09 PM

Post #15 of 16 (3810 views)

Shortcut

Re: [mazbook1] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
Sorry I could not resist the pun. My husband and I were reading the INEGI results on the number of indigenous in each state and we did run into the Mayo or yoreme.


Rolly


Mar 8, 2011, 4:09 PM

Post #16 of 16 (3800 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Vichil] Count your blessings and don't forget to include Mexico

Can't Post | Private Reply
Maya is also a computer program that is difficult to learn. It's used to created 3-D animations.
The word in this case come from the Sanskrit having to do with illusions.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook
 
 
 
Search for (advanced search) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.4