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skwala

May 4, 2003, 10:51 AM

Post #1 of 16 (1389 views)

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Corruption

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We have been looking at moving to Mexico for some time now. The idea has a lot of appeal; we have visited several parts of the country, have an understanding of some of the problems and issues that face expatriates and still have a generally favorable view of the idea. However, one wonders how the pervasive corruption in the general society affects the daily lives of Gringos. And the really ugly drug situation, which seems only to be getting worse, also gives pause. Does all this enter into your lives, do you just kinda look the other way. . . ??? Skwala



gpk

May 4, 2003, 11:43 AM

Post #2 of 16 (1369 views)

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Re: [skwala] Corruption

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There is more corruption in the US, in my opinion, but it is better disguised and therefore more insidious. Corruption will not enter into your life in Mexico--at least it hasn't entered into mine.


Rolly


May 4, 2003, 1:47 PM

Post #3 of 16 (1355 views)

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Re: [gpk] Corruption

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Corruption, as gpk says, is rarely an issue. While it does exist, it is a highly overblown in the minds of many who do not live here. It also varies with locale -- large cities (Mexico City for example) are likely to have more corrupt cops than smaller places like where I live. I had one encounter with a new cop in my town. He tried to exhort a few pesos from me (not for a traffic violation). I have never seen the guy since, so I suppose he was bounced quickly. I've been stopped three times in three years for traffic violations. Twice I got very polite warnings; once I got a 270 peso (US$27) ticket for running a red light and damn near causing a big accident - scared me badly. The cop was very nice, and there was not even a hit that a bribe would get me out of the ticket. Twice while riding with a friend, he was stopped. Once he was given a warning for an illegal left turn; the other time he was wrong on a one-way street. That time the cop offered to settle the matter on the spot for 50 pesos. A little haggling got it down to 20 – less than the ticket would have been.

The drug problem is much worse in the USA. Unless you are involved with drugs, you'll never know it's around if you don't read the papers. Violence with the drug trade happens mostly in the border cities of the north and rarely involves anyone other that the drug dealers and the cops.

In daily live in Mexico, corruption is not nearly as much of a problem as the inefficient bureaucracy of government agencies and the lackadaisical attitude toward customer service in many stores. But once you adjust to the slower, more relaxed pace of life here, you’ll find Mexico to be a very comfortable place to live.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook


raferguson


May 4, 2003, 7:56 PM

Post #4 of 16 (1327 views)

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Re: [skwala] Corruption

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I think that corruption is a bigger issue for businesses than for individuals. The bureaucracy (tramites) is a problem for everyone, and can involve unofficial payments. I understand that bribes and other unofficial payments amount to a substantial part of business costs in Mexico, and I have seen numbers as high as 15%. Payments could be as minor as paying the garbage man a few pesos to haul the trash, and some of these payments are not seen as "bribes" by those paying them.

According to international surveys by "Transparency International", Mexico has much more government corruption than the USA. The really clean countries are mostly the scandanavian countries, for some reason. The USA is at 16th place, Mexico at 57th, and Nigeria at 101st. Mexico is at a level similar to that of some central European countries like Poland or the Czech or Slovak Republics. The good news is that Mexico is in the middle, so not as bad as many other countries.

As far as business ethics, it is harder to compare, but historically, the Mexican businesses were closely aligned with the corrupt government, and often used the government to suppress competition in any way that they could. (Similar to how the PRI tried to suppress competition from other political parties). In Mexico, when businesses are complaining about "unfair competition", they are sometimes complaining about a business which cut prices below their own!

Richard


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com


jennifer rose

May 4, 2003, 8:20 PM

Post #5 of 16 (1326 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Corruption - Bribing the Trashman? (No!)

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Payments could be as minor as paying the garbage man a few pesos to haul the trash, and some of these payments are not seen as "bribes" by those paying them.


Who do you think pays the trashman to haul away refuse? The government? Residential customers who pay a monthly bill? Where do you think the trashman's revenues come from? Or is he picking up garbage for the simple thrill of finding something possibly salvageable? Think again.

Paying the trashman 3 pesos -- that's $.30 American -- for a giant sack of trash is hardly a bribe.


bournemouth

May 4, 2003, 9:09 PM

Post #6 of 16 (1319 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Corruption - Bribing the Trashman? (No!)

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Certainly in the part of Mexico that I know best (Sonora) trash removal is provided by the municipality and is funded from property taxes etc. A propina is certainly in order at Christmas and if you put out anything oversize but one does not have to pay per bag. The basureros are paid by the municipality - I take it that things are different in Morelia? However, Morelia is not all of Mexico.


Rolly


May 5, 2003, 6:49 AM

Post #7 of 16 (1303 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] Corruption - Bribing the Trashman? (No!)

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Likewise in my town and the two adjoining cities -- trash removal is paid by the city.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook


raferguson


May 5, 2003, 7:24 AM

Post #8 of 16 (1300 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Corruption

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What is corruption? Obviously many people do not consider a few pesos a bribe. However, if the trash man is receiving a salary from the city, but the citizens are required to give him a "propina" for him to haul their trash, then that "propina" is getting closer to a bribe. If the "propina" is only a few pesos at Christmas that is not a big deal. If the propina is more or less mandatory, then it looks more like a bribe. I am pretty sure that the trash man gets a salary from the city, but perhaps that is not true everywhere.

Now let's make it a bureaucrat. If you need to make an under-the-table payment to an individual to complete some paperwork in a timely manner, and the fee is not posted and is not going to the city, it probably is a bribe. I would guess that most of us would call that case a bribe. Similarly, if a policeman stops you for speeding, and you pay him on the spot to avoid a ticket, that is a bribe by most definitions.

There are some gray areas, of course. One of the points is that in a culture with a higher degree of corruption, a lot of things that would be considered improper in some cultures are just taken for granted, and considered normal and correct. Have you ever paid your trashman in the USA? (Other than perhaps a small Christmas gift).

A lot of what I am arguing here comes from a study of corruption in Mexico, and one of the points of the study was that Mexicans (and residents of Mexico) take a lot of these small payments for granted, but they should not. The idea was that everyone needs to stand up and stop all unofficial payments to officials, for the good of society. Why are you paying somebody to do their job when they already have a salary?

According to the study, many of the payments were described by those making them as a convenience, to save hassle and time, rather than as an absolute requirement to get something resolved. That goes into the question of tramites, if you have a lot of bureaucracy, then the system kind of encourages people to make these unofficial payments, to get around the hassle of the official process. And the bureaucrat has an incentive to make the process as long and complex as possible, to encourage "propinas" to expedite the process.

It is sort of like the "broken window" theory of crime, if you let people get away with small violations of the law, like spitting on the sidewalk, then the bigger violations, like drug dealing, thrive. Or you can look at it the other way, if small payments are part of daily life, then it is likely that big money is changing hands somewhere you do not see it. In other words, the cause-effect relationship between minor and major corruption may go in either direction, or even both ways. It is not a coincidence that Mexican Presidents and other officials leaving office are usually much richer than when they entered office.


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com


Uncle Jack


May 5, 2003, 7:47 AM

Post #9 of 16 (1299 views)

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When is a bribe........

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.......not a bribe? When does it become extortion?

If you offer money or goods to an other for the purpose of gaining favor or bettering your situation, then I believe that is a bribe.

When you are required or forced to pay another...........that's flat out extortion.

UJ


Madam  ZZ

May 10, 2003, 5:30 PM

Post #10 of 16 (1234 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Corruption

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Perhaps we overrate Mexican corruption? Giving the gargage guy a few pesos is a tip IMO and given the wage municipalities pay for this jobs, 4:30 AM to start and sweep with a broom ahead of and behind the truck...well, I'd pay some centavos a day for that! Now a totally unrelated story, but not really. My wallet was lifted last July in Isla Mujeres. They were after the new mamasita bolsa on the golf cart seat and I thought I had everything else in my purse as I joptted down a phone number for a rental... A police report assured me I should go to cortes, the prosecutor, and file so they could prosecute in my absense. I was there with this clerk who was giggly and interested in the Law and Order types more than me. But she took a good report. I listed my credit cards, Ladatel, Amigo and whatnot. "Do you have money?" she asked. Por un propina a tu? No all my money was stolen. She said, "Yes, tell me how much. I want to finish this report." The she laughed and pointed at me when the next Law and Order type walked by without saying hello. "No mas propinas!" they laughed and laughed!


duffer

May 14, 2003, 2:12 PM

Post #11 of 16 (1154 views)

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Re: [skwala] Corruption

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It seems that when foreigners discuss corruption in Mexico the discussion seems to center around one or two themes, police corruption and the infamous mordida or the paying of additional propinas for services that normally are provided free, such as garbage removal, or to procure a building or other type of permit required by the government.

They are probably discussed the most because anyone that spends much time here will have either experienced them firsthand or have known someone who has.

But those are just a small part of how corruption effects daily life in this country. There are many other acts of corruption which go on unbeknown to all but the participants and can have both direct and indirect influences on the public.

How many times are public resources diverted from their intended purpose to benefit a private enterprise? Like a town's water supply being clandestinally pumped to a private golf course while the people go without water for days. That's always a lot of fun!!

How about all the 975ml litros being pumped at so many Pemex gas stations while the authorities look the other way? Do people realize how much those little 25ml add up to over time?

IMSS clinics without the needed medicines that have been abscounded for vote-buying politicians?

Or why is a politcian's last year in office referred to as "el año de Hidalgo"?

The petty mordida by the local traffic cop or the tip to an obstinate bureaurocrat are really minor when compared to a lot of other insiduous forms of corruption.


alex .

May 14, 2003, 2:29 PM

Post #12 of 16 (1149 views)

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Re: [duffer] "el año de Hidalgo"

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"Its a poor politician that leaves office poor."
Alex


Mruni4ms

May 15, 2003, 8:02 AM

Post #13 of 16 (1120 views)

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Corruption in U.S.A.

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In nearly each of the scenarios you list, the same "corruption" takes place, usually on a much grander scale, here in the USA. The Pork Barrel projects piled onto a legislative bill, the "service fees" in a variety of forms that are added onto every utility, the wealthiest citizens enjoying a presidential "tax cut", and finally, US corporations who are allowed to incorporate off shore and avoid US taxes!

All of these are forms of corruption and "ripoffs" carried out by the powerful upon the weak. Mexican corruption, IMHO, doesn't begin to compare to that of it's greedy neighbor to the north. We (USA) just dress it up differently and deliver it with starched white collars in a business suit.

Que lastima, pero es la verdad.

~Miguel~

Edmonds, WA USA


pathall

May 15, 2003, 8:45 AM

Post #14 of 16 (1111 views)

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Re: [Mruni4ms] Corruption in U.S.A.

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The same thing goes for Canada. When we recently sold our house in Edmonton, Alberta, we were notified that the small shed in our back yard needed a construction permit. The shed was in the back yard when we had bought the house 17 years before. It was constructed some time before that. We were unable to complete the sale of the house until we had paid some $150 for a construction fee. When questioned the only answer I could get out of City Hall was that there had been no construction fee when the shed had been built, but that there was now a construction fee for such a "building".

I figured this was blackmail. Having lived in Mexico 30 years ago when the mordito system was quite rampant, I was reminded of my old days in Mexico.


alex .

May 15, 2003, 8:56 AM

Post #15 of 16 (1109 views)

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Re: [Mruni4ms] if US corporate CEOs

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were paid a decent wage then maybe this wouldn't happen......
Alex


elcomputo

May 19, 2003, 10:51 AM

Post #16 of 16 (1063 views)

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Re: [Mruni4ms] Corruption in U.S.A.

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I am a newcomer to Mexico. I came down in a van carrying a full capacity of goods, plus some stuff strapped to the top. The goods attracted the curiosity of a cop outside Pachuca and two different federales (within 3 blocks of each other) in Mexico DF. In each case, they asked me where I was coming from, where I was going, and what I was carrying. I answered in my broken Spanish, they thanked me, shook my hand, wished me a good journey, and gave me directions. I was surprised there was no attempt at a bribe.

A few blocks later in the DF, I was stopped by a city cop on foot when I paused at a traffic light. He fined me $7 for not wearing my seat belt. I paid him and figured it was a minor shake-down, but he was working within the law. Wearing seat belts is as mandatory in Mexico as in the U.S. (though none of the other cops mentioned it).

The only real bribe I had to give was to a soldier at a military check point. He found a Magnalite flashlight in the van and immediately coveted it. He kept saying something abouot a "golpo," a tap or a blow, and i thought maybe it was slang for "gift." (On the other hand, he may have been saying, with a smile, "I'll use this on your head if you don't give it to me." He did look like a younger version of that bandito in "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" who didn't need no stinkin' badge.) I tried to humor him into taking an old tee shirt, but he wanted the flashlight. I decided it was not a good idea to try to bargain with a child carrying an assault rifle.

I had read somewhere that when this happens, you can try telling the soldier you want to talk to his commandante. Sometimes that scares them into giving up on the bribe attempt. But another thing I feared was having to unload the van, open all of the boxes for a thorough inspection, repack, and reload. It was worth the flashlight to avoid that.
 
 
 
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