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BryanC

Sep 19, 2013, 6:40 PM

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Can someone educate me?

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Hello all,
Can someone tell me what the teachers are so angry about? I read that it has to do with recent education reforms, but the details are sketchy. I live in Chiapas, and they have been camped out in central Tuxtla for weeks. They sporadically block highways, government buildings, and shopping malls. They carry signs talking about injustice, and some carry pictures of Che Guevarra. No one seems to be trying to resolve this issue. Being a gringo, I am certainly not going to get involved in Mexican politics. However, I would like my 7 year old daughter to get an education. No teachers in my town have come to work for a month. I am getting worried.
If anyone can shed some light on the specifics, please feel free.
Thanks for your time,
Bryan

CozumelComplete

Sep 20, 2013, 5:47 AM

Post #2 of 33 (985 views)

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Re: [BryanC] Can someone educate me?

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I believe one large part of it is the governments decision to evaluate the teachers ability by testing. Evidently many are unable to pass the tests. In the states teachers must take certification tests in order to recieve a liscence to teach.
Patricia A Holt
Cozumel The Complete Guide II

esperanza

Sep 20, 2013, 6:51 AM

Post #3 of 33 (964 views)

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Re: [BryanC] Can someone educate me?

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Bryan, the so-called reforma educativa that has been passed by both houses of the Mexican government will indeed require that current teachers pass an exam to prove that they are sufficiently knowledgeable to teach their subjects. On the face of it, this doesn't sound like such a big deal--but as the other poster mentioned, many teachers will likely be unable to pass such an exam.

The crux of the problem is the way teachers get their jobs. Many--some would argue most--teachers buy their 'plazas' (job placements) or inherit them from a family member who is a teacher. There's no real selection by testing, interviews, etc. If teachers are unable to pass a required proficiency exam, they will not lose their employment, but they will be unable to continue employment as teachers. The proficiency exam will, at least in theory, put an end to the current way of working for the SEP.

There is valid concern about many aspects of the teacher demonstrations. Here in Mexico City and in Morelia (the two cities where I have personally experienced the demonstrations)--as well as in Oaxaca, Chilpancingo (GRO), and other cities--the demonstrations completely disrupt everyday life. In Mexico City, public transportation (some Metro stations, the Metrobús, and regular buses) and MEX (the international airport) have been brought to a standstill by throngs of demonstrators blocking roads. In Morelia, the protestors sometimes block one or another (or all) of the entrances and exits from the city. Several weeks ago, I was in Morelia overnight for a meeting and ended up having to stay an extra night because all five exits from the city were blocked by demonstrators and no long-distance buses could drive their routes.

Many, many people believe that at least some of the demonstrators in the CNTE (national teachers' union) movement are not teachers at all, but instead are what in the old days we called 'outside agitators'. On the other hand, as you yourself have experienced, the teachers in your town are not teaching. Other teachers around the country are not in their classrooms.

Most theorists say that it will take at least 10 years for this so-called education reform to have a true impact on Mexico's current public education system. By that time, the Peña Nieto administration will be long gone, and my suspicion is that some other new wrinkle will have taken the place of this 'reform'.

By that time, your daughter will be ready to graduate from prepa. I say put her in a private school now.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Azuledos

Sep 20, 2013, 7:32 AM

Post #4 of 33 (945 views)

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Re: [BryanC] Can someone educate me?

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Here's something I came across that explains some viewpoints on the "reform" https://soundcloud.com/...ucation-reform-moves

YucaLandia

Sep 20, 2013, 7:38 AM

Post #5 of 33 (944 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Can someone educate me?

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A few small additions to esperanza's good points: The proposed legislation also effectively takes away the Union's traditional power to decide who is hired to be a teacher. Here in Yucatan, an outgoing retiring teacher gets to select their replacement - regardless of the replacement teacher's qualifications, and the Union collects a substantial fee from the new applicant. This means that the retiring teacher can designate a child or niece, nephew, or friend who has no teaching credentials => nepotism with decades of damaging results. Another further change proposed in the legislation would require teachers to actually go to their school every day. In many Yucatecan rural schools, the teachers only show up 1 day a week at their schools, to keep their right to a paycheck alive. As a result, the proposed changes profoundly affect both the teachers and the Union's power and influence.
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

BryanC

Sep 20, 2013, 8:01 AM

Post #6 of 33 (925 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Can someone educate me?

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Thanks for all the replies.
So, essentially, the teachers are angry because they are going to have to show up for work and prove that they are qualified to teach. I don't understand why the government is putting up with their nonsense. Why aren't the authorities cracking down on them? I wish that they would all be fired and replaced with teachers who actually want to work.
And, keep them from blocking roads! That stuff is insane!

Bennie García

Sep 20, 2013, 8:05 AM

Post #7 of 33 (922 views)

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Re: [BryanC] Can someone educate me?

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You need a much more profound understanding of the history of political and union history in Mexico. The ties between unions and the government, especially the PRI, are quite entangled and the political power of the unions, as being shown in these recent events, is very strong.

Put simply, it ain't that easy.

addtocart

Sep 20, 2013, 8:16 AM

Post #8 of 33 (914 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Can someone educate me?

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A living example of this government/society's way of keeping the people as uneducated as possible.

YucaLandia

Sep 20, 2013, 8:41 AM

Post #9 of 33 (902 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Can someone educate me?

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The Camara de Diputados and the Senate have both passed the legislation, demonstrating their political power. Professional historians and professional analysts of Mexican politics say that the legislation has the support of key Union leaders. This seems to show that outside of the current street protests, the political power to craft and pass legislation lies with the politicians who passed it, and with the Union leaders who support this legislation.

These facts point to a situation where the power is split between the power of street protests by rank and file Union members versus the political power of Union bosses and politicians.

What is "the Union": the bosses or the workers?

Where does the power lie when bosses votes/choices differ radically from their members?

What political power do street protestors wield ?

It's difficult to see how this will resolve.
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

esperanza

Sep 20, 2013, 8:57 AM

Post #10 of 33 (890 views)

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Re: [BryanC] Can someone educate me?

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In addition, go take a look at Article 9 of the Constitución. The salient point is that in most instances it is unconstitutional to break up demonstrations.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Aaron+

Sep 20, 2013, 9:24 AM

Post #11 of 33 (869 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Can someone educate me?

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One way to "break up" a demonstration peacefully is to cut off the flow of funds financing protesters' ability to demonstrate day after day. Up to recently, Governor Cue of Oaxaca, for example, had taken no steps against the so-called teachers, who were being paid for all days off in August (though some question about payment for days off in September).

Yesterday I heard, on a tv news report here, that the newly implemented education law enables the federal government to fire any teacher who is absent from work more than three days without authorization (such as medical cause). And that the public school teachers, camped out more than 30 days, had reached 4 days of unexcused absence since the effective date of the new law. Have seen that public schools (or many of them) in Oaxaca resumed classes this past Monday, finally. (Oaxaca appears to have the hardest core members of the CNTE union.)

BryanC

Sep 20, 2013, 9:33 AM

Post #12 of 33 (862 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Can someone educate me?

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I understand that people have a right to protest. However, when someone blocks a road or roads that leave the driver no access to go to a place or return home seems to be infringing on the rights of other citizens to move freely in their own city. Plus, when they block stores, they cut off revenue to that store, which has resulted in employee layoffs here in Chiapas. If I were protesting something, I would want as many people as possible to be on my side. The teachers are just making everyone mad.
I was a high school teacher early, after graduating college. I thought that I was meant to be a teacher, to mold young minds and so forth. I quickly realized I was not cut out for the job. The teachers here should follow my lead, if you don't like it, find another job. If they have such disregard for their students, I don't feel comfortable letting them teach my child, anyway.

Bennie García

Sep 20, 2013, 9:50 AM

Post #13 of 33 (854 views)

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Re: [Aaron+] Can someone educate me?

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Yesterday I heard, on a tv news report here, that the newly implemented education law enables the federal government to fire any teacher who is absent from work more than three days without authorization (such as medical cause). And that the public school teachers, camped out more than 30 days, had reached 4 days of unexcused absence since the effective date of the new law.

That has an easy work around that has been employed by parastate employees (the CFE workers are famous for it) for a long time. They simply pay a doctor at IMSS to give them a medical justification for their absence.

mcm

Sep 20, 2013, 1:05 PM

Post #14 of 33 (816 views)

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Re: [BryanC] Can someone educate me?

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Keep in mind also that the CNTE -- Coordinadora Nacional de Trabadores de la Educación -- is a much smaller (nationally) union than the SNTE (Sindicato Nacional de Trabajadores de la Educación -- the largest union in Latin America, I believe). Most of the protests are CNTE protests (CNTE represents the majority of teachers in Oaxaca, Chiapas and several other southern states. Many of the SNTE teachers are also unhappy with the reforms -- especially the evaluation of teachers -- but have generally not joined the CNTE protests (some sections have launched separate protests, however). The common wisdom, as others have said, seems to be that the CNTE includes a lot of people with a ''Marxist-Leninist'' agenda, whose views of education are very different from that of the federal government (certainly the CNTE, founded in 1979, was started by people with relatively radical political views -- out of frustration with the SNTE which was considered as essentially an arm of the government rather than representative of the workers).

In part, some of the irritation/frustration of the union members AT THE MOMENT is due to the failure of the federal government to take their opinions into account -- a series of forums were called in early summer, but apparently none of the teacher's suggestions were incorporated into the final legislation.

As others have pointed out, the big issues are 1) evaluation of teachers (current teachers are given three chances to pass the test, then if they fail they move to non-teaching positions; new teachers have one chance to pass the test, I think), and 2) assignment of places (who gets to decide who is hired).

Here in Yucatán, and I imagine in other states, many ''teachers'' are essentially contract workers -- they don't have ''base'' places, but are hired annually or by term to teach, and don't receive benefits. While there are many terrific teachers, the general consensus of people (Yucatecan) that I've talked to is that the teachers have it easy, at the cost of the students -- that opinion is voiced by people from different socio-economic groups. The exception to that view are usually people who are teachers, but most of those recognize big problems in the system, and feel pretty powerless to do anything about it.

GringoCArlos

Sep 20, 2013, 4:36 PM

Post #15 of 33 (774 views)

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Re: [mcm] Can someone educate me?

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Here's some examples, if you want to believe El Universal as the source. In Oaxaca, there are 50,482 teachers working but somehow there are 98,432 listed in the National Teachers Register.

The top 40 CNTE union reps in Oaxaca took an additional 37.2 million pesos in illegal pay between 2008 and 2012 which represents the normal pay for 13,822 of their lesser paid coworkers. CNTE represents 98% of the teachers in Oaxaca.

original article in Spanish:
http://www.eluniversalmas.com.mx/...s/2013/08/103147.php

(This post was edited by RickS on Sep 20, 2013, 5:24 PM)

addtocart

Sep 21, 2013, 6:28 AM

Post #16 of 33 (685 views)

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Re: [GringoCArlos] Can someone educate me?

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The top 40 CNTE union reps in Oaxaca took an additional 37.2 million pesos in illegal pay between 2008 and 2012 which represents the normal pay for 13,822 of their lesser paid coworkers. CNTE represents 98% of the teachers in Oaxaca.

I have always wondered how they count and then report illegal things.

citlali

Sep 21, 2013, 7:22 AM

Post #17 of 33 (654 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Can someone educate me?

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Same deal in France the doctors write up excuses but they usually do it for free...

CozumelComplete

Sep 21, 2013, 10:07 AM

Post #18 of 33 (608 views)

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Re: [citlali] Can someone educate me?

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I have a good friend who is a teacher in the union. She actually agrees with much of the new law, such has testing for qualifications, doing away with nepotism, and hiring on merit. Unfortunatly due to peer pressure she must go along with the crowd to protest etc.
Patricia A Holt
Cozumel The Complete Guide II

YucaLandia

Sep 21, 2013, 11:54 AM

Post #19 of 33 (587 views)

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Re: [CozumelComplete] Can someone educate me?

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Teachers in rural area schools here have been summoning parents in for mandatory conferences. The teachers then present the parents with a petition to sign. The petitions state that the parents support the teachers in blocking, fighting, and eliminating the new legislation. The pressure on requiring parents to sign is not subtle. The mandatory conferences are being held during the parent's daytime working hours, creating additional hardships on working parents.
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

BryanC

Sep 23, 2013, 3:24 PM

Post #20 of 33 (444 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Can someone educate me?

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Just an update on the goings-on in Chiapas, for those who are interested.
Yesterday, my father-in-law celebrated his birthday and had invited some of his family members who live in Tuxtla to come by. They called mid-morning and said that could not come because no service stations had gas. It seems that the teachers had blocked the Pemex distribution center. I think things are OK now, because Pemex sent in trucks from other locations. Here is the story if you want to read it:

http://www.cuartopoder.mx/...asto-de-combustible/

Some of the townspeople here, who are pro-teacher (generally due to an immediate family member being a teacher), are telling people that all parents should support the teachers because the President passed a “secret” law that will make all public schools in Mexico private - thus all parents would have to pay for their child's education. A lady showed a “government document” stating this to my wife (the lady's husband happens to be a teacher). I don't think the government is into passing secret laws and then typing them on a document and distributing them. Sound like a ruse by the unions to drum up support from parents. We live in a small town, and a lot of people keep themselves very isolated here. They will believe anything anyone tells them and not do anything to find out the actual story.

Does anyone from Oaxaca know if the teachers have returned to their classes? I heard on the radio that they had, but I doubt it.

addtocart

Sep 23, 2013, 3:35 PM

Post #21 of 33 (441 views)

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Re: [BryanC] Can someone educate me?

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I just went back and read the title of this thread: "Can someone educate me?"

It would seem, not in Mexico.

esperanza

Sep 23, 2013, 4:49 PM

Post #22 of 33 (423 views)

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Re: [BryanC] Can someone educate me?

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Here in the DF, the teachers have impeded life in as many ways as possible. The Metro, the Metrobús, the Zócalo, and even the airport have all been blocked to traffic several times each during the last month. It's been impossible to plan a trip to the Centro Histórico for any reason other than work or another mandatory reason.

For example, this week the teachers have yet another megamarch planned for Wednesday--the day my wife has to to to SRE to hand in her application for citizenship. The demonstration will come from two distant points in the city and converge in order to end at Los Pinos, analogous to the White House in the USA.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

BryanC

Sep 23, 2013, 6:21 PM

Post #23 of 33 (412 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Can someone educate me?

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I don't understand people's way of protesting here. About two months ago, we were driving back home from Tuxtla and had to stop at a blockade in a small town. Luckily, the "protest" stopped at 6pm, so we only had to sit and wait for about 45 minutes. The people were protesting the CFE costs. I asked some of the people, "If you have a problem with the CFE, why are you blocking a road 30 miles from their offices?" They all replied, "I don't know." I asked if they didn't know, why are they doing it? They just shrugged their shoulders and walked off.

Who in the teachers unions comes up with their plan? Hey guys, let's try to make as many people as angry as we can! We will constantly be a headache and nuisance to everybody, regardless if they have anything to do with our problem or not! That surely we get them on our side!

On the brighter side, I did read a while ago that the Secretary of Education in Chiapas has instated 200 temporary teachers to fill the vacancies currently left by the protesters. He said that he will add more each day. I hope this is true. Evidently, some parents are putting the screws to them. It's about time someone started to speak up. People around here seem to be scared to say anything.

cbviajero

Sep 23, 2013, 6:56 PM

Post #24 of 33 (402 views)

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Re: [BryanC] Can someone educate me?

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Some of the townspeople here, who are pro-teacher (generally due to an immediate family member being a teacher), are telling people that all parents should support the teachers because the President passed a “secret” law that will make all public schools in Mexico private - thus all parents would have to pay for their child's education. A lady showed a “government document” stating this to my wife (the lady's husband happens to be a teacher). I don't think the government is into passing secret laws and then typing them on a document and distributing them. Sound like a ruse by the unions to drum up support from parents. We live in a small town, and a lot of people keep themselves very isolated here. They will believe anything anyone tells them and not do anything to find out the actual story.
.

Interesting,that's the exact same rumor circulating in my in-laws rancho outside of Salamanca,Gto.

skier14

Sep 23, 2013, 7:42 PM

Post #25 of 33 (385 views)

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Re: [cbviajero] Can someone educate me?

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Very interesting, as my step-daughter told me the same story yesterday at her house in Tonala, Jalisco. "Her sister told her so it had to be true". Why don't the people read more or research the facts? Could it be lack of education?

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