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YucaLandia

Aug 28, 2013, 6:46 PM

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Who Are Mexicans ?

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On a different thread, an idea was floated that some Mexican's reluctance to have their picture taken might have roots in older indigenous ("Indian") beliefs. One individual talked about how over 100 million Mexicans likely have no connections to the older indigenous beliefs about losing some essential essence (soul or spirit) being taken by photographs. He went on to cite how because the people he has talked to never mentioned it, including some of his Mexican wife's grandparents not caring if people took their picture. Some people may be "full of it", as proposed, but is it possible that things from the past shape our beliefs, without us knowing it?

Mexicans, Canadians, and Americans buy a lot of the same products, watch incredibly similar TV commercials for those products, drive the same cars, are shifting to generic mall cultures, have younger generations that live highly-connected lives filled with near-non-stop tweeting and texting their friends, and are sold similar fantasies by our politicians. Does this homogenization of cultures, ultimately, make us "the same" ?

Just what makes us different, .... what made us different, .... or the same?

What has shaped our beliefs?

Are there well-hidden generations-deep roots that influence how we see and experience the world?
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 28, 2013, 6:50 PM)

norteño

Aug 28, 2013, 7:24 PM

Post #2 of 34 (1607 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Who Are Mexicans ?

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I have never noticed any particular reluctance on the part of Mexicans to having their pictures taken. In this connection it is amusing to note that Carl Lumholtz in his "Unknown Mexico", about his travels during the Porfiriato, said of Mexicans in Sonora villages, "They are inordinately fond of being photographed".

geezer56

Aug 29, 2013, 12:01 AM

Post #3 of 34 (1561 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Who Are Mexicans ?

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Mexicans know when to work and when to party. They value family, cold beer, humor ranging from humor negro, doble sentidos, bombas, and a good laugh.

citlali

Aug 29, 2013, 4:33 AM

Post #4 of 34 (1553 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Who Are Mexicans ?

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This "theory" about the fear or reluctance of being photographed coming from " old indigeneaous" may sound nice but I would like to know which indigenous fear being photographed in Mexico because of the fear of their soul being stolen. Hopi yes but in Mexico I have yet to run accross any indigenous who fear the robbing of their soul.

Many indigenous in Chiapas do not want to be photographed because they feel exploited, they thing their picture will be sold and they will not benefit., they think it is disrepectful to take their picture or that of their religuius items, cutoms, their church etc.. , they also hate spies and the government in general or any interference so that is another reason..but the stealing of the soul is not one their fears.
Many indigenous I know in Oaxaca love to be photographed.
Not long ago we were invited to a wedding in a village in Chiapas and were asked to take picture in the church. I could not bring myself to do it as many indigenous friends have drilled in my head " no picture in the churches" . I gave my camera to one of the relatives I knew and told him to take what ever picture they wantesd He took tons of pictures . I gave the pictures to the groom and everyone was happy.
I think the reluctance about being photographed by stranger is coming from the fact that taking pictures of strangers without their permission is a lack of respect more than anything else. Frankly I feel exactly the same way. A woman photographer from Chamula started taking pictures of me in an exhibition and I did not care for it, I asked her for money and everyone laughed at the role reversal but she got the point and quit.

Bennie García

Aug 29, 2013, 5:31 AM

Post #5 of 34 (1549 views)

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Re: [citlali] Who Are Mexicans ?

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Excellent post. For those who actually believe the lost soul theory, I would love to see some actual evidence instead of unsubstantiated claims found in blogs.

Blogs and other self published material are banes of computer and internet technology and should be taken with a large grain of Oaxacan/organic/fleur de mer/Cuyutlan salt.

(This post was edited by Bennie García on Aug 29, 2013, 5:35 AM)

arbon

Aug 29, 2013, 9:24 AM

Post #6 of 34 (1491 views)

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Re: [citlali] Who Are Mexicans ?

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citlali wrote...
"A woman photographer from Chamula started taking pictures of me in an exhibition and I did not care for it, I asked her for money and everyone laughed at the role reversal but she got the point and quit."

Would the woman photographer from Chamula have photos posted on the net of "the running of the bulls" in Chamula and the "Monkey men"?

and have you personally seen any photos of the same subjects?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

La Isla

Aug 29, 2013, 11:05 AM

Post #7 of 34 (1461 views)

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Re: [norteño] Who Are Mexicans ?

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In my travels around Mexico, I've found that often children come up to me and beg to have their pictures taken. With adults, I always ask for permission, and they usually smile and say, OK. The only exception to this has been in indigenous areas, especially in Chiapas, where I have only taken pictures of people I was introduced to by mutual friends.

richmx2

Aug 29, 2013, 2:18 PM

Post #8 of 34 (1418 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Who Are Mexicans ?

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Oh c'mon... was that "lost soul" meme ever true? It sounds like one of any number of "explanations" put on observed behavior that is perfectly normal, but given some special significance by the observer... based on nothing really. As an example, I'd point to all the "explanations" I've heard of why Mexican police cars tend to cruise with the gumballs lit. I've heard everything from "It's a unique thing to... [fill in your town]" to "so you can get your bribes ready" to "It's because they're uneducated and love the show"... i.e., mostly racist and/or uninformed nonsense. Cop cars run with the lights on in most Latin American and European countries because they have the lights and they're emergency vehicles and that's just the way it is.

A lot of people don't like having their photos taken unawares because they're not comfortable with it... or, they resent being the object of your unwanted gaze, or are uncomfortable with being the object of attention of outlandish outsiders gabbling in some unknown tongue. In short, because it makes them uncomfortable.

Really, have you ever heard of any serious study of any of the indigenous cultures in Latin America that talk about any sort of "soul theft"? Please!

If there is a cultural difference, it is that Mexicans (and Latin Americans for the most part) are more formal in their relationships with strangers... and that includes strangers wanting to take their photos. Among friends and neighbors, people are positive camera hogs here. Heck, people take photos of themselves having lunch.

http://mexfiles.net
http://editorialmazatlan.com

citlali

Aug 29, 2013, 2:32 PM

Post #9 of 34 (1411 views)

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Re: [arbon] Who Are Mexicans ?

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he Chamula photographer does not have any pictures of ceremonies in Chamula. She has lots of pictures on plants and the making of posh but no religious ceremony. I have an engraving of the monkey men and I have seen some pictures of them, maybe by Tonio Turok , I do not remember. I have seen pictures in books of the Monkey men , I do not remember having seen any of the run of the bulls in Chamula.
I got invited by another Chamula woman to the Mardi Gras fiesta next year and I probably will go ..without a camera but I will ask her if anyone she knows has pictures.

sam.I.am

Aug 29, 2013, 3:29 PM

Post #10 of 34 (1399 views)

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Re: [citlali] Who Are Mexicans ?

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Wow! monkey men! Wow! tell me more.

YucaLandia

Aug 30, 2013, 6:33 AM

Post #11 of 34 (1323 views)

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Re: [sam.I.am] Who Are Mexicans ? Monkey men?

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Monkey men .... This is what I was thinking of. ... I had no idea that Monkey men even existed...
We each imagine that we know who "Mexicans" are, to make sense of life and allow us to get through the days. Our beliefs are especially strong when we have Mexican family and friends, and have talked at length with people born before the Revolution. The foto issue is just a jumping-off point from the tip of the iceberg. From interviews with Mexicans in their 90's across the Yucatan peninsula, it's clear that Mexico was very different back in the day.

Still, today's Mexican young adults and kids are looking a lot like their NOB cousins in Canada and the USA. The time spent-with-elders and the attention paid-to-elders are like stones tumbling down canyon walls. We buy a lot of the same products; ... watch incredibly similar TV commercials for those products; ... drive the same cars; ... are sold similar fantasies by our politicians and big media; ... are shifting to generic mall cultures and live highly-connected-lives ... ~ especially as young Mexicans fill their lives with facebook-ing and near-non-stop tweeting & texting their friends.

Does this homogenization of cultures, ultimately, make us "the same" ?

Do the descendents of 380 years of British-Americans, German-Americans, and French-Canadians (who populated Canada and the US), now, really experience Mexican the same way as descendants of Españoles, as descendants of indigenous peoples, ... as mestizas, ... and as current indígenas ?

================================================
Mexico currently has 15.7 million officially indigenous people out of a total population of 112 million, meaning much higher percentages of indigenous Natives/Aboriginals (14%) than likely found in either Canada (4.3%), and USA (0.9%).

It's clear that the national language of Mexico is Spanish, making Mexico the world's largest Spanish speaking country. How many of us realize that, in addition to Spanish, another 62 indigenous languages are actively spoken in Mexico, and that Mexico is home to more indigenous people than any other country in the Americas?

I know that old-timers on Mexconnect have valuable experiences and deep understanding of Mexico - and I think the rest of us could benefit from their perspectives.

How many know even the greetings in 2 or even 1 indigenous language?

If you can't say "Good Morning" to someone, can you really know who they are ... or say how they think?

Does the current higher percentage of Natives affect Mexico?

What does it mean to be Mexican?

Who are Mexicans ?

steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 30, 2013, 6:59 AM)

citlali

Aug 30, 2013, 8:22 AM

Post #12 of 34 (1264 views)

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Re: [sam.I.am] Who Are Mexicans ?

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The monkey men are mythological characters from the Popol Vuh. Chamulan practices what they call traditional catholicism which is a mixture of christian and Mayan religion . The church teaches them catholicism (kind of) and teaches them the Popol Vuh hence traditional...
The monkey men story or origin has been explained to me a couple of time but I am still confused about the story..I was quite proud of my self after I got the story that the jungle was evil and the monkey that are populating the jungle were also evil so when I ask one of my Chamulan friend if all the monkeys were evil she said no " some are good" that is the point were I disconnected. She told me she would go with me to the fiesta next year and tell me about it but she also said that her father had died young so she did not knw al the stories ..I do not think I wil get it next year either religion confuses the heck out of me.
I know one thing for sure all these seemingly fun races and symbolical beating up are considered religious and it is recommended very strongly that you do not take any pictures at any of the events going on outside during carnaval or a hord of drunks will descent on you in a very unpleasant manner.

citlali

Aug 30, 2013, 9:17 AM

Post #13 of 34 (1259 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Who Are Mexicans ? Monkey men?

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Yucalandia I know greetings in a couple of indigenous languages and that does not mean I know anything about their culture. I have known some indigenous people for over 10 years, spend time with them have been invited to their ceremonies and family events and I have learned new things every time I spend time with them and I think you could say that about most people wether indigenous or not.
I probably know more about indigenous Mexico that I know about non indigenous Mexico and I still know very little. Every time I spend time with my frieends I learn more but the gap between cultures is enormous and I am speaking of people of my generation and people in their 30´s. Gap between generations is enormous , gaps between indigenous cultures themselves is very big and gap between indigenous and non-indigenous is enormous and yet they are are all part of Mexico . I think that is what makes the country so fascinating.
I had a funny experience this week, I went with an indigenous friend who is totally illeterate but very bright to buy a sewing machine that embroiders. The woman selling the machine was explaining he machine to my friend and telling her about the stitches that each letter represented, so I told the woman not to waste her time with the lettering system but to let my friend try the machine.
My friend sat down to see if the machine would do some of the stitches she wanted to do to embroider her traditional clothes, the salesperson said the machine would not do these stitches and my friend proved her wrong in two seconds. The saleperson was blown away and learned new designs and way of embroidering in the process. I laugh and told the woman, my friend may not be able to get read the letters but give her the machine and she will show you a few things..

That is the story of the people here...we all have our own strength and can all learn from each other , the old folks can learn from the young just as the young can learn from the old, no one has exclusivity on knowledge or wisdom no matter age or culture.

YucaLandia

Aug 30, 2013, 9:19 AM

Post #14 of 34 (1255 views)

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Re: [citlali] Who Are Mexicans ? Monkey men?

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Bix anikech? Bax ka’wali?

The pieces of the puzzle are coming together.

What group(s) and where?
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 30, 2013, 9:23 AM)

cbviajero

Aug 30, 2013, 10:38 AM

Post #15 of 34 (1232 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Who Are Mexicans ? Monkey men?

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[
What does it mean to be Mexican?
steve

That depends.

YucaLandia

Aug 30, 2013, 12:03 PM

Post #16 of 34 (1207 views)

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Re: [cbviajero] Who Are Mexicans ? Monkey men?

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... on ...
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

citlali

Aug 30, 2013, 12:18 PM

Post #17 of 34 (1200 views)

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Re: [cbviajero] Who Are Mexicans ? Monkey men?

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no kidding, one group gets visa for the US without a problem and the other can forget it...

citlali

Aug 30, 2013, 12:22 PM

Post #18 of 34 (1198 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Who Are Mexicans ? Monkey men?

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Yucatecan Maya and the answer is uts.

so where is chan from?

mcm

Aug 30, 2013, 12:23 PM

Post #19 of 34 (1198 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Who Are Mexicans ?

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If I wanted to try to answer that question, I wouldn't be looking at an English-language forum geared to foreigners living in or traveling to Mexico!
I might start with Labyrinth of Solitude, written more than 60 years ago (and widely available in English translation), and I certainly would look at studies by social anthropologists addressing aspects of the issue (note that most academic studies frame a question much more narrowly, in hopes of actually coming to some conclusion). I'd read Mexican newspapers, especially opinion pages and letters to the editors, but also looking at discussions of current events (eg energy reform, education reform). Of course I'd talk to my neighbors and friends and acquaintances (an unending source of information and misinformation!). I'd delve into the social and political history of different areas of the country. I expect that I'd come up with dozens of valid answers.
But I probably wouldn't ask such a general question.
Good luck, guys.

citlali

Aug 30, 2013, 12:28 PM

Post #20 of 34 (1195 views)

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Re: [mcm] Who Are Mexicans ?

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These are totally boring questions anyways , that pop up on a regular basis on expat forums. I saw the same questions in another forum about the French and the questions always get answered by foreigners who have no clue or very intellectual and book learned answers that are equally idiotic.

La Isla

Aug 30, 2013, 1:18 PM

Post #21 of 34 (1174 views)

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Re: [citlali] Who Are Mexicans ?

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Here's some interesting information about monkeys and Mayan mythology. It seems that monkeys were the result of the second attempt of the gods to create men: http://www.mesoamerica-foundation.org/cultureandhistory/themayamonkey.html.

YucaLandia

Aug 30, 2013, 1:56 PM

Post #22 of 34 (1167 views)

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Re: [mcm] Who Are Mexicans ?

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"Labyrinth of Solitude" has good points, but does it touch on the Mexicans under age ... 27 or 30 ?

There's a whole generation of Mexican latch-key kids, who are now young adults, with professional degrees, and a whole generation of Mexican young adult/latch-key kids who grew up with mom and dad both out working, and no professional degrees.

Do the old platitudes and saws of 50 - 70 years ago, still apply?

These 80% of Mexicans, all under age 30, are not really described by the sources recommended.

Just who are these 95.5 million people - "the young" 80%'ers ?

The indigenous ones represent 19 million or so young people, with cell phones... who are not seeming parts of the lists described.

I suspect we can learn more by watching telenovela episodes of Mentir para Vivir....
The people covered by the Labyrinth of Solitude represent less than 5% of Mexicans. Do we really imagine that the writings of Jack Kerouac, the Beat generation, and On The Road, represent the large majority of Americans or Canadians?

Who are Mexicans?

???
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 30, 2013, 2:03 PM)

citlali

Aug 30, 2013, 4:29 PM

Post #23 of 34 (1129 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Who Are Mexicans ?

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yes , the first attempt was with wood , then monkeys and the third try was the charm with the corn people, that is the Popol Vuh version but the Chamulans have a twist to it and I do not remember what it is.

Bennie García

Aug 30, 2013, 4:47 PM

Post #24 of 34 (1120 views)

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Re: [mcm] Who Are Mexicans ?

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I agree. If someone was seeking the answer to such a broad question they would have far more luck going about it in the manner you mention. A question as broad as this about a country so diverse is impossible to answer, especially on a web board of non-Mexican participants.

richmx2

Aug 31, 2013, 2:42 AM

Post #25 of 34 (1045 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Who Are Mexicans ?

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"Labyrinth of Solitude" has good points, but does it touch on the Mexicans under age ... 27 or 30 ?

I'd ask if it touches on anyone under 80... the thing was published back in 1950. How applicable it was to the many Mexicos (a title of another classic... though in English), I've never been sure. The only sweeping generalization I take to be true is that it contains multitudes, and accepts its contradictions with more grace than some others.

http://mexfiles.net
http://editorialmazatlan.com

(This post was edited by richmx2 on Aug 31, 2013, 2:47 AM)

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