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Carol Schmidt


Oct 11, 2003, 10:42 PM

Post #1 of 15 (1364 views)

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Should gringas wear shorts in Mexico?

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I mentioned in my posts on a related thread that some people think gringas (and maybe gringos too) should not wear shorts in Mexico, even though many Mexican men and a growing number of women also wear shorts during the hot season.

The number of Mexicans in shorts in public undoubtedly differs from place to place--it would probably be far less likely in a small rural town than in a city known as a tourist attraction for U.S. and Canadian visitors. Jennifer Rose suggested that this topic perhaps deserved a new thread of its own, even though it has been discussed on MexConnect before.

I definitely wear shorts in San Miguel de Allende, though I wouldn't do it to a church service or a business function, the same kinds of places and events I wouldn't wear shorts to in the U.S. either.

I have never felt uncomfortable in shorts here, though I have heard that there is one older U.S. male here who accosts gringas in shorts on the street and tells them they shouldn't be dressed so immodestly. He probably hates shorts on women in the U.S. as well. Those gringas who won't wear shorts in Mexico may also be ones who wouldn't wear shorts in the U.S. either, for whatever reasons.

My partner and I often watch a young Mexican woman walk by in the shortest of miniskirts and the tightest of navel-bearing, cleavage-revealing blouses and the highest of stiletto heels, and we say, "At least she's not wearing shorts!"

This question ties into the other thread on whether language transfers values, whether a communication in English in Mexico transmits U.S. values as well as the bare-bones message--the connotations of words as well as the denotations. Add the attitude and body language of the person who is talking and you have far more than words.

The very appearance and presence of a gringo in Mexico always communicates a message, and the complexities and possibilities of that message are possibly infinite. Should cultures even intermix, especially when one is less powerful and/or endangered, since the very intermixing will cause change, in both cultures, actually.

When a remote tribe in the Rain Forest is studied even by inconspicuous, respectful scientists from an "advanced" culture, that tribe is changed.

And should that tribe be changed, particularly if it has practices we "civilized" ones find immoral or unhealthy, like child marriages and wife beating and lack of sanitation? Are we allowing a proud civilization to continue if we stay away, or are we instead dooming innocent people to early death and violence by not introducing at least some aspects of our culture?

In the same way, should gringas wear long skirts even when it's 100 F. out, ensuring that all women forever more will be trapped in uncomfortable, binding clothing when there are freer alternatives? Should we not give a damn and just wear what we please, even if some people in Mexico may find shorts offensive? Should we encourage the younger generation which seems more likely to wear shorts or side with the older generation which frowns on it?

Should we walk like a peasant woman down the street, face down, rebozo over our faces, never daring to speak up, so as not to be offensive to some Mexicans, or should we be a role model for Mexican women by striding proudly and freely, speaking up, taking stands, even if some Mexicans find that offensive?

As I recall, there was considerable support on MexConnect the last time this issue was discussed for the idea that gringas should not wear shorts in public. It's a new MexConnect--what does this forum think now?

Carol Schmidt



Guapo Gabacho


Oct 12, 2003, 3:03 AM

Post #2 of 15 (1356 views)

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Re: [Carol Schmidt] Should gringas wear shorts in Mexico?

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Rebozos yes, but shorts no.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children.


Rolly


Oct 12, 2003, 5:12 AM

Post #3 of 15 (1347 views)

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Re: [Carol Schmidt] Should gringas wear shorts in Mexico?

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I see lots of women wearing shorts in Lerdo. There are no gringas or tourists here. In my Mexican family, 6 of 6 women wear shorts.

I wear cutoffs all summer as do lots of men, including viejos like me. In my family, 5 of 8 men wear short pants.

At my building project all 3 workers wear cutoffs. I have not seen anyone working in a store in shorts.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook


(This post was edited by Rolly on Oct 12, 2003, 5:19 AM)


lbc

Oct 12, 2003, 6:52 AM

Post #4 of 15 (1334 views)

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Re: [Carol Schmidt] Should gringas wear shorts in Mexico?

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Carol writes:

Should we not give a damn and just wear what we please, even if some people in Mexico may find shorts offensive? Should we encourage the younger generation…



I think we should give a damn. I do. I have so for 6 months. I have worn nothing but shorts. They are the longer, baggy types the type the kids actually wear—the Bugle Boys etc. But they look good on me and are comfortable. I have never seemed to offend anyone and experience nothing but open arms to my presence dressed in American shorts.



Change is slow and sometimes painful. The old codgers are not going to like what I am saying. But we must give a damn if we encourage progress not regress.


Guapo Gabacho


Oct 12, 2003, 12:50 PM

Post #5 of 15 (1295 views)

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Re: [lbc] Should gringas wear shorts in Mexico?

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lbc ,

I have more than once, on more than one occasion, stopped people from entering churches dressed in shorts. They tend to ignore the rules thinking that it is ok in a rarely used place like the one in Atotonilco, Gto. I hope you don’t forget how your dressed.



EDIT: Sorry, the bold was because I used Word as my editor and a c/p can have some strange results.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children.

(This post was edited by Guapo Gabacho on Oct 12, 2003, 3:14 PM)


sfmacaws


Oct 12, 2003, 1:11 PM

Post #6 of 15 (1287 views)

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Re: [Carol Schmidt] Should gringas wear shorts in Mexico?

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Quote
there is one older U.S. male here who accosts gringas in shorts on the street and tells them they shouldn't be dressed so immodestly



Good Grief! I might have to introduce his nose to the pavement if he made a comment like that to me. I can't believe the things people think they have the right to say to others.

Clearly one should respect other peoples religion and if entering their place of worship abide by the rules. This is one reason you'll never see me entering a mosque.

On the public street, it is only my comfort and my beliefs that will matter in what I wear. If I want to move around with as little notice as possible then I will dress so that I cause as little comment as possible. It's still my choice.

Obviously, Mexican culture places a high value on appearance, more so than in the US in my estimate. That is fine, that is them. I actually doubt that they make the same assumptions about gringos apparel as they do about mexicans but that probably varies with the person. None of that means that I have to adopt the same attitudes. One of the joys of moving between cultures is that you can pick and choose those things you want from each. Some of the values of Mexican culture I will leave to them and most of those have to do with how women are treated, perceived and expected to behave.

Why isn't it important enough to start a thread on whether men should be allowed to wear black socks with sandals? Now that is a common and painful sight.

Jonna, finally on the road again heading south


dumois


Oct 12, 2003, 3:10 PM

Post #7 of 15 (1272 views)

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Re: [Carol Schmidt] Should gringas wear shorts in Mexico?

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Nice legs? Go ahead! No? Then please don't.

Saludos from Guadalajara,

Dumois


believer111

Oct 13, 2003, 2:09 PM

Post #8 of 15 (1204 views)

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Re: [Carol Schmidt] Should gringas wear shorts in Mexico?

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hola todos:

Having lived and traveled in mexico over the years, short-shorts are still considered in 'bad taste' bythe mexicans although in most places you will not be ostrasized (spelling). Shorts of the longer baggy type are acceptable especially if you are traveling and hiking and climbing places. It is their country and their customs so I tend to respect that. Wear what you want in private or at resorts that allow same, but living with and doing business with the mexican people...from border to border...it is just more comfortable to respect who they are. "Educating" them comes with time and trust.

I have found that wearing skirts or long skirts of the 'broomstick pleat variety' is both cool and convenient. Remember for us gals, bathroom/toilet facilities are not ideal in most places, and a skirt facilitates 'going to the bathroom' in the wilds much easier. I always carry toilet paper, and those anti-bacterial cleansing wipes with me. Men don't have the same problems that women encounter with travel and banos.

The anti-bacterial cleansing wipes are necessary to keep hands clean after handling money and other items while out and about. Also good for cleansing face, feet, spills, and bathroom use.

Anyway, short shorts are not a real good idea.



nos vemos y shalom,

gret

Dios le bendiga,
hermana greta


ET

Oct 13, 2003, 9:24 PM

Post #9 of 15 (1166 views)

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Hand Sanitation

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"believer111" writes:
....The anti-bacterial cleansing wipes are necessary to keep hands clean after handling money and other items while out and about. Also good for cleansing face, feet, spills, and bathroom use.....


One comment here is that these "anti-bacterial cleansing wipes", are really of marginal value as a hand sanitizing product, better than wiping your hands on that broomstick skirt, but no substitute for washing with running water and any type of soap (antibacterial soaps are a nicety but not required - it's the mechanical action of rubbing your hands with the soap, and the running water to carry away contaminants that is doing the trick). The problem with the wipes are threefold - (1) studies using agents such as ultraviolet fluorescent indicators show that coverage using wipes is rather incomplete, (2) the amount of active ingredient on the wipes is limited and tends to immobilize before it has much impact, and (3) the active ingredients, most commonly quaternary ammonium compounds such as benzalkonium chloride are of marginal value as disinfectants (for our Mexican tie-in try Acosta-Gio et. al.'s El cloruro de benzalconio: inaceptable para esterilizar o desinfectar instrumental médico o dental, pages 570-573 of the November-December 2001 Salud Pública de México). The quaternary ammonium compounds also tend to be associated with a fair number of incidences of contact dermatitis. Since your user profile indicates that environmental activism is one of your interests, the anti-bacterial wipes also generate non-biodegradable waste, with the wipes themselves being slow to decompose because of the anti-bacterial component, and the aluminized paper packets having too low of an aluminum component to recycle without huge energy inputs.

A better alternative would be to carry pocket size bottles of alcohol gel cleanser such as "Purell", "Epi-Clenz", and a host of others , which you could refill from a larger container at your convenience. Studies have found that the cleansers containing ?60% ethanol are of enough value as a supplemental hand sanitizing agent that the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recognized them in their 2002 Guideline for Hand Hygiene in Health-Care Settings (supplemental is emphasized here because by far the preferred approach is still washing). In light of earlier comments about contact dermatitis from the quaternary ammonium compounds it should be noted that alcohols including ethanol tend to dry (defat) the skin when used excessively, although the concentration of ethanol in the gel is low enough that this is less of a problem and the other components in the gels further reduce the effect. It should also be noted that there's enough alcohol in the gels that caution around open flames is needed; you want to wait until your hands are well dried before lighting up that cigarette (on the other hand discouraging smoking could be considered to be another plus of the gels). The alcohol gels can be found in both pocket-sized bottles and larger containers in drugstores and other locations where you find the anti-bacterial wipes.


believer111

Oct 13, 2003, 10:23 PM

Post #10 of 15 (1157 views)

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Re: [ET] Hand Sanitation

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yes, yes, yes! All you say is true. (However, women know the value of carrying these packets.) as for'tips/info', I offer succint and easy-to-do advice for the sojouner from one who is experienced (how the heck do you spell that?) in this area.
The little packets are not for surgical proceedures but suffice in an emergency...and are great for us gals.!
Liquid anti-bacterial soaps/cleaner is a must and can be purchsed in small travel bottles for back packs, bags/purses,& glove compartments. The 'waterless' kind is available also providing temporary cleaning should there not be water nearby.

Another simple sanitizer is white vinegar. I use it here for counter tops and cleaning fruits and vegetables (among other things)...as effective as clorox.

thanks, et.

shalom
Dois le bendiga

Dios le bendiga,
hermana greta


ET

Oct 13, 2003, 11:45 PM

Post #11 of 15 (1150 views)

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Re: [believer111] Hand Sanitation

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"believer111" writes:
....(However, women know the value of carrying these packets.)....and are great for us gals.!....


The idea that sanitation is some kind of sex-linked trait is a quaint and outdated one, and these types of comments are offensive. Unless of course you're referring to using these wipes on certain portions of your anatomy, at which point I apologize and instead strongly recommend that you read the product packaging carefully, as this is not a recommended use of the disinfectant-type wipes (portions of my anatomy are threatening to pack up and go on strike at the very thought of being wiped with a QAC).

As for succinct and easy-to-do advice, there's no difference between "use anti-bacterial wipes" and "use an alcohol gel like Purell" particularly because both entail a trip to the drugstore or similar outlet. There is, however, a significant difference in effectiveness.


Quote
....Another simple sanitizer is white vinegar. I use it here for counter tops and cleaning fruits and vegetables (among other things)...as effective as clorox.....

White vinegar (4-7% acetic acid) is nowhere near to "clorox" (5-7% sodium hypochlorite) in terms of efficacy as a sanitizer or disinfectant. Vinegar will move the pH of whatever substrate it's applied to slightly out of the range which some microorganisms need to survive and proliferate; it will also act as somewhat of a surfactant, allowing dirt (and microorganisms which are harbored in the dirt) to be more readily carried off of surfaces by water. Sodium hypochlorite is an oxidizer, chemically destroying the structure of proteins. You'd have to marinate fruits and vegetables for an extended period of time in vinegar to obtain the same type of kill of pathogenic organisms that a quick dip in a sodium hypochlorite solution would give you. At the same time, simply scrubbing fruits and vegetables under running tap water to remove dirt and similar organic materials is a significant step towards food sanitation unless you're dealing with a particularly virulent pathogen (think shigella) or are dealing with an elevated-risk population (they very young or elderly, and the immunocompromised).

The only real appeal to using vinegar as a sanitizer is that it's considerably less toxic than a sodium hypochlorite solution. You should not, however, mislead people with claims of equivalent efficacy.


believer111

Oct 14, 2003, 1:54 PM

Post #12 of 15 (1086 views)

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Re: [ET] Hand Sanitation

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Trust me!

Dios le bendiga,
hermana greta


jrice

Oct 14, 2003, 9:32 PM

Post #13 of 15 (1042 views)

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Re: [believer111] Should gringas wear shorts in Mexico?

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Context, as always, is everything (gad, that sounds a absolutist!)

There were at least 600 -- and most probably significantly more -- edecanes in breast-defining, midriff baring, bottom clinging outfits celebrating Herdez, Corona, Telmex and Televisa (the last of which has benefitted from the commercialized moral teachings of one of Mexico's most passionately religious advisory agencies, one still embracing the morality of Francisco Franco -- no lie -- while boasting of advising the company that employs Brozo.).

I do NOT advocate -- repeat, I do NOT advocate challenging the idea that local standards are often conservative.

But have any of you really watched the chief morning "news" programs? Last week we saw a "Big Brother VIP" girl having her gluteous maximus stroked in some detail by the guy she had been asigned (chose?) to sleep with (she'd dropped to covers to show this to the world). Dwarves boxing Kangaroos? Enought bejewelled navels to stock Fort Knox? And the hour indicates that these are WOMEN's programs. What is with these lingerie parades at 11 a.m.?

Anybody driven the Periferico in the last five years? Robots humping dogs (current hightlight, that)? Girls sprawled in g-strings, Maxim mag style? Racist-sexist quips about Asians? Anybody seen that Fiat "espectacular" with the ever so fine upper-thigh hairs? How about the g-string ads (some quite clever) that Wonderbra has started to run. Yowza! Those cheeks almost ran me off the Peje Vial the other day.

You can get away with quite a lot here. But the rules are dangerous, dark and deep for a foreigner.


believer111

Oct 14, 2003, 9:56 PM

Post #14 of 15 (1037 views)

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Re: [jrice] Should gringas wear shorts in Mexico?

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replying to jrice post:

Holy Moly, what does this mean? Because the crass and disrespectful 'show it off', does this mean it's OK? I think not.
the subject is 'should gringas wear shorts in mexico?'. We are the ambassadors of gringolandia and need to respect the culture we have 'invaded'!
Do we not expect the same?

(refer to my previous response)
shalom y Dios le bendiga

Dios le bendiga,
hermana greta


Georgia


Oct 15, 2003, 7:39 AM

Post #15 of 15 (1011 views)

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Re: [Carol Schmidt] Should gringas wear shorts in Mexico?

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Is this really the minefield that that posting string suggests? If you are concerned, how about just looking at what the local Mexican women are wearing in your locale, and going with that as a general standard? If they're wearing only dresses, all the time (doubtful), then a skirt is fine. If they seem to wear long pants but not shorts, pull out your jeans. Or if, as in Jocotepec, Ajijic, and Chapala, you see a number of Mexican women (not girls, women) wearing "walking short" length shorts, then do it! But mind Dumois' caution if you don't want to upset the male sensibilities. (Although, I must say, I find Mexican men a bit more generous about what they consider to be a good figure, bless them!)

That having been said, there are many tourists, from many lands, who wear whatever they want. No one will stone them.
 
 
 
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