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orangegirl

Jun 15, 2003, 6:23 PM

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Religion in Mexico?

Hello,

I am wondering about the various religious beliefs in Mexico? What is dominant? How much do you find that these beliefs affect everyday life?

dumois

Jun 16, 2003, 10:34 AM

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Re: [orangegirl] Religion in Mexico?

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Mexico is basically a Catholic country. According to the XII General Census (2000), 88% of those five years old or more are Catholics. You may check Census information on the INEGI site, http://www.inegi.gob.mx/...ingles/portadai.html.

Yes, religion influences many aspects of the Mexican life. I believe you may find a lot of information on that issue here on Mexico Connect.

Saludos desde Guadalajara,

Dumois

Estanislao

Jun 16, 2003, 11:27 AM

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A tour guide in Mazatlan told me: "95% of Mexicans are Catholic. The other 5% are priests."

Not true, of course, but it got a chuckle.

See the article in this month's Mexico Connect magazine on Mennonites in Mexico.
--
"It is advisable to look from the tide pool to the stars and then back to the tide pool again."
John Steinbeck and Ed Ricketts - The Log From The Sea Of Cortez
--
Estanislao

jennifer rose

Jun 16, 2003, 11:53 AM

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Re: [dumois] Religion in Mexico?

Only 88% of us may be Catholic, but 120% of us are Guadalupanos!

The Church – and that’s the Catholic Church – is the polestar of the community in nearly all of Mexico. It’s the history, the architecture, and the social glue for the community. But other faiths are practiced -- and protected -- in this country.

Carol Schmidt

Jun 16, 2003, 1:08 PM

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Re: [orangegirl] Religion in Mexico?

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There is also a large influx of fundamentalist evangelical Protestant groups who are missionaries to Mexico, and one big cause of the current conflicts in the Chiapas region is over the growing strength of the evangelicals being resisted by the traditional Catholic church.

Underlying much of Roman Catholicism is the paganism of the earlier religions--you will see a church pillar with a Catholic saint on top and symbols of earlier gods and concepts carved into the supports. In many of the fiesta events, while Mass is being celebrated inside a church, the pagan rites and dances are going on outside, with no apparent conflicts in anyone's mind.

You should probably read about the Christos wars in which Catholicism was officially driven underground around the 1920s and any priest or nun who showed themselves outside in religious habit could be arrested or killed, and about the grand sweeps of landholdings away from the wealthy church and back into the hands of the people. At one time in Mexican history the church owned a huge chunk of all land, I'm thinking more than half, but I'd have to check. The church was deeply ingrained into the culture as the only source of loan giving to the poor, and the repayments kept up a constant tightening of obligations with the citizenry.

This is just a tease to get you to read more about your question. The issue of religion in Mexico is a hugely rich and complex one.

Carol Schmidt

David Eidell

Jun 16, 2003, 1:56 PM

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Also I think it important to keep in mind the significance of the presence of The Virgin of Guadalupe in relation to Catholicism as practiced in Mexico. She is the epitome of hope amidst dispair for a majority of Catholic worshippers. Sort of like having one hand grasping the hand of God, the other reaching out to the "ordinary" person.

Some of the most bitter differences between indigenous factions in southern Mexico are based upon catholic versus non-catholic practices and belief.

On the other hand, it doesn't take too much imagination to conceptualize a religion-based US government running amuck. Jerry Falwell, as ambassador to Afghanistan?

I just wish that all religions would help people as much as their rhetoric promises that they would. (sigh)

David

raferguson

Jun 16, 2003, 4:05 PM

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Re: [orangegirl] Religion in Mexico?

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I see and hear more references to religion in Mexico than in the US. When I am riding a Mexican bus, and we pass a church or a shrine, people cross themselves. If the Bishop says something, the local paper may cover it as news. I often hear "Gracias a Dios" in Mexico. but I don't hear "Thank God" in the US as often. I would say that religion is more engrained in Mexico than in the US, more a part of the culture.

The whole issues of the Catholic Church coopting the pagan religions as part of the evangelization process is an ancient one, and goes back to the Romans. One of the evangelizers in ancient times went into a Roman town, noticed that they had a temple to the "Unknown God", and told them that Christ was that god. The Catholics do not look at this as a bad thing, more as a way to bring people to the true faith. I remember a priest in Guanajato state telling me that his church was built over a spot sacred to the wind god. The main cathedral in Mexico City is built over the ruins of the main Aztec temple. In parts of Chiapas the situation is more complex, with more of a synthesis of Christianity and the indian religion, rather than a coopting by the Catholic Church.

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

Georgia

Jun 16, 2003, 5:00 PM

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Interesting thread. I watched a Bill Moyers special last night -- actually just tuned in to part of it, and only watched for about 20 minutes -- but they spoke of the Virgin Mary and Christ child, as well as the virgin birth as appearing only in the gospel of Luke, who was a Greek. This madonna/deity/child theme was common in Greek religious worship and carried over into Christian belief. The Greeks called them goddess, but Christianity, admitting of only one God, has Mary as the Mother of God. It was provocative food for thought.

jrice

Jun 17, 2003, 10:45 AM

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Re: [orangegirl] Religion in Mexico?

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Catholicism is one of the roots of Mexican culture: the church ran the country hand in hand with the Spanish kings for 300 years and tried hard to enforce its monopoly of faith. The church was the largest landowner. Priests were given, by law, special privileges and exemptions.

However it's worth noting that in Mexico, as in most countries, an awful lot of people are only nominally religious and many -- some polls show most -- view the church establishment with great suspicion even if they subscribe to the faith.

One of the great struggles of the past 200 years of Mexican history has been the conflict over efforts by "liberals" to first weaken the church's grip on power and then to ensure it did not regain power.

That led to draconian restrictions on the church's role in politics, culminating in the Cristero wars of the late 1920s (see Jean Meyer's books). While things have eased in recent decades, it is still an enormously touchy subject. The idea of priests commenting about politics would seen commonplace in many countries, but it profoundly troubles many Mexicans who harbor lurking fears of the church's residual power and influence. There's a political angle of course: conservative Mexicans tried to silence the liberation theology of Mendez Arceo and Samuel Ruiz while left-leaning citizens (the Mexico Posible party) are currently trying to prosecute priests who tell voters to shun parties that favor abortion or homosexual unions.

Adrian

Jun 18, 2003, 2:30 PM

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My discussions with Mexican friends (mostly Catholic) and family (Protestants) has led me to consider the role of the church in preventing the left-shift in popular culture that most 1st world countries experienced in the 1960's.

Mexico is a conservative place where strong family ties are encouraged and supported. This familial strength, combined with the social pressure of the established church, seems to have largely prevented the dissolution of morals, the spread of moral relativism and the adaptation of situational ethics by most ordinary people (the power elite, natuarally, are in a class of their own).

However, it seems to me that the spread of euro-socialism is also allowing the left-liberals to gain a strong following amongst the educated middle-classes and upper-middle class intelligentsia. If we take the last 40 years of socio-cultural history from the US and Europe, we will see Mexico slide towards a cultural disintegration that organised religion will be powerless to prevent - being weakened by the process.

Although I am not religious I am beginning to understand how consistent and widespread belief can act as a 'glue' to hold a society together. As I depart for a new life in Mexico, I am hoping that glue will remain as strong as ever.

jrice

Jun 19, 2003, 7:35 PM

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Re: [adrian_j_r] Religion in Mexico?

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I'm not sure I'd agree with all of that hypothesis, if only because the whole Mexican situation seems outside the framework you mention.

Mexico has had a much stronger, and explicit, socialist tradition in latter two-thirds of the 20th century than did the United States. It had governments that announced they were promulgating "socialist" education, for example. Cardenas -- the most revered president of that century -- tossed the American oil companies out of the country and was a staunch supporter of Fidel Castro in his later years.

At the same time, during the late 1930s, you had a widespread radical right -- by some estimates 1 million pro-Nazi, pro-church (a sort of Francoish blend) sinarchistas.

The governments of the 1940s and 1950s were more conservative, but they repeatedly had to use very brutal methods to crush very expansive, widely popular labor unrest backed by socialists (and I don't mean even FDR-style Democrats. I mean real, honest-to-Stalin dictatorship of the proletariat socialists in many cases).

In 1968 (and again a few years later), you had vast student protests (even a young Zedillo was peripherally involved) that were crushed by literally murderous government thugs -- a wound that remains bitter and very current today. The government kidnapped, tortured and murdered hundreds of leftists -- and the Fox administration has named a special prosecutor to investigate that.

Many Mexican families are indeed strong, values-teaching places. But the institution of bigamy is not rare and is commonly referred to in popular culture.

The Mexican family is not an easy thing to generalize about. There are elements of great strength alongside a "casa chica" system that is large enough to be a subject of popular culture.

u01mph2

Apr 3, 2004, 8:28 AM

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Re: [orangegirl] Religion in Mexico?

I am carrying out a study, in Spanish, of views on Islam in Mexico.

If you are a Mexican resident or convert to Islam in Mexico, I would appreciate your participation, which is entirely confidential:

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~u01mph2/index.htm

Thank you,

Mark Paul Highfield

TomG

Apr 3, 2004, 10:46 AM

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I'm on pins and needles to know the results.

Carron

Apr 4, 2004, 8:59 AM

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One of the nicest things about living in Mexico is that "poll takers" don't interupt me just as my family is sitting down to dinner!

elcomputo

Apr 14, 2004, 8:34 PM

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Re: [orangegirl] Religion in Mexico?

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I have seen a couple of things in the year I've been in Mexico that may be worth mentioning. They may just be isolated things and not indicative of anything but, as I say, worth mentioning, I think.

I have come into contact with a number of what I would call intellectuals in Mexico. Most are still Catholic, but they are highly critical of the church. But a number of the women have converted to Bhuddism. I have no idea what this is all about. The daughter of a woman I met in Mexico City (whose boyfriend is a former priest) joined a fundamentalist Protestant group which was evidently led by a group of Mexican-Americans who brought their religion down from south Texas.

I have seen a number of Mormons (they have a church here) active in going door-to-door prosletizing. It is invariable one white kid and a Mexican kid. That may be why there are a number of houses in this town with placards on their front doors reading "Soy Catolico."

Another thing I've noticed was when I was living in my first rental in SMA. It was across the street from an Evangelical Protestant Church. Week by week the attendance over a period of six months increased continually. Sunday services lasted from 10:30 until 2:30, with a break for a communal lunch. The first hour consisted of singing to a garage rock band doing covers of songs (the only one I recognized was by "Hootie and the Blowfish"), undoubtedly with the lyrics replaced with a religious message. There were programs about every other night. There was a well-attended summer camp for kids and a program for rehabilitating alcoholics and drug addicts. The church compound was located smack in the middle of the worst gang area of SMA. It struck me, from what I could see, that the Catholic Church had better watch out. These guys were striking some kind of nerve with poor Mexicans.

As for Chiapas, that is a can of worms. At its root is a war between the indiginous people and the landowners (same as usual for Mexico, right?), but there are religious ramifications I don't understand about it. It seems to be the most under-reported story in Mexico, if not the world.

sandykayak

Apr 15, 2004, 9:20 AM

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Re: [elcomputo] Religion in Mexico?

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When I was in the Lake Chapala area last month I noticed a sign in front of a church (don't think it was Mormons) on the carretera:

FREE ENGLISH CLASSES (sign was in Spanish, of course)

My thoughts were that it was a shame that they were using this valuable "gift" as bait for proselytizing.
Sandy Kramer
Miami, Fla & El Parque

pat

Apr 15, 2004, 5:03 PM

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Sandy said, (much snipped), "My thoughts were that it was a shame that they were using this valuable "gift" as bait for proselytizing."

Hmmmm. I wonder. Sandy, had the sign been on a Catholic church, would you have thought they were using this valuable "gift" as bait? Or, do you object to churches, in general, offering educational courses (or any self-improvement courses) to its members? Or, is it the religion itself that you object to?

Pat

johanson

Apr 15, 2004, 5:28 PM

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Re: [pat] Religion in Mexico?

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On a lighter note, According to leaders of several churches on the shores of Lake Chapala, about 20% of us expats go to church.

I go, but I know so little about what is going on that the only thing they let me do at the Little Chapel is ring the bell and adjust the sound system.

Pete

wendy devlin

Apr 15, 2004, 5:32 PM

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Re: [elcomputo] Religion in Mexico?

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El Computo,

Your observations do seem to reflect many of the religious 'trends' affecting Mexico today.

As you mentioned, evangelical Protestant groups are making 'inroads' into the culture through specific techiques designed to appeal to those who feel disenfranchised in their own country or their traditional religion, Catholicism.

Some Mexican friends who are strong Catholics have expressed to me, that they fear the increased dissolution of social bonds or even what they consider to be aspects of their Mexican culture, by the intrusion of other non-traditional religions in their country. And then I have new converts to other faiths who believe that the traditional church did little to help feed themselves and their families.

Social change is often driven over first, people's need for 'tortillas'.

Followed by the struggle for the hearts and minds.

In regard to Chiapas, under-reported, perhaps.

I have found that many Mexicans find the culture in Chiapas to be as foreign to their viewpoints and experiences...as if it were in another country all together.

There are several books regarding the history of religious struggles there.

Pm me if you wish some titles.

Chiapas may be a unique part of Mexico, in that so much of its current history is still so closely connected to its indigeous past. Saludos Wendy

sandykayak

Apr 15, 2004, 6:23 PM

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Re: [pat] Religion in Mexico?

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I guess my "objection" is to proselytizing in general.
Sandy Kramer
Miami, Fla & El Parque

pat

Apr 15, 2004, 7:24 PM

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Re: [sandykayak] Religion in Mexico?

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Sandy said, "I guess my "objection" is to proselytizing in general."

Sandy, its kind of a stretch to equate a sign on a church offering free Spanish lessons to proselytizing, don'tcha think? I've learned that if someone's objection doesn't ring true, it's usually because they really object to something else they don't want to discuss. I suspect your real objection is with a specific religion, or with religion, in general... and that it's easier to criticize proselytizing than to criticize religion directly. Now, am I making a stretch?

I guess I am beating this dead horse because I am continually taken aback by how openly and freely people express objections to issues about religion these days....sometimes quite directly, and at other times, in an off-handed manner.

But then, I grew up when religion and politics were avoided in casual conversation, so as not to offend. Times have certainly changed, haven't they?

Esteban

Apr 15, 2004, 9:29 PM

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I think what a lot of people object to is when certain religions try and ram their beliefs down your throat. I've found that in Mexico, even the "Nuevo Cristianos" (fundamentalist christians), are not pushy like their counterparts in the US. I've seen busloads of gringo fundamentalist christians come down here using their arrogant aggressive attitudes and I find it detestable. There have been some articles written about these "shock" troops that stretch from the indigenous lands in British Columbia to Guatemala. Things have changed for sure.

(This post was edited by Esteban on Apr 15, 2004, 9:31 PM)

elcomputo

Apr 15, 2004, 9:30 PM

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Re: [wendy devlin] Religion in Mexico?

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Yeah, I guess Chiapas folk would be more closely related in their looks and their ways to Guatamalans than to people from Mexico City. I have detected a certain amount of discrimination here against people who look Mayan (more Asian than the typical mestizo). That possibly also relates to their isolation.

Carol Schmidt

Apr 15, 2004, 11:15 PM

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Wasn't Chiapas originally part of Guatemala, and don't they feel more aligned with that country than with Mexico? I also understand that a big part of the problem in Chiapas is conflict between evangelical Protestants making inroads into the traditional Catholicism/paganism blend that is found in Mexico. Some religious authority once said that Mexico is simultaneously the most Catholic and the least Catholic country in the world.

I love to see a parade in San Miguel with conchera dancers circling a float depicting the Virgin of Guadelupe, and maybe a half dozen young girls in white carrying a display of the Blessed Sacrament while a half dozen young boys in red and blue carrying toy machetes battle out the perpetual duality of good and evil, and somebody in a satan suit battles with someone in a bull costume, and a priest swings an incense dispenser while somebody in a native Indian costume throws wrapped hard candy to the kids on the sidelines and a cabellero on horseback struts his stuff, all of it part of a religious celebration.

Carol Schmidt

lbc

Apr 16, 2004, 8:02 AM

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Re: [Carol Schmidt] Religion in Mexico?

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Those lovely children of San Miguel have their "not so lovely" counterparts in pueblas like Corall de los piedras--20 miles outside San Miguel--who cannot go to school at age 13 or 14 because they cannot produce sus papeles which turns out to be simply their birth certificates.

I would love to see a parade in San Miguel… I paraphrased your homage and substituted what kind of parade I would like to see:

I [would] love to see a parade in San Miguel with conchera dancers circling a float depicting the Virgin of Guadelupe [wanting the children to have an education—handing out birth certificates to Mexican children whose parents were too ignorant or abandoned to register their births ]…while a half dozen young boys in red and blue carrying toy machetes battle out the perpetual duality of [those who have it all with their certificates and those who have NOTHING] … and somebody in a satan suit [an uneducated person] battles with someone in a bull costume [another uneducated person] , and a priest [a teacher] swings an incense dispenser while somebody in a native Indian costume[those who go to school] throws wrapped hard candy [and birth certificates] to the kids on the sidelines and a cabellero on horseback….[a person with education] struts his stuff, all of it part of a religious celebration [and a plea to educate its people== condemning the injustice of denying them an education because they do not have birth certificates and only giving them lots of religion without a plan]...

that's the parade I would like to see.

(This post was edited by lbc on Apr 16, 2004, 8:23 AM)

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