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NEOhio

Jun 3, 2004, 1:13 PM

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Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

Somethings are better left unsaid, or at least said privately......For a newbie who has been reading for weeks now I am disheartened by the number of private posts with regard to all kinds of various questions I have posed.

Most of this information sent privately is not necessarily contrary to what I am reading, but it is significantly more enlightening by being more specific than the information posted publicly.

Granted some of the private posts are "bashing" but all of it is illuminating and I appreciate the education, but I worry that the "public" face of the forum seems to be without rancor and the private posts are more critical, more specific and thus more realistic.

It is the critical analysis that is most helpful, so wouldn't it be the most helpful to be more up front in the public postings?

I found the response from Losher to my question, " Why too young?" to be refreshing in its candor. The private post Losher was sent was evenmore so, and the private posts from others with regard to Loshers comments VERY much more candid than anything I have read here. That said, I respect that Losher was willing to put those thoughts on the public forum. Do I think Losher was able to make an assessemnt in a half-day - No; do I think that Losher is able to see the forest for the trees, No. But I am not controlled by any one thing in my life so to me being that inflexible is unrealistic, but it isn't for Losher and I think that response is very revealing to people who are thinking about coming down.

Also thought provoking for people wanting to come down, and living away from Americans, is the recent post by the fellow in Guan - who after 2 years admits he is missing americans and is glad he rented so he can easily move on.

One item that is presented in private posts, but again not publicly, is the social-economic stratification of the American community. It apparently exists and as is human nature like seeks like in most situations - mexican society is socially stratified, primarily by skin color whereas I hope americans are working toward being over that we tend to stratifiy ourselves by economic and social alliances - which at their core still reflect skin color and other outward signs of prosperity or lack of it.

Loshers comment about the social aspect of not being included is well made - although the best scenario is total acceptance of all by all - we know thats not true. For instance, there are previous posts some time ago that touch on the "ladies who lunch" stereo-type.

All in all these things are just for thinking - after all we are americans and we put the best face forward and don't show our warts - whereas a greater part of the world will tell you what you don't want to hear, even if you haven't asked them for an opinion. (Take your shots, I left myself open)

I am looking forward to a visit and some good conversations - and some noisy ones too!

Jerseycoa

Jun 3, 2004, 1:20 PM

Post #2 of 39 (1596 views)

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Re: [NEOhio] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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You make me want to read the private posts. ;)

A frank discussion would be best for me as I try to learn my way through. But most public boards do develop an accepted etiquette over time that suits them, just to avoid bloodshed. I imagine there would have been battles past to account for the polite tone here. While I too have the sense of getting the smaller picture, it's terrific there is so much I need to know that I am finding in the archives and discussions.
Doris

NEOhio

Jun 3, 2004, 1:39 PM

Post #3 of 39 (1575 views)

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Re: [Jerseycoa] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

I agree that you have it right - that why the private posts proliferate - and decorum is required in a polite society - I still however think that we could have more information in a gentle way - and if the moderators would tolerate a small modicum of caustic disagreement since we are all adults we should be able to handle a few personal arrows to allow for a freer exchange. Bloodshed would be a different story - and I don't doubt that there has been some. But for those people who want to go to Mexico on a shoestring the nicey-nicey come on down attitude on the public forum is NOT reflective of the private thoughts.

Like you said, the small picture is better than none ..... and a place to start.

I found it helpful to eventually read by poster after I had read the threads.

Jerseycoa

Jun 3, 2004, 2:07 PM

Post #4 of 39 (1564 views)

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In Reply To

I found it helpful to eventually read by poster after I had read the threads.

Thanks for that tip. I wouldn't have thought of it.
Doris

Bubba

Jun 3, 2004, 2:10 PM

Post #5 of 39 (1563 views)

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Re: [Jerseycoa] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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Please, stop!!! Go Away!!!

Maybe that border fence isn't high enough and the migration problem is in reverse.

Rolly

Jun 3, 2004, 2:17 PM

Post #6 of 39 (1560 views)

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Re: [NEOhio] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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There was a period a while back when things got very much out of hand on Mexconnect. After the board changed from free to pay-to-play, most of the trouble makers left town. Those of us who stayed have, for the most part, tried hard to avoid the hateful name calling, etc that had been going on.

I don't know why people give a different picture in their PMs. A spirited discussion and voicing of different views is most welcome so long as it doesn't get personal. It is also very helpful if the posts are factually correct.

I am one of the moderators. Sometimes, not often, I delete a post that I judge to have crossed the line. I make a point of sending a PM to the poster being deleted explaining why I zapped the post. I don't know if other moderators do that also.

If you see a post you disagree with, speak up; but don't get personal about it.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook

NEOhio

Jun 3, 2004, 2:18 PM

Post #7 of 39 (1557 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

Bubba - This appears to belong under my post today regarding the "Boomer Bubble" I am surprised you overlooked it.

I'd like to know why you seem particularly ungracious lately - although always somewhat snide your posts are helpful but lately you seem particularly predisposed to mean-spirited - referring to this post and your most recent don'tcomehere.com.

I would appreciate your thoughts - again - on this matter and any other with which youchoose to hold forth.

Jerseycoa

Jun 3, 2004, 2:45 PM

Post #8 of 39 (1550 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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In Reply To

Please, stop!!! Go Away!!! Maybe that border fence isn't high enough and the migration problem is in reverse.

Nice to meet you, too.
Doris

Jerseycoa

Jun 3, 2004, 2:47 PM

Post #9 of 39 (1550 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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Thanks, Rolly. I've visited your website a few times and enjoyed it so much.
Doris

wendy devlin

Jun 3, 2004, 4:05 PM

Post #10 of 39 (1526 views)

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Re: [NEOhio] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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Dear NEOhio,

Welcome to the world of internet forums!

It seems to me from what I have read of your postings that you have sussed out the way of these worlds in short time...and for that I applaud you.

But now that the applause has died down...(stop clapping you all!)

In short, let me say that in my eight years of experience on this forum and numerous others, it seems necessary to grow a rather tough skin...in order to face the 'slings and arrows' that are slung around the internet.
The purpose of which MAY be:

Part 1)
deter the faint-hearted...which in part may be their purpose...because in my experience, it does seem to take a modicum of 'true grit' to travel to Mexico, not to mention live there and ...

Part 2)
I refuse to believe that some of the people who participate on these internet forums COULDN'T POSSIBLE BE how they portray themselves to be through their postings.

Having said that, I review each case on an individual basis... usually involving meeting the person up-close and personal before I reach any conclusion.

Having said that, why are there so many cantakarous, belittling, disrespectful gringo sods in Mexico???????

Ja! ja! I mean that as a joke, people. Wendy

PBGollaz

Jun 3, 2004, 4:40 PM

Post #11 of 39 (1512 views)

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Re: [NEOhio] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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Some of us occasionally allow our emotional involvement in a subject to take over the rational decision-making process and, realizing that, prefer not to expose our personal opinions to everyone on every subject. Some hold strong views which, by experience, have been shown to act as "red flags" to others who frequent these forums and prefer not to initiate a "flame war" by posting them openly. Still others are just naturally cantankerous (to put it politely). A few of us are merely shy.

In the best of all possible worlds (to quote Voltaire's Candide), all of us would be free to post our comments publicly and each reader could choose to read or not to read any of them. However, as was pointed out elsewhere, we pay for the privilege of viewing these posts, and the owners/moderators undoubtedly have both personal and economic motives for protecting their investment by establishing levels of acceptable and unacceptable responses.

As individuals, we can accept their reasoning, or we can go to another location to get our information, or we can post "flames" until our posts are deleted or we are banned from the forums. Still another alternative (which seems to have been adopted by a goodly number of folks) is to send private responses. Any or all of the reasons above (or others not mentioned) may lead folks to post private responses.

Patrick
Zapopan, Jalisco, México

Bubba

Jun 3, 2004, 5:44 PM

Post #12 of 39 (1500 views)

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Re: [NEOhio] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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Ken:

I do not submit unfriendly private posts, ever, so I presume that you are not referring to me in that regard. In fact, I do not submit private posts period unless requested to so do. Have I seemed cantankerous lately? Maybe I am getting old and moody. For some reason, wordy and meandering posts from norteanos have begun to irritate me and have made me desire to see a large, impenetrable fence built between here and the U.S. with special crossing dispensation provided only the Burger King Corporation so I can still have my Cheese Whopper with extra mayo and onions. OK, so I will also let in Krispy Kreme. Maybe Johnny Walker Scotch Whisky. But that's it.

Boomer Bubble Bubba

sfmacaws

Jun 3, 2004, 6:50 PM

Post #13 of 39 (1482 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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I think it was astute of you to recognize so quickly the artificial nicey-nice tone that is imposed on this forum. I too remember the old forum and while it got bloody at times, it was real and didn't have this weird swiss cheese continuity.

There are a LOT of posts deleted and, unlike Rolly and a few other moderators, most of them disappear anonymously and with no explanation. They are not all flames or personal attacks either. I've had some "disappeared" that were simply critical of some aspect of Mexican life or culture.

After having a few innocuous posts deleted, most people start censoring themselves or replying by private message and the flow of conversation gets stilted. Plus, when you are reading along and things don't quite connect, it's usually because there are posts missing in the middle. It's irritating and more like grade school than a forum primarily for adults.

This is the main reason that I am considering not renewing my subscription. It's a shame as I do enjoy the give and take and there are some fantastic people on this board and lots of excellent information. But, I'm long past grade school and don't like this feeling that Mother Superior is looking over my shoulder when I write.

Perhaps if this kind of civilized discourse on the problems we feel are important on this board continues, things might change. On the other hand, maybe all these posts will just disappear? Sort of like news in the old USSR, you learned as much from the pieces missing as those included.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Kip

Jun 3, 2004, 7:45 PM

Post #14 of 39 (1454 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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I think , Ole kid, that you've nailed it exactly. Why take the time to write if it's going to disappear into cyberspace. Much too frustrating.

Kip
kip

Marlene

Jun 4, 2004, 7:20 AM

Post #15 of 39 (1387 views)

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Private Messages and Deletes

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Quote

Why take the time to write if it's going to disappear into cyberspace. Much too frustrating.

Unfortunately not everyone writes posts in keeping with the spirit and intent of Mexconnect forum mandate. Moderators have a committment to keep things on track as best they can so this forum can continue to be a great source of information about Mexico.

As far as letting someone know that a post has been deleted, this doesn't always accomplish anything when addressing the type of individual that tends to make deemed indiscreet, insensitive or otherwise out of line posts. (I speak from my limited deleting experience where I quickly learned this.)

With regard to receiving private messages instead of the replying poster responding back to the group, I find this rather curious. I would perhaps wonder why that individual would not post valid information for the group to see, relate to, and perhaps expound on the experience,(and more importantly, benefit from) rather than choose to advise you privately.

I enjoyed this forum for a long time before moving to Mexico and I hope to enjoy it for a long time to come.

esperanza

Jun 4, 2004, 7:47 AM

Post #16 of 39 (1378 views)

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Re: [Marlene] Private Messages and Deletes

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I think Jonna was correct when she mentioned in her last post, "I've had some "disappeared" that were simply critical of some aspect of Mexican life or culture."

There are many times that not-so-positive posts disappear on these forums. In the rules and regulations regarding posting here, this is number one:

1. The Mexico Connect forums are founded to allow free exchange of ideas and opinions on cultural, social, travel, living, and economic issues, so as to promote understanding, interest and exchange of experiences and information about Mexico.

This is number six:

6. Posting to the forum is a privilege (not a right), which you can earn and maintain through your intellectual and compassionate contribution. While removal of postings is kept to a minimum, irrelevant and substandard posts may be removed to maintain the high quality of the forums. Harrassment, abuse, threats, obscenity, spams, commercial advertisements and other objectionable content are rejected. Repeated offenses may result in the loss of posting privileges.

The idea that the free exchange of ideas and opinions about Mexico is truncated by an arbiter's desire to limit opinion that may be perceived to be less than positive is contrary to the production of honest interchange. The thought that an individual moderator may unilaterally decide that one post--which meets the criteria stated in the guidelines--needs to be deleted borders on censorship rather than moderating. Many, many posts which are private conversations between parties and have limited value to the world at large are allowed to remain. Other posts, some of which present, as I mentioned above, a less-than-positive notion of life in Mexico, are removed.

I find that the content here on MexConnect is becoming less and less relevant to the world's curiosity about what Mexico might offer it and more and more confined to repetition and the banal.

As a moderator, I experience some difficulty when my own posts vanish without consultation or discussion. What other moderator sets him or herself above another? We are all volunteers here. Attempting to maintain order without censorship, attempting to be reasonable and fair: attempting to live up to the full set of guidelines set down by the owner of the site: those, it seems to me, are the goals of a moderator. If others think otherwise, perhaps it is time for them to step down.

In my opinion, private messages are sent as a way to circumvent the censorship that is entirely too prevalent on these forums.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

pathall

Jun 4, 2004, 8:09 AM

Post #17 of 39 (1361 views)

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Re: [NEOhio] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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You know, I am entirely happy with the way that the MC forum goes. Maybe I'm being naive, but I like it the way it is. I have been participating in MC for some years now and the only time I get upset is when some posters get angry over the smallest, trivial things and lash out at others for (what seems to me) no reason at all. I'm here to share information, find out the best routes to travel, the best things to do and see, where the best places are, and maybe share an opinion or two. But to get incensed at someone you don't even know, for reasons that are difficult to discern, seem to me to be against all the goals of MC.

Rolly

Jun 4, 2004, 8:14 AM

Post #18 of 39 (1360 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Private Messages and Deletes

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Esperanza, I agree whole-heartedly!!! There are a few (maybe only one) moderators who impose their own personal views on the rest of us by their over zealous use of the delete button. We, as moderators, are not here to be the thought police.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook

sandykayak

Jun 4, 2004, 8:16 AM

Post #19 of 39 (1357 views)

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Re: [Kip] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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I've been trying to keep quiet but there has been a lot of truth said here. I didn't realize it was a privilege to post here...I thought we paid our money and we were allowed to post.

esperanza said: <<Other posts, some of which present, as I mentioned above, a less-than-positive notion of life in Mexico, are removed. >> This is something many have learned the hard way, so realize that you are going to get the rose-colored glasses version here. Of course, there are negatives (as there are in any place), but you'd better look elsewhere for that sort of information...unless it's about the creepy crawlies...hey, there was even an open discussion on the increase in crime.

Lastly, bubba is.....well...bubba...and if he can't have fun pulling someone's chain/stirring the pot/making us laugh..well, he aint' had his day.
Sandy Kramer
Miami, Fla & El Parque

lkarelee

Jun 4, 2004, 8:17 AM

Post #20 of 39 (1353 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Private Messages and Deletes

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I belong to another forum that was set up just for women to discuss issues related to relocating to Mexico. On several ocassional, the issue of how restricted this board is has come up especially with regard to two issues - Gays and the Mexican culture. No one, under any circumstances, is allowed to write anything negative about either of these issues. There is also a general concensus on the other forum that if your toe goes over this imaginary line, it will be chopped off and you will be subjected to a verbal lashing (which I personally have experienced for daring to mention that there were 2 classes of americans in mexico - 1st and 2nd class). I have also seen countless other examples of people making innocent sounding comments only to be assailed by the most vicious replies from some of the 'oldies'. Jez people, last time I looked at my drivers license, I was well over 50 and I'm paid up on my annual MexConnect dues - so baring any racial slurs, pornographic references, or terroristic threats, I think we should be able to bring up any topic we think is relevant to moving and living in Mexico. Personally, I'd like to see something besides the weather, FM3 forms, and car insurance discussed. Let's open it up - who knows, maybe we'll actually share something of value.

PBGollaz

Jun 4, 2004, 8:22 AM

Post #21 of 39 (1350 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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I'm sorry to hear that your experiences with on-line censorship have led you to consider not renewing your subscription. Each voice lost to the forum is a potential loss to everyone.

You did make a statement, however, that I think is a telling one for others among us who also abhor censorship. You said, "I've had some [posts] "disappeared" that were simply critical of some aspect of Mexican life or culture." Many of us come from countries where our right to be critical of any aspect of public or private life is protected by law, and we take that right very seriously. However, it is not a right that we enjoy here in Mexico. In fact -- at least with regard to the acts or failures of Mexican government -- it is one that is prohibited to us by law. Violating the terms of our visas by breaking that prohibition/law, albeit in a minor fashion, subjects us to being deported as "undesirables."

Yes, I know that the law actually refers to getting involved in Mexican politics or demonstrations -– certainly a definite no-no for foreigners in Mexico. However, please consider carefully that the Mexican government is free to interpret in its own way what level of "involvement" is necessary to call in the Migra (or whatever other action it considers to be warranted). You can determine for yourself the various interpretations of the Mexican government by reviewing a number of news stories regarding the deportation of foreign nationals. Surely, it may make some of us from other countries angry to read such things -- but it's the reality in which we're now living. We just have to do as Marion Berry told us to do a few years ago, after he was re-elected Mayor of Washington, DC following his release from prison: "Get over it!"

Accordingly, the wise webmaster/administrator will err on the side of caution in allowing or deleting messages that can be considered critical. There are certainly indications that MexConnect does that. "Slightly critical" is still "critical." You may argue that your posts don't fall into that category -- and you may be right. However, if you leave us you will have lost the opportunity to continue defending your views, or even forwarding them via private posts.

Patrick
Zapopan, Jalisco, México

bournemouth

Jun 4, 2004, 8:54 AM

Post #22 of 39 (1336 views)

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Re: [Patricio B] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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Well said Patricio - I think the point about how "criticism", however slight, may be interpreted by nationals of Mexico is often overlooked. To have a board where everything can be posted, would probably mean that the board would have to be based somewhere other than Mexico - then it may not be much of a board.

Some of the posters of long standing who are rather "crusty" may well be why there are many private replies. Not everyone wants to have their chain pulled.

Esteban

Jun 4, 2004, 9:27 AM

Post #23 of 39 (1318 views)

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Re: [Patricio B] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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Patricio is exactly right. We all know the internet is a fairly new method of communicating and eventually, there will be precedent set in Mexican court that will determine whether there are violations of the laws. Many of the moderators or owners, live in Mexico and could be liable. In fact, in Mazatlan there are charges that have been filed in regards to this point. This is no joke. I am not at liberty to give you all the details but it is happening as we speak.

gbatrucks

Jun 4, 2004, 9:35 AM

Post #24 of 39 (1307 views)

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Re: [Patricio B] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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As some Central European philosopher said during the cold war, “It is not the Minister of Culture we have to fear, it is the Culture of the Minister.” I too have had posts disappear with no explanation. Never having been accused of being politically correct, I understand that some of my posts may be seen as less than complimentary, but mean-spirited? I think not. Rolly, you’ve got the right idea. We should be informed as to why our posts are deleted. How else can we understand what “rule” we have violated? We can than decide if we want to continue to “pay to play.” Aww..who am I kidding? As long as Bubba continues to entertain me with his rapier-quick wit, slicing and dicing the PC touchy-feely folks, I will continue to participate. Would that I could wax as eloquently as he!

Trucks
"The trouble with life is there's no background music."

sandykayak

Jun 4, 2004, 9:48 AM

Post #25 of 39 (1296 views)

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Re: [gbatrucks] Phenomena of private posts - Newbies

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Perhaps David will appreciate how people are offended when their posts are zapped and "ask" the moderators to send a PM to the zappees explaining why they were censured??

I'd also like to point out that on several occasions when I could have sworn that I clicked on "Send PM" my note went to the whole world and I was "saved by the moderator" who deleted it for me. I then thanked them via PM.

Could someone post (again!) how we can edit our posts. How long do we have?
Sandy Kramer
Miami, Fla & El Parque

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