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richmx2

Sep 21, 2011, 3:25 PM

Post #1 of 22 (1236 views)

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Name your poison?

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From the generally snarky, but hardly math-challenged Burro Hall:

Mexico suffered 15,000 drug war deaths last year and 17,000 traffic deaths, while in the US the numbers were 38,000 drug deaths vs. 36,000 traffic deaths. Most striking to us, however was that in the US, whose population is 2.7 times that of Mexico, drug deaths numbered a bit over 2.5 times the number of drug war deaths in its southern neighbor.

Or, to put it another way, while the two countries are on opposite ends of the problem - an insatiable demand in the north, a bloody war to stanch the supply in the south - the drug-related death rate in the two countries is practically the same. When it comes to drugs, the US is as much a killing field as Mexico. Sure, the deaths on the Mexican side tend to be a little more...theatrical, but that's probably just a Latino thing.

Full post here.

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http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

sparks

Sep 21, 2011, 3:36 PM

Post #2 of 22 (1221 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Name your poison?

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Do onto yourself as you would do to others?

Sparks Mexico - Sparks Costalegre

tonyburton

Sep 21, 2011, 3:41 PM

Post #3 of 22 (1210 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Name your poison?

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Sadly, I do not believe that is a like-for-like comparison. The "drugs war" deaths in Mexico is deaths due to violence related to drugs, and not for all deaths related to drugs (which, eg, would include overdoses, etc). To the best of my knowledge, the US figure quoted is for "all deaths related to drugs".

Altahabana

Sep 21, 2011, 4:51 PM

Post #4 of 22 (1187 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] Name your poison?

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A few more days though like yesterday in Veracruz and even Rich's skewed stats will start to even out. Just when you think one event can't be topped, a group pulls off something like yesterday. I suspect though there won't be too many tears shed over this incident because of the victims.

richmx2

Sep 21, 2011, 5:10 PM

Post #5 of 22 (1176 views)

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Re: [Altahabana] Name your poison?

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Not my"skewed statistics" but someone else's. Even so, I don't see 35 deaths one way or another as changing the rates in any significant way.

There´s probably no way to get the figures overall, but if you included all narcotics related deaths and "occupational injuries" here and in the United States (somehow I don´t think marijuana farmers here are paying out for one the job injuries to pickers and packers, nor is the U.S. considering things like spousal abuse related to narcotics use as a ¨drug related injury), these kinds of stats would be even more skewed. But, I´d let someone else figure out how to skew them.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

YucaLandia

Sep 21, 2011, 5:23 PM

Post #6 of 22 (1172 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Name your poison?

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For background's sake, Frank (of Burro Hall) is a long time news producer for one of the USA's biggest news programs, and he is a stickler for both facts and accurate reporting. Frank can also be simultaneously funny and acerbic, so, Burro Hall is his outlet for pointed humor, that's underpinned with facts. Think: The Emperor's New Clothes.

I realize that some people on Mexconnect want to believe that living in Mexico is far more dangerous than living in the USA, but the statistics say differently (See the US Government, CDC, DOT, & AMA statistics reported in http://www.mexconnect.com/...search_engine#168770.) Setting aside the US press and US Government's near-obsession with Drug Wars and Mexico-bashing, I think some readers' misperceptions and denials of facts may also come from demographics. We are products of where we live and where we have lived.

I would bet that most Mexconnect readers (as tourists or travelers with enough income and interest to travel internationally), did not grow up in rough neighborhoods in Detroit, Washington D.C., LA, Philly, or New Orleans. If you grew up and went to school in fairly placid areas, then you likely believe that the US is generally a safe place.

If you grew up in Watts, or Harlem, around Lee Circle, K-Street, or some of Chicago's or Boston's neighborhoods, then gunfire and violence played a more present and prominent role in your life (think of the jokes about the L and de Mau Mau of the 1970's). If you don't believe that there are very dangerous neighborhoods and dangerous cities in the USA and that the overall national murder rates are comparable, do a quick google search of "bad neighborhoods in ..._____" inserting the name of your favorite large US city.

I am not saying that Mexico is universally safe, or that ex-pats should not be taking reasonable precautions. Just last week we had a long discussion with 2 young professionals from Monterrey, where her mom has decided she must move the family out of the city she loves. Since the violence has gotten intense on Mexico's Drug War fronts, Yucatan has been getting tens of thousands of refugees from other parts of Mexico, escaping the violence. For me, this has strange echoes of white flight from D.C in the 1960's, white flight from the South Side of Chicago in the 1970's, etc, etc, etc.

Unfortunately, in the Burro Hall report, yet another reliable professional (newsman) is reporting that life can be similarly dangerous both North and South of the Border. I personally am glad that Yucatan has been spared from the violence so far, but I also realize that with all the product that is rumored to move through our port of Progreso, the Yucatan police cleaned out a weapons cache that included 50 cal machine guns and an RPG just 2 blocks from our house, so, we too could become yet another casualty in the Drug War if the cartels decide to fight over our little piece of the pie.

There is no joy in Mudville.
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.wordpress.com/

Bennie García

Sep 22, 2011, 5:56 AM

Post #7 of 22 (1071 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Name your poison?

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In Reply To

Not my"skewed statistics" but someone else's. Even so, I don't see 35 deaths one way or another as changing the rates in any significant way.

35 deaths? Come on Rich, if you want to be taken seriously you need to be more objective. That was one incident out of how many similar incidents that took place in this big country yesterday?

We received the news yesterday that a friend of our son is missing. He, along with a coworker, were chased by unknown men and shot at. At one point abandoning their vehicle and fleeing on foot. The coworker stumbled upon a police vehicle and escaped. Our friend is missing. Hopefully he is hiding in the mountains near where he worked, afraid to seek help in any of the nearby pueblos. These are two young engineers that have absolutely nothing to do with criminal activity.

So right there add another victim.

don pedro

Sep 22, 2011, 7:46 AM

Post #8 of 22 (1038 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Name your poison?

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the narcos have been whacking each other in cancun,etc. for quite some time and you would know this if you read borderland beat and blog del narco. ostrich anyone?

http://chapalamexicoinfo.createforumhosting.com

dongringo_catemaco

Sep 22, 2011, 10:30 AM

Post #9 of 22 (991 views)

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Hey Rolly! Grabman is now an editor? What was so objectionable about our exchange to be deleted?
Visit Catemaco News

salto_jorge

Sep 22, 2011, 12:29 PM

Post #10 of 22 (958 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Name your poison?

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Deaths cannot be overlooked and compared in the same fashion as a war between two opposing forces. In the case of drugs one is dealing with the political structure of governments, the population’s moral beliefs combined with wealth, poverty and a multitude of underemployed or unemployed people with nothing to do. Producers and consumers will always exist for all products, which one a population happens to be at one time can always always change.

One cannot simply compare deaths, if the media and blogs are correct the Mexican Government under reports deaths. The US government does not have the same control of the media or special interests and deaths are typically reported as are missing person reports. Drug related deaths inside or outside of prisons exist everywhere.

In the US and Mexico many forms of drug related deaths take place, and the Latino community is not isolated from these causes.

· Drug payments not made

· Drug deals gone bad

· Robberies for purchases of drugs

· Difficulties involving the growing/manufacture and distribution of product

· Control of the Plaza ( In USA and Mexico routes, cities, communities, pay-offs )

· Overdose

· Suicides

· Spouse abuse and child abuse

· Gang/Cartel fights (guns now, used to be bats and chains)

· Collateral damage

During my formative years in NYC and later in my life in both the USA and Mexico I have been told about and encountered many of the items in the above list.

I have noticed in Mexico that many in the country do not know or care what their relatives or neighbors do for a living. Many consider asking those kinds of questions a personal violation of another person’s privacy. Are so many folks involved in what we in the US consider to be illegal activities that it is best not to know. One must also consider that in the US we a trained from an early age in school that we are expected to work although we as children may know and see many adults doing nothing most of the time. So here in the US we live our lives to work and make a buck, south of the US many folks look for work when they have a need and cannot borrow things from their family or compadre.

(This post was edited by salto_jorge on Sep 22, 2011, 12:37 PM)

cbviajero

Sep 22, 2011, 1:01 PM

Post #11 of 22 (942 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Name your poison?

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We can argue statistics all day about where it's safer but what strikes me is the beyond the pale nature of the narco violence and the failure of law enforcement,I understand mob hits,ajustes de cuentas and whatnot but dumping 35 bodies on the boulevard in broad day light,theCasino Royale,hundreds of massacred immigrants on a farm near the border,a dozen or so federal agents tortured and murdered and left on the side of the road in Michoacan,heads left in OXXO ice chests on the road to Chapala,bodies hanging from overpasses,etc,etc ad nauseam.What the hell is going on here,it ain't the same Mexico I started visiting 40 years ago,it doesn't seem to make good business sense but who knows,maybe it's that Aztec bloodlust combined with lots of cheap cocaine,tequila and weaponry.
Chris

YucaLandia

Sep 22, 2011, 3:42 PM

Post #12 of 22 (904 views)

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Re: [don pedro] Name your poison?

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the narcos have been whacking each other in cancun,etc. for quite some time and you would know this if you read borderland beat and blog del narco. ostrich anyone?

Good point.

Fortunately, Yucatan is not Cancun.

Do you think that New Orleans is in Georgia. and that New Orleans' problems are Georgia's problems?

Cancun and Quintana Roo are different states, different cultures, very different politics, incredibly different levels of corruption, different levels of policing, etc than Yucatan. My personal comments were about current conditions in Yucatan. Not Cancun, PDC, not Quintana Roo.
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.wordpress.com/

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Sep 22, 2011, 4:03 PM)

La Isla

Sep 22, 2011, 3:49 PM

Post #13 of 22 (896 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Name your poison?

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In Reply To

the narcos have been whacking each other in cancun,etc. for quite some time and you would know this if you read borderland beat and blog del narco. ostrich anyone?

Good point.

Cancun is not Yucatan.

Cancun is not located in the state of Yucatan, but it is located on the northeast coast of the Yucatan Peninsula.

(This post was edited by La Isla on Sep 22, 2011, 3:51 PM)

Bennie García

Sep 22, 2011, 4:01 PM

Post #14 of 22 (886 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Name your poison?

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[reply

Cancun is not Yucatan.

Completely lame.

don pedro

Sep 22, 2011, 4:12 PM

Post #15 of 22 (880 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Name your poison?

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In Reply To

the narcos have been whacking each other in cancun,etc. for quite some time and you would know this if you read borderland beat and blog del narco. ostrich anyone?

Good point.

Cancun is not Yucatan.

Do you think that New Orleans is in Georgia. and that New Orleans' problems are Georgia's problems?

They are different states, different cultures, very different politics, incredibly different levels of corruption, different levels of policing, etc.

dream on if you think that quintano roo and campeche have this crap and have left the state[YUCATAN] right between them alone-SNORK!
my name ain't mcduff although, i modestly say that i cook the worlds best haggis and look formidable in a kilt. take yer blinders off pal-SNORK! again.
oh! and one more thing-don't give me them excited states comparisons ta make any kinda point-phhhht! especially since i is a worldly canucklehead.
i did indeed say etc. which should cover that neck of the woods quite nicely.

http://chapalamexicoinfo.createforumhosting.com

YucaLandia

Sep 22, 2011, 4:32 PM

Post #16 of 22 (869 views)

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Re: [don pedro] Name your poison?

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don pedro,
I do love a guy with a sense of humor!
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.wordpress.com/

whynotwrite

Sep 22, 2011, 4:42 PM

Post #17 of 22 (861 views)

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Re: [don pedro] Name your poison?

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reading those to sites will make you go cross eyed and grow hair on your knuckles

Reefhound

Sep 22, 2011, 5:13 PM

Post #18 of 22 (851 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Name your poison?

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In Reply To

I would bet that most Mexconnect readers (as tourists or travelers with enough income and interest to travel internationally), did not grow up in rough neighborhoods in Detroit, Washington D.C., LA, Philly, or New Orleans. If you grew up and went to school in fairly placid areas, then you likely believe that the US is generally a safe place.
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I don't think anyone could deny that there are ghetto urban areas in the U.S. where the risk of crime and violence isn't every bit as high as anywhere in Mexico. And there are certainly areas in Mexico that have been relatively spared from such violence. But there are two differences that I see that account for the differences in perceptions.

One, the violence in the ghettos is more for business than pleasure. They want your money or your car. Or you didn't pay up on a debt. If they want you dead they put a bullet in your head and are done with it. They haven't taken it to an artistic level of creating new twisted ways to torture and kill. They aren't beheading victims by the dozen and lining the heads up along the road or hanging bodies from bridges in DC or Detroit. And when the cops come the thugs flee, not counterattack with overwhelming force.

Two, and perhaps more important, the good and bad areas are stable in the U.S. Yes, Harlem and Watts are dangerous neighborhoods, as they have been for decades and will likely continue to be. Stay in Beverly Hills and you're pretty safe from the Watts thugs. Mexico is unstable. Monterrey was considered safe three years ago. As you even noted, the safe and peaceful Yucatan could erupt into violence overnight if the cartels wanted it that way and there's not a darned thing the police could do to stop it. Mexican police departments, heck even Mexican military brigades, are impotent to impose peace and security in any given area. Places in Mexico are safe because the cartels have simply not chosen to make them otherwise.

cbviajero

Sep 22, 2011, 5:49 PM

Post #19 of 22 (832 views)

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Re: [don pedro] Name your poison?

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I've had haggis where they invented it,I'd rather have day old tacos de sesos,but I'm sure you do look cute in a kilt.
Chris

chinagringo

Sep 22, 2011, 7:19 PM

Post #20 of 22 (804 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Name your poison?

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Whenever someone uses comparisons, rationalizations, or justifications between Mexico and whatever country or city of choice, it becomes all about their tiny little world and has about as much meaning as a "zit" on the butt of an elephant! We all know that personal or anecdotal evidence or statistics can be presented but the lines are often blurred in that respect too. It is a great big world out there and in reviewing "the big picture", our thoughts and opinions often mean very little!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

Ustlach

Sep 23, 2011, 1:53 PM

Post #21 of 22 (699 views)

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Am I the only one reading this thread who is less concerned about the drug death statistics and more so about the traffic death statistics?

I can avoid the drug world here and in the USA almost completely. But I can't avoid the deadly and dangerous streets, sidewalks, roads, and highways in Mexico. Those in the USA are in the USA, and I am not, 99% of the time.

There are a helluva lot more cars per capita in the USA, so why this huge number of traffic deaths in Mexico?

Driving or even riding on the roads in Mexico scares the crap out of me every time I have to do it. The drug problems, at least for me, here where I am, are of almost no concern.

I suspect the answers to all our questions and concerns about life in Mexico lie hidden in the enigma that is Mexico. People have been trying to figure it out for hundreds of years, and, to date, I have yet to hear/read any satisfying explanation.

chinagringo

Sep 23, 2011, 2:07 PM

Post #22 of 22 (693 views)

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Re: [Ustlach] Name your poison?

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I, for one, don't see the firsthand evidence of excessive traffic deaths in Mexico. We just completed a 1888 mile loop/drive from Guadalajara/Lake Chapala to Michoacan to Guanajuato and the returned to the Guadalajara area over 17 days. On the entire trip, we only saw ONE accident on the cuota between Guadalajara and Morelia. When we do our normal r/t drives from NM to Central Mexico generally covering 3000 to 4000 miles - we typically only see three to five accidents. Personally, I think that Mexican drivers are damned good at defensive driving! We all just don't realize that Mexican Driving Laws are merely suggestions!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM