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Karin

Jun 12, 2004, 1:10 PM

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Mexican civil law

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What legal ways provides the Mexican law to force someone to pay his debts?
In my case it is the refund of a deposit out of a renting agreement of an apartment.

TomG

Jun 12, 2004, 3:30 PM

Post #2 of 18 (926 views)

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Re: [Karin] Mexican civil law

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I have heard that this is a common occurance.

Bubba

Jun 12, 2004, 5:48 PM

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Re: [Karin] Mexican civil law

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Eat the loss and move on.

Uncle Jack

Jun 12, 2004, 5:58 PM

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Re: [Karin] Mexican civil law

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Karin;

If you rented through a legitimate rental agency it is very common for them to keep the deposit for 60 days as it sometimes takes that long for all the bills to come in (LD telephone, etc.).

If you rented directly from the owner.....well, read Bubba's post just above.

uj

(This post was edited by Uncle Jack on Jun 12, 2004, 6:25 PM)

TomG

Jun 12, 2004, 7:08 PM

Post #5 of 18 (886 views)

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Re: [Karin] Mexican civil law

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But, guys, the property owner is depending on her to move on easy and safe herself the bother. They just known it ain't worth it to gringos to hastle themselves, and they know tougher in a foreign language.

This is going to get to be a worse disease than it already is as more and more just throw their hands up.

Ah ha! I remember. A Mexican friend told me this: Assuming Karin is living somewhere that has a tourists economy, she should go to the tourist office and report him/her. It is bad for business (the tourists business) in the broad sense - that is if the word spreads. They are afraid of that. Now the word will never spread on Mexconnect because the authorities will never permit it due to the Catch-22 slander law. But the Mexican pols and bigshots do have the fear that gringos communicate and word spreads.

If they can't rent to gringos at outrageous prices and have the gringos fix the place up for them because the gringos don't like to live with screwy problems, they will have to rent to guess who? at guess what prices? who will do guess what to there property? Their greatest fear dances in the shadows. If gringos actually did communicate - things would start improving.

Karin hasn't said whether she can afford to blow off the deposit amount and be comfortable. Nor has she said if she could afford it, whether her spirit would be damaged by the knowledge that she allowed herself to be walked upon when she was acting in good faith. This is a bad habit to get into. Sometimes you have to do difficult things because of what it will do to you if you don't. It is also not good to contribute to the perception that gringos are foolish.

Marlene

Jun 12, 2004, 9:54 PM

Post #6 of 18 (872 views)

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Re: [Karin] Mexican civil law

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Karin, Speak to the folks at your nearest PROFECO office here in Mexico.

gpk

Jun 13, 2004, 2:55 PM

Post #7 of 18 (800 views)

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Re: [Karin] Mexican civil law

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I sort of hate to recommend blackmail, but inform the landlord you are going to report him/her to hacienda (the Mexican IRS). Virtually NO ONE in Mexico reports rental income, especially if paid in cash, so you might get your deposit back if the landlord is afraid of being turned in. Also, as is mentioned below, many utitlity bills take a while to come in. Electric is usually billed every two months, and Telmex is at least a month behind on all long distance charges.

Karin

Jun 17, 2004, 6:21 PM

Post #8 of 18 (726 views)

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Re: [gpk] Mexican civil law

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It is not primarily the deposit amount of 1000 USD I am worrying about. I am preferring spending the money to pay lawyer than just to swallow the loss and move on.

I rented the apartment in DF directly from the owner. The "grace period" for utility bills is long over.

I will try to communicate with todays renter and will warn him.

PROFECO does not handle rental contracts.
They recommend to approach "Defensoria de Oficio".

Does anybody have experience with this organization?

Marlene

Jun 17, 2004, 10:13 PM

Post #9 of 18 (703 views)

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Re: [Karin] Mexican civil law

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Has the landlord communicated a reason to you regards him not returning the deposit? I believe there are laws as to the time limit of returning the deposit. It sounds as if he is just ignoring you and not giving you a reason. Is that a correct assumption?

Karin

Jun 18, 2004, 6:14 AM

Post #10 of 18 (683 views)

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Re: [Marlene] Mexican civil law

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Yes, this assumption is correct.

alex .

Jun 18, 2004, 7:23 AM

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Re: [Karin] truth, justice, and the Mexican way

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Hoooboy, this is a tough one, viewed from the outside looking in. All of the contributors here that speak of "doing the right thing" and "hey fair is fair" have very good, valid points. I admire the sense of justice and fair play. The rub is: you are a foreign person in a foreign land. The playbook is different. Imagine this scenario: You tell the landlord that you are going to report the injustice to various agencies, anticipating that you will strike fear into his heart. Next day , a police car shows up at your door , a couple of officers would like you to come with them to the local police station to discuss an anonymous charge of child molestation. Now you got problems. You see, in the interest of persuing whats right, we forget that the other guy can play dirty. I'm not saying that it will unfold exactly this way, I'm suggesting that Bubba's advice has hidden wisdom in it.
Alex

(This post was edited by alex . on Jun 18, 2004, 7:28 AM)

TomG

Jun 20, 2004, 10:54 AM

Post #12 of 18 (576 views)

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Re: [alex .] truth, justice, and the Mexican way

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Alex, this is not way meant to be a correction of your apt advice. I retract what I said earlier in favor of your response. Nor are you responsible in any way for the content of my response.

Now here is an area where Mexican politicians could work to "establish legal mechanisms to permit safe, orderly flows of people that also respect the dignity and human rights of all migrants" (quote taken from Fox speech given recently in Chicago regarding Mexican immigrants rights in the USA). I am interpreting the word "flow" in a broad sense beyond the border crossing moment to ongoing life in the host country (as Mexico itself has always done when speaking of its citizens living in the USA).

To boil it all out, what I am getting at here is: that Mexicans living in the USA should have the right to fair play; and conversely, Americans living in Mexico should expect that same right to fair play. "Screw the gringo" isn't good policy. Given the political will, "legal mechanisms could be established" (and observed) to permit safe living for the citizens of all North Americans in the 3 NAFTA countries to permit safe dignified lives when living in any of the host NAFTA countries as guests. There really isn't a reasonable explanation for why not....that I can readily imagine. Everything else requires too much cultural understanding. These days more effort is put into hiding behind thinly held culture, and not enough discipline is applied to building and maintaining a healthy culture. Culture with a big "C" is not a big mother's breast to feed an infantalized population hopelessness, although culture with a small "c" can become that. Culture is a damned poor excuse for corrupt doings - it indicates that corruption is the culture. Disciplined leaders should be remarkably vigilant in protecting and guarding their cultures from corrupt deterioration. That applies on both sides of the border. We could all start looking like the Middle East: masking chaotic barbarism with duplicitous cultural verbiage.

talosian

Jun 20, 2004, 4:40 PM

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Re: [TomG] truth, justice, and the Mexican way

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TomG raised what may be a problem for many expats there or anywhere in the World.

Most people don't like to feel they let themselves be screwed over and walked on when they were fair. It's in the nature of most people and in fact is one of the (minor) reasons I'm leaving the dishonesty I find in So. California. But at least here, I can go to the courts or the police, seems it isn't the same thing in Mexico.

And yes, I have seen here where the "best defense if a good offense." Make noise and the bad-guy will point a finger at you and tell his/her friend in the Policia you did a bad thing.

We (I know I do) want to get to know the Mexican people and not live in an Expat Ghetto isolated from the people. I also don't want to give some merchant a 100 Peso for a 10 peso item note or $500 deposit and then be given no change and told I have a 10 peso coin or just be ignored on returning the deposit, etc. I always thought if things were in writing they you could be pretty sure of getting a fair shake sooner or later. Not in Mexico???

Just thoughts. I'm committed to coming there since I'm burning my bridge here (selling the house) and paid some decent pesos for a casa there.

The adventure begins on July 1, 2004 at a toll booth near me.

Spock.
"When all logical explanations have failed, we must look to the illogical for the answer.

Marlene

Jun 20, 2004, 5:15 PM

Post #14 of 18 (530 views)

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Re: [talosian] truth, justice, and the Mexican way

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Quote

I always thought if things were in writing they you could be pretty sure of getting a fair shake sooner or later. Not in Mexico???

It's called cultural differences and if you aren't somewhat flexible to solving situations in a different way than you are used to in your home country, you simply won't make it in Mexico.

My personal experiences here in Mazatlán have showed me that this is not necessarily a "put things into writing" culture. I personally have found the spoken word to be stronger than la pluma in many instances. It certainly simplifies my life and is one of the reasons I like living here so much.

johnv

Jun 20, 2004, 5:29 PM

Post #15 of 18 (525 views)

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Re: [Marlene] truth, justice, and the Mexican way

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The spoken word, in the case being discussed here, being the ongoing problem of Mexican landlords screwing Northamericans out of rent deposits, and them or others reporting people to the police on trumped up charges. Sounds like great culture, although, I havn't experienced either aspect of it yet.

TomG

Jun 20, 2004, 9:04 PM

Post #16 of 18 (494 views)

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Re: [Marlene] truth, justice, and the Mexican way

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A Mexican rental contract can be quite lengthy and remarkably devoid of reference to landlord responsibilities. I'd being willing to pay a bit of a premium to be on "word of mouth" rather than to not be carefully prepared for roasting by a contact in Mexico. Word of mouth has you damn near on an equal footing, minus your deposit. I wouldn’t pay 5 centavos on the peso for a basket of bulk rental deposit futures from Mexican rental contacts. One good way to see what they are actually worth would be to buy and bundle large lot and attempt to sell them on the Bolsa: see what the big shots think they are worth.

"Screw the gringo" is a cultural fragment that appears even in popular songs, and filters down to the most idyllic pueblos out behind nowhere. F1's little 5-year-old sister innocently whispered me a few bars one time in youthful trust. There is actually some patriotism attached to the concept; and those who treat a gringo fairly can, in certain circles, be called to task for being traitors (Malinche). In some souls these characteristics are so deep as to have metaphysical profundity. Don't get me wrong, it's not just gringos who can be screwed. But when the affected party is another Mexican a very different mental mechanism is employed. It can be worse in magnitude; but it is an entirely different class of action. All the meanings of this concept go far beyond what outsiders are ever capable of comprehending. One of Mexico's greatest writers wrote a whole book on just the meaning of this verb in Mexico. As R2 says, "You are too trusting, I know my people." M2 says the same thing. F1 said it before they did, then R1 tried to explain with helpful examples and demonstrations. C3 says, "Be careful."

On the other hand just dream about what a plague of baby boomer gringos would descend on Mexico if truthful articles were being written in major American and Canadian newspapers documenting the reliability of Mexican rental agreements. Then, waxing on with a litany of facts about the fairness of financial and legal treatments experienced by foreigners personally, in addition to observations foreigners made about the fairness of dealing that Mexicans conducted among themselves. Of course, people can and do write such things now, it is just that they are not broadly believed due to something more damaging than the Hollywood bad movie image: the constant trickle of returning tourists with one and two concrete tales of corruption and unfair experience. You can't stop it, it just keeps happening. All this is nothing compared to what illegal immigrants experience being plucked by their own handlers on there way out of Mexico. A reputation for bad dealings helps keep meek and mild folks from thinking Mexico is a good place to visit or live. Some would say that is all for the better.

There are meek people in Mexico, too. I have been close to some wonderful people in there, people I like to think I would go to the wall with. That is what makes me so mad! Who is so crass that they wouldn’t forge a legal system with enforcement that would protect them from harm? And why do I feel so dumb saying nice things about meek people?

I am amazed at how little trust Mexicans have living in Mexico; and in how devotedly they love Mexico. I would guard that idea more carefully if I didn’t think that the paradox was locked safely inside itself.

(This post was edited by TomG on Jun 20, 2004, 9:08 PM)

talosian

Jun 21, 2004, 11:05 AM

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Re: [TomG] truth, justice, and the Mexican way

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Sure seems like a losing situation and it frightens me a little since I just put some serious bucks into a house in the Chapala area. I'm not concerned with that transaction since the seller is a Canadian Expat and it's through Coldwe Banker. My concern is more about dealing with the Mexican people when it comes to business.

I had thoughts about opening a business there which I know would make good $$ but I would be looking for possibly a Mexican partner or at the least, have to deal with Mexican suppliers, etc.

So maybe this is why so many Expats get into and stay in their gettos and don't associate with the Mexican people. Personally I was hoping to build some Mexican friendships even though right now I don't speak Spanish. I would really prefer to believe that the horror stories are a very small percentage of the dealings between Expats and Mexicans. But I guess negative experiences are given more notice and voice than positive ones.

I think I'll ask in another thread.

Thanks.

Spock
"When all logical explanations have failed, we must look to the illogical for the answer.

gpk

Jun 22, 2004, 10:12 AM

Post #18 of 18 (379 views)

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Re: [talosian] truth, justice, and the Mexican way

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This thread seems to be another example of over-generalization about life in Mexico. I have rented and had my deposit returned, on time. I have also been a landlord and had my rent paid, on time. I have done major and minor renovations on three different properties with basically good results. I live in a "real" Mexican city and I have almost only Mexican friends--and my Spanish is still on an intermediate level. I have worked part time as both an English teacher and a lawyer. All of these experiences have been interesting, and, yes, different from similar US experiences. Don't be afraid of living in Mexico--it is challenging sometimes--usually, I think, because of our expectations--but it is definitely worth it!