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raferguson

Nov 6, 2011, 9:01 AM

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List of dangerous states

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In El Universal today, an article indicated that if you look at the lists of dangerous areas published by the US, UK, Australia, France, Germany Italy, and Spain, 20 Mexican states and the DF are listed, more than 65% of the country.

To me, perhaps the most interesting part of the article was the 10 Mexican states that appeared on the lists from every country issuing travel information, Baja California, Chihuahua, Tamulipas, Sonora, Sinaloa, Cohuila, Durango, Nuevo Leon, Michoacan, and Guerrero. In other words, the opinion about those ten states was unanimous; all the countries warned their citizens about those states. I don't think that this list would be very surprising to anyone who follows the news from Mexico.

Richard

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La Isla

Nov 6, 2011, 10:59 AM

Post #2 of 27 (1541 views)

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Re: [raferguson] List of dangerous states

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I was surprised that Mexico City was included in this list of dangerous states. Reading the article carefully, I learned that the only country to include the D.F. in its list was Australia. I wonder what criteria was used to compile these lists in the first place.

RickS

Nov 6, 2011, 11:02 AM

Post #3 of 27 (1538 views)

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Re: [La Isla] List of dangerous states

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Well I suspect it is quite different criteri, and if it is the US State Department criteria, it would seem to be a 'cover our ass' criteria.
:>)

AlanMexicali

Nov 6, 2011, 11:35 AM

Post #4 of 27 (1521 views)

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Re: [La Isla] List of dangerous states

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In the US the State Dept. information officers gather information from all their legal sources such as Mexico's Secretary Of Public Safety and then submit their data to higher ups who make the recommendations and publish them on their website and wherever else they send these reports to. I would presume all their foreign consulates, and agencies that have their employees travel abroad. etc. Data is readily available on the internet from different sources that show the violent crimes in every state of Mexico, every municipality in that state and what the nature of the crime is. I have just seen a very good graph and interactive map with these statistics but forgot to bookmark the website. I clicked on many states and was surprised how high most of the numbers really were in some places and how low they were in other places. I posted a link. Here it is:

http://www.secretariadoejecutivo.gob.mx/es/SecretariadoEjecutivo/Incidencia_Delictiva_a_Nivel_Municipal

(This post was edited by tonyburton on Nov 6, 2011, 12:41 PM)

Rolly

Nov 6, 2011, 1:16 PM

Post #5 of 27 (1484 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] List of dangerous states

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One column is labeled Lesiones Dolosas = willful or malicious injuries? I wonder what that includes?
Only bodily injuries from assaults? Murders? Accidents? All?

In looking at my state, Durango, I noticed that Gómez Palacio is missing.
Odd since it is the second largest city in the state.

Rolly Pirate

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AlanMexicali

Nov 6, 2011, 1:20 PM

Post #6 of 27 (1476 views)

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Re: [Rolly] List of dangerous states

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I assumed it meant non lethal wounds and would be on top of homicides.

Rolly

Nov 6, 2011, 1:28 PM

Post #7 of 27 (1472 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] List of dangerous states

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OOPS My bad. I had the page enlarged and don't see the other columns.

Rolly Pirate

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RickS

Nov 6, 2011, 1:40 PM

Post #8 of 27 (1464 views)

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Re: [Rolly] List of dangerous states

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This might could be a valuable website. For example if one were going to be in the state of Chihuahua and wondered about a certain locale (like Camaro), one would see that that small city seems to have a higher than 'normal' crime rate.

norteño

Nov 6, 2011, 9:16 PM

Post #9 of 27 (1381 views)

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Re: [RickS] List of dangerous states

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Or a higher rate of reporting. It is easy to find examples of municipios at the link that show zero murders during the period in question despite the fact that murders in those locations were reported in the news and the victims identified.

TxMex

Nov 7, 2011, 6:32 AM

Post #10 of 27 (1323 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] List of dangerous states

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Thanks for the link! The small town I like in the state of Veracruz isn't listed. Does that mean that there were no crimes in that town? At least it looks like kidnapping is very rare in that state.

tonyburton

Nov 7, 2011, 8:03 AM

Post #11 of 27 (1291 views)

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It may mean only that the town name is not the name of the municipio.

AlanMexicali

Nov 7, 2011, 8:45 AM

Post #12 of 27 (1273 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] List of dangerous states

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That is what I found to be confusing when first trying to find colonias or addresses where the street changed names for no apparent reason that I presumed were in the large city. I then found out many cities are made up of several municipalities. Now I even notice some of the street signs have the municipality on them and the police cars are marked differently.

YucaLandia

Nov 7, 2011, 9:06 AM

Post #13 of 27 (1265 views)

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Re: [norteño] List of dangerous states

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Reporting rate anomalies do seem significant in these numbers. The numbers of robos/burglaries without violence for Merida and Progreso both seem low by at least 2X - 5X vs. robos/burglaries with violence. This fits with the heavy non-reporting of property-only burglaries (low reporting rates) versus the very high reporting rates for violent acts here in relatively peaceful Yucatan. These reported statistics should likely not be compared with US figures, because theft losses in the US are reported at higher rates, because a police report is needed for insurance claims. When stuff is stolen here in Yucatan, the typical response is ni modo .

I mention all this because it appears that violent acts are consistently under-reported in some other areas of Mexico, while violent acts get a lot of attention here. This would mean that generalizations about "Mexico's reporting practices" completely break-down when looking at regional variations in crime statistic reporting.
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(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Nov 7, 2011, 9:10 AM)

richmx2

Nov 7, 2011, 9:11 AM

Post #14 of 27 (1259 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] List of dangerous states

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I think you may have that slightly mixed up, Alan. Your observation is correct, but most cities are divided into "colonias" — more or less a ward or some other sort of subdivision. A "Municipio" is more or less analogous to a U.S. "County" or "Borough". Especially in rural areas, several villages or communities might be in the same Municipio.

The breakdowns of crime by Municipio are quite valuable, but might be slightly misleading in some instances. For example, my "Municipio" is Mazatlán, Sinaloa, but it covers a very large geographical area (stretching from the Pacific to the Continental Divide) and crimes reported as happening in Mazatlán are not necessarily anything that is remotely close to anywhere I would be for any reason. Several communities, some rather sizable places, wouldn't show up on the listing as separate places. It's impossible to say from the list, for example, whether Villa Union is more or less crime-ridden than El Quelite, or any particular COLONIA within the built-up area known to tourists as Mazatlán.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

norteño

Nov 7, 2011, 9:14 AM

Post #15 of 27 (1256 views)

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Re: [richmx2] List of dangerous states

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The figures are only for municipalities of at least 50,000 population, although in some states smaller ones are included.

YucaLandia

Nov 7, 2011, 9:17 AM

Post #16 of 27 (1250 views)

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Re: [richmx2] List of dangerous states

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These points all sum up to say that the statistics offered are interesting, but only marginally valid, are not representative of reality, and are just not very useful ?
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YucaLandia

Nov 7, 2011, 9:27 AM

Post #17 of 27 (1243 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] List of dangerous states

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The Mayor of the Progreso explained their reporting standards this way:
" Crime with violence does not necessarily refer to physical violence against a person. Crime with violence can also refer to a forced entry into your property. Home or Car. e.g. If you left your door open while you were on the beach and someone entered and robbed your home, that is a crime without violence. But, if that door was locked and they forced entry, that is a crime with violence. "

This definition seems to further muddy the utility of the reported numbers.
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AlanMexicali

Nov 7, 2011, 10:24 AM

Post #18 of 27 (1224 views)

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Re: [norteño] List of dangerous states

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"Municipio" is different than "Municipal" in Spanish? I come from Mexicali and there is one metro area municipality and a set of pueblos connected to Mexicali with some obscured system and the ejidos which the larger two outside the city have their own fire and police. In San Luis Potosi there are two city municipality joined physically together but separate entities. When in Guadalajara there are many cities physically joined together and it gets confusing when trying to locate an address without a map following directions from someone on multiple cell phone calls, not to mention the street name changes and slight curves that take you to another street when you should have curved the other way. The lack of street signs and addresses add to the confusion. It is very easy to get to the city and main exits in Guadalajara as they are well marked. The last stay there 3 out of 4 days we parked the car at the hotel and took taxis, which was enjoyable and we saw more along the way. TJ uses very little and very few street signs and even less address numbers, even on commercial buildings. I notice this in many towns. cities and highways.

(This post was edited by AlanMexicali on Nov 7, 2011, 11:56 AM)

tonyburton

Nov 7, 2011, 11:27 AM

Post #19 of 27 (1203 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] List of dangerous states

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municipio = municipality, and you are quite right in saying that many larger metropolitan areas in Mexico cover/extend into more than one municipality.

mazbook1

Nov 7, 2011, 1:10 PM

Post #20 of 27 (1176 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] List of dangerous states

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Alan,

IN MÉXICO, Municipio (or Delegación in DF) is the same as a U.S. County, Parish (LA), Borough (New York City) or maybe some other designation I'm not familiar with. A Municipio, like a U.S. County, may be mostly rural, with only one large contiguous urban area, or it may be ALL contiguous urban area.

More often than not, the "county seat" - palacio municipal - will be in the largest of the contiguous urban areas, but these contiguous urban areas are NOT often incorporated cities, as in the U.S. but under the same government as the entire Municipio. Thus, anything with a name of something municipal or municipio de whatever refers to the entire municipio, not just the urban area. There are only 20 odd actual "incorporated" cities in México. Those are easy to find, as there name is always like this, "Ciudad Juárez" or "Ciudad Obregon", but NEVER "Ciudad de whatever".

Since I'm sort of familiar with the "Greater Guadalajara" area, here is how it breaks down: Municipio de Guadalajara (where the historic center of the city is) and the Municipios de Juanacatlán, El Salto, Tlaquepaque, Tonalá, Tlajomulco de Zúñiga, Ixtlahuacán del Río and Zapopan (where the Autonomous Univ. of Guadalajara is). These last may have some rural areas, but unless I'm mistaken, the Municipio de Guadalajara is completely urban.

Of course the Municipios are then sub-divided into various colonias, barrios, fraccionamientos (the major urban area divisions), sindicaturas, pueblos and ranchos (the major rural area divisions). Not only do street names (and/or numbering systems) change when crossing from one Municipio to another, they can do the same thing when crossing from one colonia to another within a Municipio. Without a GOOD map of the urban area, it can get terribly confusing.

AlanMexicali

Nov 7, 2011, 1:37 PM

Post #21 of 27 (1166 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] List of dangerous states

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Thank you that explains a lot.

whynotwrite

Nov 7, 2011, 2:05 PM

Post #22 of 27 (1151 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] List of dangerous states

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These points all sum up to say that the statistics offered are interesting, but only marginally valid, are not representative of reality, and are just not very useful ?

Thank you. That was my opinoin since Fergie posted. The stats are worth the price of the newspaper, nothing more.

tonyburton

Nov 7, 2011, 3:19 PM

Post #23 of 27 (1134 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] List of dangerous states

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Building on that clear explanation of numerous terms, and example, here is a map showing the Guadalajara Metropolitan Area, complete with municipal boundaries:
http://geo-mexico.com/?p=3395

norteño

Nov 7, 2011, 4:45 PM

Post #24 of 27 (1105 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] List of dangerous states

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A good explanation, but the bestowing of the term "ciudad" upon an urban area by the state legislature gives it no special status, it still remains part of the municipio without any separate government. One prominent exception to the general rule that the municipio takes its name from the largest community in it is with the case of Los Mochis. People searching for governmental data on it are often surprised to learn it is located in the municipio of Ahome.

mazbook1

Nov 7, 2011, 5:57 PM

Post #25 of 27 (1089 views)

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Re: [norteño] List of dangerous states

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"A good explanation, but the bestowing of the term "ciudad" upon an urban area by the state legislature gives it no special status, it still remains part of the municipio without any separate government."

Thank you norteño! Although I knew my information was pretty good, I remained a bit dubious of the EXACT status of cities given the "Ciudad" ranking, which can only be given by a state legislature, as you say, or by the Federal Congress. My source wasn't sure, and I made an assumption that was unwarranted. I'm still a little blank about the exact status of sindicaturas also, so if you have any information on that, I would love to have it to accurately complete my little essay on local governments in México. I "think" they are analogous to a "township" in the U.S. western plains states, but I'm certainly not ready to put that idea into print until I know more.

(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Nov 7, 2011, 6:11 PM)

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