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elcomputo

May 2, 2004, 12:33 AM

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Large Mexican Families

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I know the subject of large families and children having children has come up before. And I, and others, have remarked about the role of poor sex education in Mexico and the Church's encouragement of large families. These, no doubt, are big factors.

But it occurred to me Friday, after meeting an elderly widow who had lost her job with the university, that there is an even bigger reason for big families here: security. I don't know how much Mexico pays out to retired Mexicans or whether it pays anything at all, but I think it can't be much. The woman I talked to had no children and was in dire financial straits. I don't know exactly how old she was, but she looked to be at least 60, and probably older. I also know about a 70-year-old woman who is still working as a domestic because she had two sons who never married and turned out to be alcoholic bums dependent upon their ancient mother. And, of course, there are all the old women on the streets with their hands held out. I assume they are truly poor or they would not humble themselves that way.

Even when girls of 15 in this country get pregnant, their mothers appear to be rather proud of the fact. They seem eager to be grandparents. And, if you know that when you get old, your only hope is to be taken into the home by your kids (where you'll probably end up raising their kids while they work) or even your grandkids, why shouldn't you be eager?

Having had three kids who are pretty much spoiled ingrates and having to survive on my meager pension and my wits, I'm not so sure this is not a bad way to go. Of course, it doesn't do much for the problem of population pressure. But it sure helps make up for societies or governments that do not believe in (or can afford) safety nets for elders. The big problem, of course, is what happens to those people who never had children?



Miguelito


May 2, 2004, 5:22 AM

Post #2 of 21 (1034 views)

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Re: [elcomputo] Large Mexican Families

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Another track: I heard, at a lecture at Academio Hispano Americana recently that there is a growing problem in Mexico of old folks being left at shopping malls and such places. The families simply cannot afford to feed another mouth, for whatever reason, and grannie, or gramps, is taken on an outing and told to wait while the rest of the family goes elsewhere, never to return.

For myself, being soltero y no hijos, I'm going to rely on the Masonic lodge and their "retirement" homes to help me out. Either that or my sister and/or her kids. Failing that, who knows, but there's alzheimer's in my family for at least 2 generations so maybe my brain will be silly putty by the time I can no longer fend for myself and I won't even know it. Sort of like going through life on 4 martinis, eh what!


Los que cantan oran dos veces! (Those who sing pray twice!)


Cynthia7

May 2, 2004, 7:45 AM

Post #3 of 21 (1013 views)

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Re: [Miguelito] Large Mexican Families

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Many Mexicans feel about children like Americans feel about money-there is never enough. They feel their children are their treasures. At times they take care of their children like some folk take care of their money - not very well...but many do as well as they can and on the whole there appears to be someone in the extended family that can love and care for them. I wish we could say the same in the USA!!


gpk

May 2, 2004, 11:19 AM

Post #4 of 21 (975 views)

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Re: [elcomputo] Large Mexican Families

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I don't really mean this as criticism, just a comment. This discussion so far is the perfect example of the over-generalization of "Mexican" life based on a small sampling of observational information. Mexico has an even broader range of lifestyles and beliefs than the US. Nothing said here is false, but the comments are also not "TRUE" as in "This is the way it is in Mexico".


sfmacaws


May 2, 2004, 11:28 AM

Post #5 of 21 (971 views)

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Re: [Cynthia7] Large Mexican Families

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...but many do as well as they can and on the whole there appears to be someone in the extended family that can love and care for them. I wish we could say the same in the USA!!


Not me. Having to have multiple kids in order to secure your old age is a nightmare from my point of view, particularly for women. I much prefer having the option to get a job that pays enough to support me and for me to provide for my own old age. "God Bless the child that has its own" goes double for the old.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




esperanza

May 2, 2004, 11:31 AM

Post #6 of 21 (968 views)

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Re: [gpk] Large Mexican Families

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Amen, gpk.




http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









lmaxine

May 2, 2004, 2:15 PM

Post #7 of 21 (949 views)

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Re: [Cynthia7] Large Mexican Families

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While that is certainly true, there is also a lot of child abuse and neglect, as well as spousal abuse. There are many "throw-away" kids, and kids who prefer to live on the streets than be in the homes they come from. Mexico is just beginning to recognize that resources are needed to educate and provide services. There is also a very high suicide rate of children and adolescents.
"He upon whose heart the dust of Mexico has lain will find no peace in any other land." Malcolm Lowry


elcomputo

May 2, 2004, 4:49 PM

Post #8 of 21 (918 views)

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Re: [Miguelito] Large Mexican Families

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With no children to dump you, maybe you'd better take yourself to the shopping mall before the Alzheimer's strikes. You might have to camp out on one of those benches a long time, though.

The Masonic Home sounds like a better bet.


elcomputo

May 2, 2004, 4:53 PM

Post #9 of 21 (915 views)

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Re: [gpk] Large Mexican Families

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I don't think you can say anything is "the way it is" in Mexico any more than you can in the USA. Most societies, including the American and Mexican, are too diverse to do that. But we can make observations in an attempt to figure out what goes on in a society. De Toqueville did that with America back in the early 19th Century, and we're still using his observations as touchstones.


elcomputo

May 2, 2004, 5:05 PM

Post #10 of 21 (912 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Large Mexican Families

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I agree with you about the kids, but I'm not so sure about the part where you've got to get a good job to ensure making it through old age. I'm one of those lefties who believe that everyone, good job or not, deserves a safety net when they're too old to work. Mexico does not seem to provide one. The USA does, but it could be a lot better.

I am also one of those guys who, post facto, believes that the work you do throughout life should be what you love to do, irrespective of income. Too many of us had to opt for miserable, soul-killing jobs in corporate bureaucracies simply because it was hammered home to us that we've got to make good incomes. And the fact was we DID have to make good incomes because life in the last quarter of the last century began to get so unstable and insecure.

In retrospect, had I chosen to stay in San Francisco, get a job driving a UPS truck instead of going for a graduate degree, and holding onto my home in Upper Market, right now I would be a retired millionaire. (THat Victorian house was purchased for $25,000 in 1968 and is now worth at least $1 million.) Hmmmm, maybe you're right about going for the bucks.


El Gringo Nuevo

May 2, 2004, 9:16 PM

Post #11 of 21 (883 views)

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Re: [elcomputo] Large Mexican Families

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The families simply cannot afford to feed another mouth, for whatever reason, and grannie, or gramps, is taken on an outing and told to stay while the rest of the family goes elsewhere, never to return.

Reminds me of studies of past cultures who in the past took their sick, elderly, and/or unproductive into the bush/forest/plains and left them to die when they became too much for the tribes to contend with.


elcomputo

May 2, 2004, 10:25 PM

Post #12 of 21 (874 views)

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Re: [El Gringo Nuevo] Large Mexican Families

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Wasn't it Winston Churchill who said you can judge the quality of a society by how it treats its old people?


TomG

May 2, 2004, 10:49 PM

Post #13 of 21 (876 views)

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Re: [elcomputo] Large Mexican Families

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In Reply To
But we can make observations in an attempt to figure out what goes on in a society. De Toqueville did that ...



If a person can't make observations (like about, say, large families in Mexico) and draw conclusions, he can't think. His mind would then be nothing more than individual bits of information (good and bad), like a computer drive on its own. Imagine a world where most people just used there minds to amass a collection of unconnected data for service purposes.....

and then for the thinking part they "Just let George do it".

Jumping Jiminy!

Mexicans (in aggregate) don't even like those kinds of people.

Sometimes when one thinks and draws conclusions, they are wrong. Golly! Folks ought to grow up - get used to it. Gee wiz! It's like every few years one is actually supposed to make some observations on extremely limited and vague data, draw a lonely little conclusion, belly up to the booth and punch a chad. The fate of the Western World, Values, and Civilization As We Know It depends on it. This is called democracy, a way of thinking that we Westerners are trying very hard to proselytize.

Try having a conversation with a Mexican intellectual. He will think you are a gringo/a nitwit if you only have a head full of facts and incidents, and don't have any conclusive ideas. See what I mean?

The big drawback to thinking is the risk of being wrong. This is where courage enters into your life. Poco a poco one becomes accustom to it. Pretty soon one doesn't need George to do it. At this point one is all set up to live a mature life, sometimes making popular conclusions and sometimes making unpopular conclusions. Some conclusions in both categories are sometimes right, sometimes wrong. This is how the big boys do it.

This is the hidden secret of Western Civilization…..really!

In addition, having a lot of literate people in a society really helps these days.


(This post was edited by TomG on May 2, 2004, 10:53 PM)


ziret

May 4, 2004, 7:32 AM

Post #14 of 21 (793 views)

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Re: [TomG] Large Mexican Families

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Thanks, TomG, nice post.

Teri


gbatrucks


May 4, 2004, 9:32 AM

Post #15 of 21 (763 views)

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Re: [TomG] Large Mexican Families

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Heavy Duty...time to rethink my thought processes.

Trucks
"The trouble with life is there's no background music."


Georgia


May 4, 2004, 10:05 AM

Post #16 of 21 (753 views)

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Re: [elcomputo] OK - I'll stick my neck out here

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My husband and I have a large family, ten children. Wide age range: 17 to 43. Sometimes they drive me crazy, other times they are right there when there is a need. In times of crisis, they pull together. Sometimes they bicker. The kids have all helped one another out. If A isn't speaking with B at the moment, well, there is a whole other alphabet soup of siblings to turn to. We are all in constant contact, thanks to the wonders of e-mail, and the ebb and flow of relationships within the family has never ceased to amaze me.

The kids have formed a social support system for one another over the years. Everyone helps everyone else at one point.

Of course, there are days when I declare that in my next life I'm going to be a nun ... it would be unrealistic to expect that a dozen people in a family are all going to be happy with one another all the time. But, in the end, a large family does provide a support system tailored to the individual without filling out forms or waiting in line ... and it's so much more rewarding!

By the way, unless you all think we are overpopulating the earth, most of our children are not our biological children: several of them were abandoned by their mothers who had no support system, either familial or governmental.


elcomputo

May 5, 2004, 12:37 PM

Post #17 of 21 (685 views)

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Re: [lmaxine] Large Mexican Families

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Lmaxine,

Could you comment further on that high suicide rate among Mexican youth? I had never heard that before. Where did you get that information?

How does the rate compare with the US rate for the same age group? I would have thought the Mexican rate was lower because I had assumed, first, a tighter family structure down here and, second, less access to one of the prime tools of suicide, hand guns.


elcomputo

May 5, 2004, 12:51 PM

Post #18 of 21 (680 views)

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Re: [Georgia] OK - I'll stick my neck out here

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Good on you! Wouldn't it be great if more people could take on the world's unwanted kids? It would even be nice if, in the event we were unable to take them into our family, we could just treat them as family. Unfortunately, a lot of us just aren't very good at raising our OWN kids, let alone taking on others. But you are to be admired for what you have done. Wish there were more people like you.


lmaxine

May 5, 2004, 12:59 PM

Post #19 of 21 (680 views)

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Re: [elcomputo] Large Mexican Families

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I have no statistics, but watch the Guadalajara news on cable almost every day, and almost daily, there are reports of suicides, with comments by the "conductores" that the suicide rate of young people is very high. Most of them seem to be by hanging themselves, and some who jump off buildings. They often report that there were family problems, and sometimes it's a romantic problem. Guns are usually NOT mentioned. As I commented in a previous post, there are few resources here for help outside the family. Psychological help is not only less available than in the US, but still seen as a stigma and to be avoided. I suggest if you want more information, you might find it by going to websites of the media. I worked in the NYC Board of Ed. as a teacher and a guidance counselor for 34 years, and we had many workshops on suicide, what to look for in the students' behavior, and what steps to take for interventions, so I'm somewhat sensitive to this issue and feel so sad when I watch the news reports of children and adolescents who feel that killing themselves is the only alternative to their problems.
"He upon whose heart the dust of Mexico has lain will find no peace in any other land." Malcolm Lowry


elcomputo

May 5, 2004, 1:08 PM

Post #20 of 21 (674 views)

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Re: [lmaxine] Large Mexican Families

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Yes, I think evidence like this perhaps puts the lie to a statement I have heard over and over again from Mexicans: "We are a happy people." There appears to be a high suicide rate among children, and we know there is a very high rate of alcoholism and wife and child abuse.

Yes, there are a lot of festivals in this country, and alcohol consumption is going to make people feel pretty "happy" for a while. But under all this "happiness," there does appear to be some real turmoil. And why shouldn't there be? There is a great deal of economic insecurity, and a lot of families are broken by the fact the breadwinner has to sneak into the USA and stay there for an extended period just to support his family.

I wouldn't be surprised that there might be a great deal of suicide among older Mexicans, too, being reported as natural death.


Rolly


May 5, 2004, 2:13 PM

Post #21 of 21 (663 views)

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Suicide rates

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Here is a sample of the information available at this site http://www.nationmaster.com/...at_you_mal&id=us

Among young males (15-24), the suicide rate per 100,000:
Mexico = 5.7
USA = 21.9

You can find the numbers for other age groups and genders at the website.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
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