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sk1

Nov 20, 2003, 7:20 AM

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Illegal immigration

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I am curious to see if anyone will respond or have some advice.

I am a US citizen who is currently involved with a man from Mexico. Like many, he entered the US illegaly and is working under a false ss#. As many have pointed out, the system is set up so that is virtually impossible for the average person coming from Mexico (or any other latin american country)to come to the US legally. Recently because of a family emergency Tomas had to return home. When coming back, I did not hear from him for about 15 days while he was in the dessert and then in a house waiting to continue his trip. Perhaps because it was the first time I ever experienced being involved with anything like this it was very eye-opening. It was an extremely dangerous, scary situation that millions of people go through in hopes of opportunity and a better life.

What one goes through to come here and the way they are treated affects the quality of life in every aspect. Since we have been involved for a while, we often talk about marriage but from the research I have been doing I realize that even that is not going to be easy.

On a personal level, it is a very difficult situation. I feel rather isolated since I do not know anyone else going through or dealing with the same situation. Also, I am almost hyper-aware of all the stereotypes and racism that exist. The minute many people find out that my boyfriend is from Mexico they have an immediate stereotype. Of course, the people that react this way do not matter but it certainly gets tiresome dealing with such ignorance.

Any advice?

alex .

Nov 20, 2003, 8:15 AM

Post #2 of 20 (1260 views)

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Re: [sk1] its an everyday occurence

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especially around christmas time. The desert crossings are life threating and once in the US one does as you describe. In addition to what you describe there is living under the constant threat of someone calling immigration as retribution for some percieved wrong done to them. And there is the car thing: get pulled over for a minor traffic violation and away goes the vehicle on a tow truck, never to be seen again. I know a gal that has lost 3 cars that way now: no drivers licence, no insurance, no registration/ownership documents. Many of these folks keep plugging along this way, hoping for the next Amnesty Program to come along.
I am not offering any judgement or solution to your problem, just letting you know that you are not alone.
Alex

sk1

Nov 20, 2003, 8:36 AM

Post #3 of 20 (1250 views)

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Re: [alex .] its an everyday occurence

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Thank you for your response. In regard to the car situation, I have never heard of anything like that at least in the state I am in. I think this state is one of the only ones in which you can obtain a driver's liscence without the dmv checking ss#. Therefore, I have not heard of a lot of situations like the one you described.

alex .

Nov 20, 2003, 9:04 AM

Post #4 of 20 (1239 views)

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Re: [sk1] driver license,

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One still needs to produce a US birth certificate though. And without the license one cannot get insurance, without insurance cannot register the vehicle, etc.
The topic relates to Mexico in the following way: we get many inquiries on the fora about the very same issues with Americans & other foreigners in Mexico. How to get a Mexican drivers license? Well, in some states one must produce a residency document(FM3 for example). How to buy and register a car w/MX plates? Insurance? Whole nuther deal. Working or running a business in MX? Get the documents or be constantly looking over your shoulder for Migracion to deport you. The difficulties are reciprocal, you see, the difference is in the perception. For Mexicans in the US the problems can be seen as a tragedy or "thats what happens when you're illegal, too bad."
For Americans in Mexico its "not fair, we deserve better treatment than this" or "I just don't understand what the Mexican Government's problem is."
Sticky wicket, I'd say,
Alex

sk1

Nov 20, 2003, 9:17 AM

Post #5 of 20 (1232 views)

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Re: [alex .] driver license,

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I understand your point. I was looking at it from the viewpoint of a Mexican trying to get a license here in the US. As it stands right now, as long as you have your liscense you can then get insurance, register your car, etc.

(This post was edited by sk1 on Nov 20, 2003, 9:19 AM)

Rolly

Nov 20, 2003, 9:17 AM

Post #6 of 20 (1231 views)

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Re: [alex .] driver license,

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"The difficulties are reciprocal, you see, the difference is in the perception."

Indeed. Well said, Alex.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook

esperanza

Nov 20, 2003, 9:36 AM

Post #7 of 20 (1226 views)

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Re: [Rolly] driver license,

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Yep. And along the same lines, it's interesting how many English-speaking folks live in Mexico and never try to learn even rudimentary Spanish. They're a lot of the same folks who gripe (that's the expurgated version of what I mean) about the Mexicans in the USA who don't know English.

A lot of the USA seems to have a bad case of entitle-itis.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

(This post was edited by esperanza on Nov 20, 2003, 9:37 AM)

sk1

Nov 20, 2003, 10:09 AM

Post #8 of 20 (1219 views)

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Re: [esperanza] driver license,

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That's interesting because I have taught both Spanish and ESL here in the US. I have a real problem with the whole argument about "them" (spanish speakers) learning English. I have found that the majority that try to learn Spanish (adult learners) drop it quickly because it is so uncomfortable for them. I have taught in all different settings to all different education levels and regardless, people do not realize how hard it is to learn a language.
I lived in Guadalajara for a short time and I remember some folks from the US would insist on trying to speak English to the locals. I never understood it!

Carron

Nov 20, 2003, 10:35 AM

Post #9 of 20 (1211 views)

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Re: [sk1] Illegal immigration

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I am posting based on experience, but since it has been almost five years, I am not sure if the info is still valid. However, in Texas at least, it is very easy for a Mexican to marry an American. If you have ever traveled the border from the Rio Grande north in that state, you will be amazed at the number of justices of the peace between the border and the second 50 mile check point! When my daughter married her Mexican husband in Mexico, the immigration documents (and mordidas) were beyond frustrating, but it finally happened.

They left immediately for Texas and ran into all sorts of problems with INS. Finally an official at the border told them if the Mexican husband could just get into the state on any kind of tourist or student visa, and if they re-married there within 14 days, he would automatically be legalized if after the marriage he started his paperwork legally to become a permanent resident. Their second marriage was short and sweet, each showing only a passport to the JP and all witnesses present agreeing there was no reason why they were not legally free to marry. There was no requirement that the couple both be US citizens. Within days, the INS was processing his paperwork legally. Within only a few weeks he had a SS number and a work permit (these were not cheap--$500 or so then-- and my married son also had to vouch that he would, if necessary, support my son-in-law to prevent his going on welfare).

While we were at the INS office in Houston for the first time, we met a young woman who had married an illegal in Texas. She said she paid an immigration lawyer $900 and then covered a "fine" because her husband was illegal, but after the fine all was forgiven and he was well on his way to being a permanent resident as well.

esperanza

Nov 20, 2003, 10:47 AM

Post #10 of 20 (1208 views)

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Re: [sk1] driver license,

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Actually, I have a great deal more compassion with this situation than my post would give me credit for. I have taught Spanish to native English-speakers both in the States and in Mexico and have learned that it is extremely difficult for folks over the age of (well, to be generous) 60 to learn it. The biggest problem is with retention; at that age, our memories just won't hold on to new words, verb tenses, etc, for the length of time we need in order for them to be in cement. Most of my students start out with all the interest and goodwill in the world but drop out fast when they realize their own retention problems.

The situation is different~but the results are the same~with native Spanish-speakers in the States. Many, if not most, are younger people who live and work in predominately Spanish-speaking enclaves where there's no overwhelming need to quickly learn English. By the time their children go to school, the parents start to rely on the kids as interpreters.

However: I've yet to see a native Spanish-speaker demand that a store clerk or other low-level worker (or for that matter, ANY level worker) in the United States speak Spanish. How is it that native English-speakers make that demand in Mexico? Who the heck do they think they are, and where?

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Rolly

Nov 20, 2003, 11:17 AM

Post #11 of 20 (1205 views)

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Re: [esperanza] driver license,

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It isn't just retention; hearing can also be a major problem for us old folks. That's my situation. I know a lot more Spanish than I can understand when I hear it spoken, and my accent is so bad that almost no one can undertand me. I know the numbers from 0 to infinity, but I can almost never understand the clerk in the store. Damn frustrating! But I muddle on.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook

gfarmer

Nov 20, 2003, 4:16 PM

Post #12 of 20 (1172 views)

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Re: [sk1] Illegal immigration

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Sk1, I have some suggestions for you. I brought my girl friend to the U.S. and at that time, Jan 2000 she had a legal visa. We were married in June but we are still waiting the final interview with immigration. It is a long and difficult process. Along the way, we learned that we could have married in Mexico and then I could return to the U.S. and and filed an application to bring her here. It may have been faster, because the processing is done in Juarez.

Also, I could have brought her here legally on a fiancee visa. That is done in Juarez and is rather fast...2 0r 3 dayprocess. Then he would have a legal visa status but you must get married within 90 days. Then you begin the application for permanent residence for him. I believe that initially he will be given some temporary status.

Best of luck.

gfarmer

jeffsitka

Nov 20, 2003, 5:21 PM

Post #13 of 20 (1159 views)

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Re: [Carron] Illegal immigration

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"While we were at the INS office in Houston for the first time, we met a young woman who had married an illegal in Texas. She said she paid an immigration lawyer $900 and then covered a "fine" because her husband was illegal, but after the fine all was forgiven and he was well on his way to being a permanent resident as well."

I've heard of similar cases. My recommendation to sk1 is to speak with an immigration attorney and explore the options. Catholic Social Services offers immigration counseling in Alaska. They may have similar programs in other parts of the US.

rollajane

Nov 27, 2003, 10:16 PM

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Re: [jeffsitka] Illegal immigration

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Living in San Miguel de Allende for three years I have picked up a few nouns. Many Mexicans speak a little English and show and tell (if you want paperclips for example take one with you) works. The Mexican people are kind and will take the time to help if you are patient. Other bilingual friends help occasionally. Also there is a program on the internet which costs $90 to download thet interperts as you type. This can be used in stores and with domestic help. It is Logomedia.net. Pretty good interpreter for everyday things. Pronuncation is my problem. Can't do the rr with a thrill. But by and large my husband and I get along OK

Rolla and Jane

mjr234

Nov 28, 2003, 6:17 PM

Post #15 of 20 (1005 views)

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Re: [Rolly] driver license,

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The recent research shows that the critical period hypothesis --- how young one would have to be to learn a second language to a native-like fluency --- and they generally pick pubertyas the cut-off age, is "still controversial". [Archibald, J. Second Language Acquisition Research Second Language Phenology, 1998] The research generally supports most claims that your will never remove an accent in any language you learn after age 12; so don't sweat it. Besides, your accent and mine are probably different enough, though both English, that we could spend a lifetime mimicking, copying or laughing one at the other. It is still English [maybe not the Queen's English] and equally valid English. The last section of the Archibald article suggests that alcohol in moderation improves the accent - possibly as a result of loosening the facial muscles. I would wish to fully support his arguments, but don't see what moderation has to do with it. Nice Pictures. Michael in Ottawa, where it is now snowing.

Allen Murphy

Dec 26, 2003, 3:14 PM

Post #16 of 20 (889 views)

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Re: [rollajane] Illegal immigration

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That's why I would never live in San Miguel- There are too many americans who treat Mexico as their colony. For goodness sake shouldn't you learn spanish and not just a few nouns? Allen Murphyr

elcomputo

Dec 26, 2003, 7:50 PM

Post #17 of 20 (860 views)

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Aprender espanol es muy deficil

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Thank you, Esperanza and Rolly for confirming what I was already suspecting. I'm almost 65, and I've been trying to get by pretty much on what Spanish I learned in college over 40 years ago. I have been trying to improve on it, but am finding it quite difficult. Each day I seem to forget more vocabulary than I learn. And even if I know a word or phrase, it just doesn't come to me at the time I want it (a problem many of us oldsters have even with our native language at this stage of life).

When you have to stop and think of the verb you want to use, then put it in the proper tense and use the correct conjugation, you can forget about sounding like anything other than a complete idiot, let alone have an intelligent conversation in Spanish. Fortunately, shop clerks, ticket sellers, etc., tend to be pretty patient with a language-challenged old fart like myself. But I am beginning to despair of ever really becoming part of anything but a gringo community down here. And I don't know what to do about that.

Even before I had a hearing loss, I had a learning disability that affected how I heard people when they spoke. While I have some difficulty understanding a Mexican newscaster, with his or her perfect diction and with the volume control turned up, there is no way I can understand the average Mexican's accent, slang, or speech impediments, and there is no way I can turn up the volume on them.

As for my survival language skills, I can usually make myself understood, and I can usually understand others by having them speak louder, and more slowly. Then I can pick up individual words, and I can pick up meaning from the context of a situation. But this is communications only at its most basic level. About the only thing I am half-decent at is reading the Spanish subtitles on the videos shown on the buses (which is good; when the dialog is in English, they always seem to have the sound tracks turned way down).

Esperanza is correct about age as a very big factor. If you have ever seen older immigrants in the USA, no matter where they are from, very seldom have they learned any English. They leave the English conversation and the translations up to their children or grandchildren.

This is not just a phenomenon of the stupid American. But, to be honest, I have not yet seen, thank goodness, a gringo insisting that a Mexican speak English. That would tick me off to the extreme. I HAVE seen, and may have resorted to this myself, gringos trying to "invent" Spanish words (a la Brad Pitt in "The Mexican," who was looking for a "truck-o" rather than a "camion") by the expedient of sticking an "o" on the end of an English word. That usually turns out to produce a laugh all around, and sometimes it even works!

PeggyS

Dec 27, 2003, 12:54 AM

Post #18 of 20 (848 views)

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Re: [esperanza] driver license,

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I got such a big kick out of this reply that I finally had to ask if anyone has ever lived in Miami? Only Spanish is spoken everywhere escept in the biggest malls and, of course, Miami Beach. When I lived in Fort Lauderdale, our favorite restaurant that we would go to often with Miami friends was Chinese and had super food. No one spoke anything but Spanish except maybe the owner, who was of course Chinese. Every store, every restaurant that we went to, and I'm speaking of all of Miami, not just one section, the folks spoke Spanish, and if you spoke English, (which no one did) they just stared at you.
I had to go to a U.S agency after Hurrican Andrew in 1992, and the closest one was in Miami. We had to report damage, claims, insurance, etc. and when I finally found the place and walked in, there were lines everywhere and only Spanish spoken. I was close to tears as the talk was so fast, and I didn't know the words for all the papers I had had to bring with me. I finally stopped an official-looking guy hurrying past me and said desperately, "Does anyone speak English?" and he answered, "Of course, we all do", and told me which line to get into. Don't forget, this is a U.S. agency in Florida!
Hope sk1 gets a kick out of this.
Or, as has been said for years, Will the last American leaving Miami please turn out the light?

Carol Schmidt

Dec 27, 2003, 6:18 PM

Post #19 of 20 (789 views)

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Re: [Allen Murphy] Don't be so hard on Rollajane!

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I'm sure Rolla and Jane know far more than a few nouns and they were just using that phrase for effect. I say I know almost nothing in Spanish but my sister was here for Christmas and she was astonished at how much I could speak it. I didn't realize how much I knew until she pointed it out.

Norma and I have spent more than $1200 US on Spanish classes and still feel we know next to nothing. We're about to spend another $350 retaking the last class, which is designed to take us out of present tense and into the world of irregular past tense verbs and those irritating pronouns which show up all over the place. We had to go back to the States for three months after the last class and forgot everything we learned. Almost.

A sign of colonialism: I feel fairly comfortable at stating what it is I want or need in Spanish but lost when the Mexican I am talking to tries to tell me why that can't happen! I usually end up repeating what it is I want or need and looking just as befuddled at the response in Spanish. Or, even more common, the person then responds in English! That is indeed a problem in San Miguel, it is too easy to get by since so many Mexicans speak a little English and they are so accommodating in trying to help us. Only rarely has someone rolled his eyes when I couldn't roll my Rs.

Have to say I have seen cases of gringos here upset because a Mexican can't speak English. Norma was at the consulate having her financial records verified for her FM3 renewal, and she was the first there but some other gringos pushed their way ahead. When the door opened the young Mexican guard made it clear that Norma was to go first and the line must be orderly. One woman grumbled, "Give them some power and it goes to their heads." Norma glared at her, smiled at the guard, and said, "I was here first."

A half hour later we were at the office of the guy who had helped us with our papers, and his clerk approached Norma and asked for her papers so she could begin typing the forms. The same woman who had been obnoxious at the consulate then came in and sat down, and when the clerk approached her and asked for her papers, the woman reacted like she was being robbed.

Norma finally intervened and told her that the clerk wanted her papers to start filling in the forms. "So why didn't she say so?" the woman said.

"She did, in Spanish," Norma replied. They argued back and forth on the logic of Mexicans speaking Spanish in their own country.

Norma tried to tell her the story of how we had been in Phoenix and asked an older woman for directions. She apologized profusely that she was sorry she couldn't speak English, she was too old to learn easily.

We replied that we understood, we really did, we knew how hard it was to learn a second language because we now lived in Mexico and were trying to learn Spanish! We did this in our halting Spanish, and she was happy that we sympathized. Boy, did we! She probably has had far worse experiences in the U.S. not knowing English than we have had in SMA, where the worst we get is someone rolling his eyes!

Carol Schmidt

Carron

Dec 28, 2003, 10:22 AM

Post #20 of 20 (755 views)

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Re: [PeggyS] driver license,

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Many years ago my oldest daughter (30 plus now) married a Puerto Rican man she met in Dallas while he was in the military. They moved to Miami because (as many Latin men are ) he was a mama's boy and mama had a very nice condo. My daughter used to call me going crazy because she did not at that time speak Spanish. When she stayed at home, before she got a job, she was terrified to answer the phone because the callers could not speak any English. The only person in the entire building who spoke English was the elderly custodian!

Some years later she and her two children came with us on a tourist visit to Mexico. She spoke beautiful Spanish and the locals always smiled and engaged her in conversation. It is said that the very best way to learn the language is via pillow talk. I tend to agree!