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gpkisner

Oct 20, 2009, 2:56 PM

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Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border:
http://assets.opencrs.com/.../R40733_20090921.pdf
A new Congressional Research Service report. One small point:

"ATF reports that there are around 6,700 FFLs (federal firearms licensees) in the United States operating in the Southwest

border region of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California."

Send this to your Congresspeople and Senators.

(This post was edited by gpkisner on Oct 20, 2009, 2:59 PM)

Zarcero

Oct 20, 2009, 3:37 PM

Post #2 of 28 (759 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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Is there a point you are trying to make? Or is this a link-and-run type of post?

gpkisner

Oct 20, 2009, 4:23 PM

Post #3 of 28 (747 views)

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Re: [Zarcero] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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US made/sold guns are responsable for most of the narco-deaths and the unbelievable power of the narcos here in Mexico. The greed of the gun industry is insatiable. I suggested (or meant to suggest) every US citizen living in Mexico or that cares about Mexico write his/her Congressmen/women and Senators. Send a copy of this report along with your letter.

(This post was edited by gpkisner on Oct 20, 2009, 4:25 PM)

chinagringo

Oct 20, 2009, 6:31 PM

Post #4 of 28 (724 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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I can tell you that on August 14th, we were stopped by U.S. Customs/Homeland Security on the U.S. side of the Santa Teresa, NM border crossing. Numerous questions about cash and weapons! Just about responded with: "are you efen nuts asking about an American taking guns into MX?" but decided they would not see the humor in that type of comment! So just maybe, we are taking baby steps to halt the flow? I do remember reading an article that stated between Jan 09 and July 09, the seizures of cash (in the multi-millions) and somewhere around 1000 or so weapons had been seized on the New Mexico side of the border that were headed for MX. Would guess that to be a drop in the bucket but enforcement is justified.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

gpkisner

Oct 21, 2009, 5:02 AM

Post #5 of 28 (672 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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I hope the US is doing something. According to news reports from about a year ago, at least 2000 guns enter Mexico illegally from the US EVERY DAY.

Zarcero

Oct 21, 2009, 5:59 AM

Post #6 of 28 (662 views)

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Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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Write to US legislators? What good will that do? They will simply pass new laws that are no different from already existing laws. Same type of laws that were supposed to stop the flow of drugs and illegal aliens, stop terrorists, etc.

Most of the weapons I have seen in Mexico are from non-US manufacturing. The reports I have read estimate that it is less than a 1/3 are from the US, and that these are limited to pistols. The automatic weapons employed in the narco-wars, where the massive killing is done, are not US weapons. Take a close look. The automatic weapons being employed are almost all from Europe.

Is your actual concern that you are in reality anti 2nd Amendment? And is this topic really designed to take us down that road to discuss the 2nd Amendment.

(This post was edited by Zarcero on Oct 21, 2009, 6:00 AM)

Hound Dog

Oct 21, 2009, 6:12 AM

Post #7 of 28 (656 views)

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Re: [Zarcero] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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The automatic weapons employed in the narco-wars, where the massive killing is done, are not US weapons. Take a close look. The automatic weapons being employed are almost all from Europe.

But purchased in the United States because of criminally lax laws governing automatic weapons sales and possession. The United States and Mexico are both to blame but the United States is complicit in supporting the cartels with a market for their drugs and a source of their weaponry.

(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Oct 21, 2009, 6:13 AM)

Zarcero

Oct 21, 2009, 6:23 AM

Post #8 of 28 (653 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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Quote

Feel free to use humor on them. On one of my trips I crossed at Del Rio into Cd. A. I went over at night, on foot, to get my FMT and grab a beer/dinner. I was stopped by two USBP while crossing the bridge. The dialogue went something like this:

USBP1: Sir, where are you going?
Zarcero: Uh,...,France?
USBP1: <chuckle> Very funny. Can we see ID?
Zarcero: Sure, here's my passport.
USBP1: Do you have a driver's license?
Zarcero: Yep, here it is and here is my concealed handgun permit (USBP2 calls in the driver's license on his radio and the gun permit).
USBP1: Are you carrying a weapon?
Zarcero: No. That would be illegal in Mexico.
USBP1: What are your plans in Mexico?
Zarcero: Why are you asking that? I don't believe I have to answer that.
USBP2 (interrupts): His driver's license came back clean, so did his concealed handgun permit.
USBP1: You don't have to answer our questions, we are just getting an idea of what night foot traffic is about.
Zarcero: Okay, well since you guys are polite, I am walking across to get a tourist card and maybe have a beer at the Corona Club. Then I will walk back to Del Rio. Spend the night in Del Rio, and cross again on my motorcycle into Mexico at dawn. Why are you asking questions to the guys going out? Aren't you supposed to be doing that to the guys coming in?
USBP1: We are on the lookout for fugitives. Typically they walk into Mexico at night crossing one of the bridges by foot. Usually alone, no luggage. You fit the profile.
Zarcero: Okay, thanks.

Hound Dog

Oct 21, 2009, 7:01 AM

Post #9 of 28 (646 views)

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Re: [Zarcero] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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Zarcero:

You story on humor at the border reminds me one from way back in the 1960s when my old crew boss with the Federal Home Loan Bank Board (remember them - the savings and loan regulatory authority´s examination arm that failed so miserably?) was crossing the border from Tijuana to San Diego on a Sunday evening looped out of his gourd and the following dialogue ensued:

Border Agent: Where are you from, sir?
Boss: San Franceeeesco (Har Har)
Border Agent: Well, now, sir, that was highly amusing. Wait here, please, my supervisor would like to speak with you but at the moment he is quite busy.

I believe he finally crossed the border a couple of very unpleasant days later.

This fellow, who loved to go get drunk in Tijuana when assigned to San Diego, also later carried a pistol with him to Mazatlan on vacation and was caught by Mexican authorities en route back to California. He was imprisoned for a while and nearly lost his job with the U.S. Federal Government which never fires anybody. They gave him nothing to do - no assignment at all - for six months as puinishment and he just sat in a corner of the regional office eight hours a day but never quit so they finally gave up and sent him on permanent assignment to Fresno - a fate worse than death.

(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Oct 21, 2009, 7:16 AM)

Peter

Oct 21, 2009, 7:03 AM

Post #10 of 28 (645 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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In Reply To

US made/sold guns are responsable for most of the narco-deaths and the unbelievable power of the narcos here in Mexico.

I believe it is the idiotic drug laws that are most responsible for this. Of course they are not so idiotic for those who use and control them. It seems illicit drug money has always been used to purchase weapons and accumulate power. The Evil Empire has been able to topple and supplant undesireable governments by controlling drug flow, though not always with the desired final outcome.

It's all done in the name of protecting its citizens, but I wonder if left alone there would actually be more deaths and violence with a 'hands-off' approach than there currently is with the full-on drug war. Doubt it.

donemry

Oct 21, 2009, 8:44 AM

Post #11 of 28 (618 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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Let me preface what I am about say. I am not a gun owner or an NRA member, nor do I ever intend to be either. I will occasionally stay at a Holdiay Inn Express, however.

I have actually read the referenced report, have you? You, and/or, the source of your statement has been "cherry picking". For example, there are 104,000 FFL's in the US. How does the number in the border states compare and what is the historical background of gun ownership in those states?

The report also supports the contentions that the 90% of guns in Mexico figure is not a valid measure.

If you would like some more background, may I suggest these links. Please pay attention to the diversity of the links.

http://www.latimes.com/...,229992.story?page=2

http://www.nraila.org/...on/read.aspx?id=4632#

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...gun-tr_b_187328.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/...s-ban-reinstatement/#

Zarcero

Oct 21, 2009, 9:27 AM

Post #12 of 28 (600 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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You story on humor at the border reminds me one from way back in the 1960s

Dawg. Well not similar outcomes, and your buddy obviously didn't know how to read the situation, plus he was was engaged in illegal behavior. Nice thing about having a carry permit, is that any authority that sees it, at least here in TX, knows you have had a background investigation done and that you have no offenses in your record. You don't get the permit unless you are a proven law-abiding citizen.

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I believe it is the idiotic drug laws that are most responsible for this.

Peter. I believe it is the idiotic use of illegal narcotics that is most responsible for this.

Quote

The report also supports the contentions that the 90% of guns in Mexico figure is not a valid measure.

donemry. Agreed. I think this is more of the same "blame America" crowd that I hear so much from in the news media, and in my travels outside of the US - especially the A Movable Feast types. The conspiracy-theory folks like to point the finger at the US gooberment, gun owners, the right wing, gun manufacturers, etc. They seem to bypass the part of the blame for the guys who actually pull the triggers, and also bypass the blame for a nation that likes to get high. Instead, it must be some "higher power" that is responsible for all this.

(This post was edited by Zarcero on Oct 21, 2009, 11:46 AM)

Peter

Oct 21, 2009, 10:17 AM

Post #13 of 28 (586 views)

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Re: [Zarcero] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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I believe it is the idiotic drug laws that are most responsible for this.

Peter. I believe it is the idiotic use of illegal narcotics that is most responsible for this.

_____________

I believe there is a line between use and abuse. Problem is a good many do not recognize when that line is crossed. Still, I believe we have a bigger problem caused by the laws that created the illicit market than if it were just left alone.

I do not believe those laws exist because they are in the best interest of the public. They do, however, serve some people's best interests.

gpkisner

Oct 21, 2009, 10:19 AM

Post #14 of 28 (583 views)

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Re: [donemry] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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Why do you think the CRS made the report if not to emphasize the need to better control the entry of guns into Mexico? Why would anyone operate a gun store on the border except to make it easier for the criminals to bring the guns into Mexico? There are as many or more stories indicating that the vast majority (who knows the real percentage?) of guns in Mexico come from or through the US. Just one more item from the report:

"More than 23,000 firearms were recovered by Mexican authorities and submitted for tracing to

the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

(ATF) from FY2004 through FY2008.8 Although only a fraction of recovered firearms are

submitted for tracing,9 approximately 87% of traced firearms were determined to have originated

in the United States.10"

(This post was edited by gpkisner on Oct 21, 2009, 10:21 AM)

Peter

Oct 21, 2009, 10:46 AM

Post #15 of 28 (576 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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Aren't people allowed to have guns for home protection in Mexico? In the home or on the rancho they can still pose a danger, though it's a calculated risk weighed against having no home protection. Firearms become a nuisance when taken to the streets.

Do you think better gun control will stop those intent on using explosives? Would you feel more secure if only the police and military had guns?

donemry

Oct 21, 2009, 11:01 AM

Post #16 of 28 (567 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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From the report that you referenced.

"

ATF Briefing for CRS, May 18, 2008

From FY2005 through FY2007, ATF traced just over 11,700 firearms recovered by Mexican

authorities. Although only a fraction of recovered firearms were submitted for tracing,

approximately 90% of those firearms were found to have originated in the United States.89 Of

those traced firearms, nearly 75% were reported to be handguns and 25% long guns. At that time

there was no public information about the number of those handguns and long guns that were

possibly “semiautomatic assault weapons.” However, 25 machine guns were reportedly

confiscated, of which six were traced back to U.S. military inventories.90 In addition, reports

indicate that in at least 10 instances, Mexican authorities recovered U.S. manufactured 66

millimeter anti-tank weapons from Mexican DTOs.91

Caution should be exercised when drawing conclusions from ATF crime gun trace data. Although

it is valid to say that 90% of traced firearms originated in the United States, it would be invalid to

conclude that 90% of all guns used in crime in Mexico originated in the United States. Crime gun

trace data are useful measurements of crime gun trends; however, the issues of consistent,

random, and unbiased data collection have not been adequately addressed through comprehensive

tracing and other controls. Hence, it is often not possible to test for statistical significance.

Nevertheless, even though a statistically valid percent estimate of US-sourced firearms cannot be

made based on trace data, criminal investigations have documented that there is great demand for

certain firearms that are available in normal (non-military) commercial channels in the United

States and that those firearms have been illegally trafficked to Mexico in large numbers."

(This post was edited by tonyburton on Oct 21, 2009, 11:14 AM)

Zarcero

Oct 21, 2009, 11:58 AM

Post #17 of 28 (545 views)

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Re: [donemry] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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Peter,

Here is a reference on current gun control in Mexico along with some historical context http://www.davekopel.com/...Mexican-Gun-Laws.htm

The thing to note here is that gun control is not working. It doesn't work because only those who abide by the law are abiding by the law. The fundamental law of the land, however, is that the Mexican constitution allows guns to be owned much like the US 2nd Amendment.

However, I don't need a constitution or a piece of paper to tell me how to defend myself. I take the Ted Nugent approach to gun ownership. See the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCHtw6WbbnM

richmx2

Oct 21, 2009, 1:20 PM

Post #18 of 28 (526 views)

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Re: [donemry] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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The "fine print" was included mostly for political reasons. While true that 90 percent of TRACEABLE firearms originate in the U.S:, the untraceable ones PROBABLY -- but not without reasonable doubt -- also originate in the United States. I'm aware of only one major firearms "bust" near the Guatemalan border recently, and along the United States border (and near ports of entry from the United States, like Lazaro Cardenas) is where you find the most guns.

One factor no one talks about is that besides the 3000 plus police agencies in Mexico, private security firms are not well regulated, and a good number of those guns could be "legal imports"... on top of those stolen from armories throughout the southwest (almost never reported outside the local newspapers), "straw buyer sales" and gun shows.
http://mexfiles.net

jl1

Oct 26, 2009, 4:12 PM

Post #19 of 28 (401 views)

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Re: [Zarcero] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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It sounds to me like you're the one taking the thread down that road. And what do you mean by "most of the weapons I've seen"? Are you with ATF? If not, how many guns could have personally seen? Enough to draw the conclusions you have drawn? Somehow I doubt it.

richmx2

Oct 26, 2009, 7:01 PM

Post #20 of 28 (374 views)

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Re: [jl1] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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Zacero... the place of manufacture isn't at issue, but has been spun by some political groups in the U.S. who somehow believe controls on exports to Mexico interfere with their rights to blow each other to kingdom come. What is at issue is the point of sale... which for 90 percent of a traceable sample, was the United States. By inference and the laws of probability, most illegal firearms in Mexico were purchased, stolen or otherwise acquired in the United States.
http://mexfiles.net

donemry

Oct 27, 2009, 9:50 AM

Post #21 of 28 (316 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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You seem to be saying, that if a gun was legally exported to an official branch of the Mexican government and then later stolen or misused, that constitutes a problem with the laws regarding gun sales in the US. The "untracable guns" would be considered "untraceable" for a reasonable cause. Perhaps lack of a serial number or perhaps manufactured in a country that does not require serial number tracking. The US gun manufacturers are not the largest in the world. Perhaps you have heard of "international arms merchants", if so consider what they sell and to whom and their sources.

Please also understand that I am not picking on you as an individual. I happen to be on a campaign against "fuzzy" thinking in internet posts this month. I fear I shall never be able to keep up.

richmx2

Oct 27, 2009, 1:36 PM

Post #22 of 28 (284 views)

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Re: [donemry] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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That's fine Domery. In a forum like this, one isn't going to get into statistical analysis, or bore everyone with footnoted documentation.

Without getting into those footnotes and statistics, look at where arms show up in Mexico... the further you get from places where U.S. goods (legally and otherwise) enter Mexico, the less arms you find.

As to the "gray market" in "legal" imports, certainly there's a problem on this side of the border. Joe's Police Stuff Inc. in Wherethehell, Idaho isn't going to check that the Noplacetitlan Police Dept. even exists, or that they are buying a bunch of weapons for legitimate reasons. And, with private security so poorly regulated in Mexico, there's an even bigger loophole for seemingly legitimate imports.

Arms without serial numbers: no reason to assume that because they are untraceable, they did not originate the same place those easily traceable did.

The faulty logic seems to be in denying that most arms in Mexico do enter via the United States, and spinning not very plausible explanations as probablities... and as statistically significant ones at that.
http://mexfiles.net

Zarcero

Oct 29, 2009, 5:01 AM

Post #23 of 28 (241 views)

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Re: [jl1] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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Well then doubt it. After all this is the internet. This sounds like more "blame America first" nonsense, in the political context, hate Bush, yadda-yadda, etc. I have noticed this in several expat communities around the world. I hope that is not true here.

Wanna lay blame on America? Okay, lay it on the fact the we have the world's most voracious appetite for illegal drugs. Oh yeah, I forgot, same group blaming the guns on America also wants to legalize dope. Whatever.

Z

(This post was edited by Zarcero on Oct 29, 2009, 5:10 AM)

Manuel Dexterity

Oct 29, 2009, 7:30 AM

Post #24 of 28 (213 views)

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Re: [Zarcero] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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"Blame America First"!!! I like that. The standard line of the "My country, right or wrong, but my country first" reactionaries. How about just placing blame where blame is due and if that happens to be the USA ,well, you reap what you sow.

chinagringo

Oct 29, 2009, 8:22 AM

Post #25 of 28 (197 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border

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Rather than get into this "country right or wrong discussion" - here is a somewhat positive article on apparent progress that I wasn't aware of:
http://www.usatoday.com/...raining_N.htm?csp=34
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

(This post was edited by Rolly on Oct 29, 2009, 8:32 AM)

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