Grenades

Grenades

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How many times have we read denials from Gringos during weapons discussions that grenades are not coming into Mexico from the US? After all grenades are not legal in the US! According to the following story, it appears that grenades are in fact being brought into Mexico from the US:
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/...ed-on-us-mexico.html
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

Apr 13, 2011, 8:33 AM

Post #2 of 26 (2095 views)

Re: [chinagringo] Grenades

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These were unarmed PRACTICE grenades. And IF they really came over the fence and is not a staged propaganda stunt then they didn't grow in the desert. Trace them to their actual source.

Rolly

Apr 13, 2011, 8:40 AM

Post #3 of 26 (2087 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Grenades

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The article also states: "Practice grenades can be re-armed and converted into live grenades according to various internet sources."

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook

Apr 13, 2011, 9:21 AM

Post #4 of 26 (2056 views)

Re: [Rolly] Grenades

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Well if it's on the internet it must be true! Those vague unspecified internet "sources" are never wrong. Just do a little machining to the body to add threads to the untapped plug holes and insert explosives and viola!

joaquinx

Apr 13, 2011, 10:31 AM

Post #5 of 26 (2037 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Grenades

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You don't have to do that. The practice grenades have a hole in the bottom so you can stuff them with C4 or gunpowder. It's the fuse that's the important item. Without that you have a hunk of iron that can hurt someone if you hit them in their head. Perhaps they do get real grenades from Nicaragua - leftovers from the old Iran-Contra affair.

Apr 13, 2011, 11:21 AM

Post #6 of 26 (2022 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Grenades

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In Reply To

Yep, cartels that possess billions and billions of dollars would certainly find it difficult to hire an explosives expert and machinists with well equipped machine shops. Like tapping holes in metal is complicated. Can anyone say "ninth grade shop class"?

And this skepticism (denial?) is from the poster who made the wild claim that firearms from places such as Russia and China didn't have serial numbers in a very lame attempt at defending his beloved homeland from any wrong doing.

USA uber alles!.

yawn.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

turnabout

Apr 13, 2011, 12:46 PM

Post #7 of 26 (1995 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Grenades

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Amazing! I think this everytime I read your propaganda on how the USA is never at fault. Wake up and smell the coffee.

donemry

Apr 13, 2011, 12:53 PM

Post #8 of 26 (1993 views)

Re: [Bennie García] Grenades

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Bennie,

One could also surmise that the billions of dollars of cartel money would also buy complete grenades or any other armaments they desire. The world is awash with weapons manufactured in many different countries.

I am puzzled as to why you blame the US as a whole for these weapons. Are you suggesting that the US government, as the representative of the whole, is selling weapons to the cartels?

As the cartels are criminals breaking the laws of Mexico, those who supply them with weapons are also criminals breaking the laws of their country as well as those of Mexico. Yet, you continue to attribute these illegal activities to the entire citizenry of the US. I suggest that you are unfairly demeaning the honest citizens of the US.

An honest citizen.

stevebrtx

Apr 13, 2011, 1:22 PM

Post #9 of 26 (1981 views)

Re: [donemry] Grenades

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Let's put it on a bumper sticker. I buy a gun in Texas legally, background checks etc. I go out and shoot someone point blank. Who broke the law? The gun manufacturer, the store that legally sold it to me, the shooter (me) or the gun that was at the wrong place at the wrong time?
www.chapalaweather.net

eyePad

Apr 13, 2011, 2:00 PM

Post #10 of 26 (1971 views)

Re: [stevebrtx] Grenades

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The gun

joaquinx

Apr 13, 2011, 2:39 PM

Post #11 of 26 (1960 views)

Re: [stevebrtx] Grenades

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In Reply To

I buy a gun in Texas legally, background checks etc. I go out and shoot someone point blank. Who broke the law? The gun manufacturer, the store that legally sold it to me, the shooter (me) or the gun that was at the wrong place at the wrong time?

Hypothetically thinking! Someone always comes up with one of these. Someone asked me when I said that I was against capital punishment what I would do if someone raped my mother. I told him that since it was he that did the crime that I would seek his death in court. He replied that he was speaking hypothetically and that he would never do that. I told him that I was also speaking hypothetically.

So what would you have done if you had no gun? Back to your initial question: who is guilty? Probably the psychiatrist who said that you were sane, but I'm only speaking hypothetically.

stevebrtx

Apr 13, 2011, 2:52 PM

Post #12 of 26 (1948 views)

Re: [joaquinx] Grenades

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We can twist and turn it any way we want, but the guy that does the crime does the time, not the gun/knife etc, not the store that sells it or the mfg.

But, the US is still to blame - right?

A few years ago in Austin smoke from the burning fields in MX was being blown into Centex causing air pollution alerts. The satellite photos were without question, but Austin was charged with "bad air days" which ultimately not only costs residents money but other things as well. So, why didn't the TX Air Quality folks go after MX, the obvious offender? - maybe because it was easier to blame Austin for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. You don't suppose it's easier to blame the US for everything and walk away hands in pocket do you?
www.chapalaweather.net

turnabout

Apr 13, 2011, 2:53 PM

Post #13 of 26 (1947 views)

Re: [donemry] Grenades

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Maybe you did not hear about the ATF allowing 2500+ weapons to cross into Mexico. Maybe they did not make money on the deal (besides taxes) maybe we will never know but in doing so they broke US laws. Buying drugs, selling guns....same old story.
As far as blaming all of the USA, what about blaming all of Mexico for a problem they did not manufactor? Turnabout is fair play I would say.

Apr 13, 2011, 4:35 PM

Post #14 of 26 (1921 views)

Re: [Bennie García] Grenades

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The USA constantly claims that Mexico i.e. the Mexican government is not doing enough to stop the flow of illegal drugs or illegal immigrants from entering the USA. Well, the last time I looked it isn't against the law for a Mexican citizen to leave this country. So if that person enters the USA, the crime wasa commited on US soil. Afterall, they haven't violated any Mexican laws.

So if we apply the same logic that the uberpatriots want to apply to gun running in the US, how or why should the government here shoulder any blame for something that tales place in American territory? Where does Mexico hold any blame when illegal drugs cross the border? Shouldn't the Mexican government be solely concerned with the drug problem within its own borders? The US is responsible for what comes into its own territory, not Mexico.

(This post was edited by Bennie García on Apr 13, 2011, 4:39 PM)

chinagringo

Apr 13, 2011, 4:43 PM

Post #15 of 26 (1918 views)

Re: [turnabout] Grenades

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My original intent of making this posting was not to blame the US but rather to point out the reality of this issue with weapons of all types getting across the border. I have no doubt that a majority of the grenades coming into Mexico come either through the southern border or by boat through Mexico's ports. All I am saying is that when there is a demand, then sourcing can get quite creative and that the "head in the sand denials" because grenades are not legal in the US are pure BS!

I am reminded of a customer that I had many years ago in Tucson, AZ. To all outward appearances, he had a shop which sold an eclectic mix - waterbeds, blown glass and backpacking/mountaineering gear. During our very first meeting over lunch, I quizzed him about the unusual mix. At that point, he volunteered that none of the above were his real business. Upon our return from lunch, he took me into his special back room to show me the "real business" - machine guns, automatic weapons, grenades and pistols. Being naive, I asked who his customers were? Drug gangs and importers! This was in 1972 and the reality is that this has been going on for some time. This morning, I was reading the local news from our former hick town on the Oregon Coast. A former law enforcement officer from AZ had just been arrested for domestic violence but when they searched his home, they found a weapons workshop where he was modifying legal assault weapons to fully automatic. With a cash only bail of $1M, I can probably safely conclude that they have a clue as to who he was supplying. May not have been headed SOB but the Cartels certainly have a presence in Oregon.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

Apr 13, 2011, 5:06 PM

Post #16 of 26 (1911 views)

Re: [joaquinx] Grenades

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"You don't have to do that. The practice grenades have a hole in the bottom so you can stuff them with C4 or gunpowder."

Yes, the whole is untapped and needs to be tapped to screw in a plug.

"Yep, cartels that possess billions and billions of dollars would certainly find it difficult to hire an explosives expert and machinists with well equipped machine shops."

Cartels with billions of dollars could manufacture the grenades entirely.

"My original intent of making this posting was not to blame the US but rather to point out the reality of this issue with weapons of all types getting across the border. I have no doubt that a majority of the grenades coming into Mexico come either through the southern border or by boat through Mexico's ports."

If that disclaimer had been in post #1 I would not have taken any issue with you. There's a whole lot of bad going down on all sides. My issue is with those who ignore scale, who will for example respond to 3000 cops killed in Mexico with a story of two cops killed in Florida and conclude "cops killed in Mexico, cops killed in USA, therefore Mexico = USA".

"I think this everytime I read your propaganda on how the USA is never at fault."

That's interesting as the only time you ever hear from me on this is IN RESPONSE to someone blaming USA. I don't go around starting threads on these issues although I do recall starting one thread about Prop 19 results. And I know I never said the USA is never at fault.

Apr 13, 2011, 5:36 PM

Post #17 of 26 (1893 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Grenades

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In Reply To

Cartels with billions of dollars could manufacture the grenades entirely.

Sure they could. But why bother if it is easier to just buy them?

As far as modifying weapons, it looks like they are getting expert help from deep in the heart of the USA.

http://www.bizjournals.com/...ccuses-sabre-of.html

(This post was edited by Bennie García on Apr 13, 2011, 5:37 PM)

stevebrtx

Apr 13, 2011, 7:12 PM

Post #18 of 26 (1861 views)

Re: [Bennie García] Grenades

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You are correct in both questions, the answer to both is to slam the border closed and filter anything that moves either direction, I've said it before, anyone to the very highest level in the US government should be prosecuted for the ATF disaster just as anyone entering the US should be prosecuted. Lady justice holds a scale and a sword and is blindfolded for a reason, in for a penny, in for a pound.

To be honest all the police and military in the world won't stop this problem, it's societal and only when enough people have died, enough lives are ruined will society itself cure the problem, or if not, society will cease to exist.
www.chapalaweather.net

richmx2

Apr 13, 2011, 8:12 PM

Post #19 of 26 (1840 views)

Re: [donemry] Grenades

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I am puzzled as to why you blame the US as a whole for these weapons. Are you suggesting that the US government, as the representative of the whole, is selling weapons to the cartels?

I am puzzled why anyone blames Mexico for the U.S. addiction to narcotics. Are they suggesting that the Mexican government, as the representative of the whole, is selling narcotics to willing buyers?

No, not all hand grenades come from the United States, nor all firearms... but a goodly percentage of them do (and you don't hear much about hand grenades being used near the Guatemalan border, do you? ), and the U.S. — being in collective denial about its addiction, and seeking to blame others, is going out of its way to evade responsibility.

Interesting, that the Mexican Human Rights Commission made front page news in every national paper this morning for pointing out that the government is responsible for security (or lack thereof). Is it unreasonable for us to tag the U.S. government with providing security for its own people, but failing miserably to control the weaponry that is used to support its addict population.

Don't give me the usual garbage about how one should just legalize narcotics. Fine and dandy, but until the U.S. does, every user in the United States is complicit in the deaths in this country. That the U.S. government is unwilling to do a damn thing about it makes them — as representative of the whole — absolutely responsible.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

norteño

Apr 13, 2011, 10:18 PM

Post #20 of 26 (1815 views)

Re: [richmx2] Grenades

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No, not all hand grenades come from the United States, nor all firearms... but a goodly percentage of them do (and you don't hear much about hand grenades being used near the Guatemalan border, do you? )

If you bother to research news articles you'll find plenty of such cases, and also stories like this about 500 grenades being seized in Guatemala from a former guerrilla stockpile that were to be smuggled to Mexico:

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/586999.html

richmx2

Apr 13, 2011, 10:50 PM

Post #21 of 26 (1809 views)

Re: [norteño] Grenades

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A "goodly number" does not mean firearms and grenades are NOT coming from Guatemala, and the Guatemalans complain about Mexican narcos in their country, but I believe we were talking about U.S. sourced weaponry. The "mommy, they do it tooooo!" excuse is pathetic enough coming from a three year old child. If this is the official U.S. government position, it's downright embarrassing.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

donemry

Apr 14, 2011, 5:46 AM

Post #22 of 26 (1782 views)

Re: [richmx2] Grenades

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RichMx and Bennie,

My comments are directly in response to you. I, as an individual, have not, nor will not, blame "Mexico" for the cartels. The cartels are criminals under Mexican law at a minimum. Yet you and others continue to blame the entire USA, its citizens and governments for the illegal actions of criminals.

The US is not and individual or an amorphous entity, even the government of the US is not an single individual but is composed of many individuals of diverse opinions scattered amongst layers of seemingly innumerable agencies.

Amongst the some 2,000,000 employees of the Federal government, policies and regulations are implemented unevenly and often subject to political winds.

To ascribe some anthropomorphic cognizance to the US and its citizens as if they were a single entity lacks intellectual integrity.

Apr 14, 2011, 6:05 AM

Post #23 of 26 (1775 views)

Re: [donemry] Grenades

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In Reply To

Calm down, bubba. But there is plenty of blame to be shared between the "governments" and the citizenry. Organizations such as the NRA, which have a very large membership and is extremely influential in gun control policy play a large role.

There was the case of the corrupt pols in Columbus, New Mexico acting as straw men for cartel arms purchases. I linked to a corporation that has contracts with the Defense Department that was illegally exporting arms.

The thing is the USA has always been a "wants its cake and eat it to" kind of place.

In Reply To

To ascribe some anthropomorphic cognizance to the US and its citizens as if they were a single entity lacks intellectual integrity.

I don't know about my intellectual integrity but I am certainly not smart enough to use or let alone understand "anthropomorphic cognizance".

Apr 15, 2011, 12:36 PM

Post #24 of 26 (1646 views)

Re: [Bennie García] Grenades

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"There was the case of the corrupt pols in Columbus, New Mexico acting as straw men for cartel arms purchases. I linked to a corporation that has contracts with the Defense Department that was illegally exporting arms."

And where are they now? In jail. And I predict they will be convicted and not released for "lack of evidence" in 60 days. Unlike the 35 pols arrested in Michoacan.

When Mexico really wants to be sure someone is convicted and actually stays in jail, they send them to the U.S. It seems like every day for the past 2 years I've been hearing how Mexico has arrested a bunch of cartel members and leaders, I'm still waiting for a story on any of them being convicted. Not that it would matter when the prison warden hands them guns and lets them out at night to kill some more, or lets the cartels bring in buses to take them back.

Altahabana

Apr 15, 2011, 3:48 PM

Post #25 of 26 (1608 views)