Mexico Connect
Forums > General > General Forum
 


TomG

Sep 27, 2003, 8:57 PM

Post #1 of 13 (1490 views)

Shortcut

Ejido & Property

Can't Post | Private Reply
My son-in-laws uncle from Penjamo, GTO was telling me today at a wedding that anyone, including extraneros, can buy Ejido land , and sell it. And that this law has been in effect for 9 years. I forgot to pin him down on whether that made it propiedad.

Anyone have any experience?



shoe


Sep 28, 2003, 8:22 AM

Post #2 of 13 (1462 views)

Shortcut

Re: [TomG] Ejido & Property

Can't Post | Private Reply
There is an excellent thread on buying property in Mexico on the Tepic and Nayarit board: http://www.members4.boardhost.com/Nayarit/ posted on Sept. 15 of this year. Now as a newbie I don't understand some of it but it looks pretty good to me. Plus I am not buying so I didn't pay that much attention to some of it. It is titled "Buying in Tepic" but in there is all sorts of information about buying in Mexico, period not just Tepic. Looks like a lawyer/realtor put it together as the "Information provided by Dennis Peyton of Peyton, Amador & Connell. " statement sounded like it.

Hope this helps you some.

shoe

Nothing is intrinsically good or evil, but its manner of usage may make it so.
-St. Thomas Aquinas


Marlene


Sep 28, 2003, 1:19 PM

Post #3 of 13 (1433 views)

Shortcut

Re: [TomG] Ejido & Property

Can't Post | Private Reply
I seem to recall an informative thread here some time ago on the topic of Ejido land. While I have no personal experience (and no desire to) I have heard more than a few horror stories. Two words - BE CAREFUL. See if a search of this forum dredges up the thread. Good luck.


TomG

Sep 29, 2003, 8:15 PM

Post #4 of 13 (1381 views)

Shortcut

Re: [TomG] Ejido & Property

Can't Post | Private Reply
Calixto and Nacho were by visiting tonight, I asked them and they said the same exact thing - anyone can. There seems to be a real disparately between what Mexicans and gringos think about whether one can safely buy and sell. I remember asking 2 different farmers in 2 different areas over the last year or so, and got the same answer. One was the father of a close friend and would not lead me astray intentionally. Of course, none of these folks are lawyers.






jrice

Sep 30, 2003, 7:03 PM

Post #5 of 13 (1326 views)

Shortcut

Re: [TomG] Ejido & Property

Can't Post | Private Reply
In order for eijdos to sell their property, there has to be a meeting of the entire ejido (or at least a serious quorum) which approves the idea and -- I suspect at least -- legally registers it. This under an early-90s reform. A lot of people have an overly broad idea of how easy this is because it was such a dramatic change.

I would make sure that there has been such a meeting and that it was legally recognized. And that the person selling the parcel actually is the ejidatario registered to have possession.

Another complication is the Ensenada case: there was a dispute over ownership between an ejido and private property owners. It turned out the private property owners were upheld -- and the people who had purchased from the eijido were, as they say in the states, and who had constructed some pretty nice houses, dispossessed.

And then you have communal property, which is a wholly different legal catagory which tends to apply to age-old indigenous communities. It is much, much harder to buy that legally. Parts of Cuernavaca, and Me3xico City, are real estate quicksand because of that. A brother in law of mine got burned in a major housing development in Cuernavaca which turned out to be communal.

In any and all cases, you absolutely must nose around about the history of the property. Mexico has a very long history and property decrees or claims were not always coherent from age to age -- but often came back to bite. Mexico's federal government has been trying to settle land disputes for many decades.


Rolly


Sep 30, 2003, 8:17 PM

Post #6 of 13 (1314 views)

Shortcut

Re: [TomG] Ejido & Property

Can't Post | Private Reply
Tom, I don't mean this to be rude, it's just that I have read so many stories of people having major problems with ejido land that the thought that always pops into my mind is the old saw about fools rushing in where angles fear to tread.

Do be careful.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook


TomG

Oct 13, 2003, 9:16 AM

Post #7 of 13 (1267 views)

Shortcut

Re: [jrice] Ejido & Property

Can't Post | Private Reply
I am quoting heavily from a very good L A Times article so as not to bum up the interpretation.

It seems to flesh out what you said about the existence of another conflicting sort of pre-layer of communal ownership under a lot of ejido land.

The reforms seemed to have been an attempt to nudge urbanization and history in a favored direction. My opinion has always been that people are a lot more secure and better off being poor spread out on small plots than packed into cities totally dependent on a money economy. I don't think the reports are all in on this 100+ year long experiment. And at this point all the report makers have been residents of only one side of the equation. The belief on large agricultural efficiency is, in my opinion, a myoptic belief which receives much of its force from vested interest.

Anyway, back to real property legal issues, I think it is worth banking the most comprehensive information we can get - it is more valuable than fear for guidance.

------------------------------------------

http://www.latimes.com/...l=la-headlines-world

......At the heart of the matter is the tangled and contradictory state of Mexico's property ownership laws and record-keeping.

Only 18% of farm properties in Mexico have been definitively mapped, said Nabor Ojeda, a member of the Mexican Congress' agrarian reform commission, which mediates land disputes.

Rather than being surveyed and plotted, the boundaries of most Mexican properties are simply understood among neighbors. They can be defined on documents as being demarcated by the location of a boulder or tree that may no longer be there.

"These disputes are generations old, but they have never been adequately adjudicated. Typically they have been pushed back into the future and into the future. Now the future is here," said Kenneth Shwedel, head of food and agribusiness research at Rabobank in Mexico City. ....

.......Yet another major source of conflict are the 27,000 ejido gifts of land to peasant and indigenous communities by Mexican presidents from 1917 to 1992.

The 1917 Mexican Constitution created ejidos, which now cover more than half of Mexico's farmland, as the principal means of redistributing land that had been amassed by the wealthy. A stipulation was that recipients could not sell the property, only use it, because ejidos were still owned by the state.

Now many of those post-1917 ejidos are in conflict because Mexican presidents simply carved them out of "communal" properties, a separate and older land-ownership status typically conferred by the Spanish crown on Mexico's indigenous peoples. In many of those cases, the original communal or indigenous landowners are fighting for their land back.

That is behind a conflict over 13,000 acres called Bernalejo that straddles Zacatecas and Durango states in northwestern Mexico. This year, Durango's indigenous Tepehuana tribe recovered communal land that had been granted to a peasant group as an ejido in the 1950s — after hundreds of armed Tepehuanans forced 74 ejido families out of their homes at gunpoint. Women who had taken refuge in a church were told to leave or the church would be burned down.

"These agrarian conflicts inevitably become a political issue with a political solution that has nothing to do with the law," said Miguel Herrera, an assistant to the mayor of Valparaiso, a town near the disputed land.

A 1992 constitutional amendment in effect ended the ejido land-reform process. It also created new problems by allowing ejido members to sell their property, either as a whole or in part. These days, members frequently sue other members over how the once jointly owned lands were carved up and sold.

The 1992 amendment also created what was envisioned as an efficient dispute-resolution mechanism: an agrarian reform tribunal exclusively designated to hear and arbitrate cases like that of Agua Grande. But the cases move at a snail's pace. And even when the court makes a decision, enforcement is often held up by conflicting orders from other courts or because government officials are reluctant to enforce eviction orders.

In the case of Agua Grande, the tribunal decided in Ajusco's favor in 1997, but Xalatlaco later got an order from a federal judge suspending the decision's implementation. Both sides have asked President Vicente Fox to intervene, to no avail, and the issue remains in limbo.

Xalatlaco dismisses the tribunal's decision as a symptom of a "corrupt, mercantile" society. "Do you think a culture as ancient as ours is going to allow this invasion of our land just on the word of some judges who are in the pay of commercial interests?" Vargas said.

In Ajusco, community leaders say the tribunal's verdict was a triumph of justice, the recognition of a claim stretching back to 1531. "Each side showed their documents, and they lost. Now they are trying to enforce a right that is not theirs," said Julian Arenas, an Ajusco sheep and turkey farmer.

The landownership picture has been further clouded by presidential expropriations, which have wreaked legal havoc and bitterness. In 1997, President Ernesto Zedillo ordered that 7,000 acres near the port city of Guaymas in the state of Sonora be taken from communal holdings of the indigenous Yaqui community and made available for development.

The Yaquis have never accepted their loss and have repeatedly confronted the government by demonstrating and blocking highways, said Ana Maria Lopez, a researcher at the Postgraduate College in Chapingo, near Mexico City.

"I am not saying the government is bad, but it doesn't give any priority to the problems of our tribe. If it wants the indigenous to prosper, it must," said Rafael Perez, a Yaqui representative in Vicam, Sonora.

Then-President Carlos Salinas de Gortari thought the 1992 constitutional amendment, which he championed, would offer economic alternatives for poor rural farmers by permitting ejido members to sell their lands. Such sales would accelerate the consolidation of unproductive small farms into larger cooperatives with economies of scale, he contended, speeding investment in Mexican agriculture and helping farmers compete better with American agribusiness.

At the same time, the rural work force, then 25% of all Mexican earners, would flow into the cities, where its members could be more productive. Or so his reasoning went.

Things haven't worked out that way. The 1994-95 peso devaluation and the ensuing economic crisis killed the reform's underlying assumption that Mexico's economy would grow at such a high rate that hundreds of thousands of industrial jobs would be created for peasant farmers.

The massive investment in larger and more efficient Mexican farms that Salinas envisioned never materialized, owing to the lack of loans, unfavorable tax laws and the fact that the Mexican government didn't really promote the concept, said Rabobank's Shwedel.

"People are still stuck in their communities, and they can't sell out," said John Womack, a history professor at Harvard University. .......


Moisheh

Oct 13, 2003, 5:43 PM

Post #8 of 13 (1223 views)

Shortcut

Re: [TomG] Ejido & Property

Can't Post | Private Reply
Tom G : Are you suggesting that small scale farms (i acre or so) are better for the country than large efficient farms. How is Mexico to compete in the real world with little plots of corn and beans? Perhaps if they ripped up NAFTA and closed the border to all imported farm prodcucts. I await your explanation.


TomG

Oct 13, 2003, 10:30 PM

Post #9 of 13 (1201 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Moisheh] Ejido & Property

Can't Post | Private Reply
Explain. This is a big job. I’ll nibble at it. How much of this is true and how much is dream can’t be determined from where we stand. As a poet friend used to say, “When you are in a blizzard of _ _ _ _ , it is impossible to determine the source of it.” And believe me, with agribusiness and agri-politics we are in a blizzard.



American (and European) farming is heavily subsidized. The "efficiency of the USA farmers" is a agribusiness mantra – but not reality. The system is designed to give the populace cheap food no matter what the delayed costs might be. Combine this with free television programming (not really free either, it’s in the price of corn flakes) and you have got free bread and circuses.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/12/magazine/12WWLN.html



In the case of rice (my remembered figures, maybe worth checking), the market price is about $3/bu and the cost of production is $12/bu. The Federal Government pays the grower the difference of $9/bu in subsidy. In a real free market those guys would be flying the Hoover flags their first year. But every year both parties go into the game knowing almost to a quarter/bu what the outcome will be. The other grains are the same principle with varied numbers. Annual subsidies come to around 20 billion dollars. Then they turn around and preach free markets and efficiency to the 3rd world. Now if Mexico were to copy our modern efficient farm methods where would they, for starter, get the 20 billion annually for gifts to big factory farms? Therefore, chicken, eggs, pork, corn, wheat, and so forth are cheaper in the USA than Mexico. But wait, I got out of the store with the cheap chicken, but around April Fools Day the Federal Government wants tax money to give the forever-crowing-about-self-reliance-and-welfare-queens big farmer in amazing large numbered checks. Only small numbers seem to be subject to political criticism probably because they are more readily understood. Big numbers….well your mind just does not really believe it. This is what the failed Cancun meeting was about.



It’s a fools game, in my opinion. What we are doing is converting cheap crude oil into food product, using the farm as a medium. In the USA over 10 units of energy are expended to produce 1 unit of food energy in the consumer mouth. Only through political language conversion can this be called “the world’s most efficient farmer”. The land is rapidly being destroyed, people have been economically driven off the farms for over 50 years, and the survivors to date are large factory-like farm businesses. I think it was former Sec. of Agriculture Earl Butz who used to say, “Get big, or get out.” A lot of anti-communists politicians used to make a living criticizing Soviet factory farms, and championing the family farm in the USA. How much should I really care if Tenneco or the central government owns the big farm, and whether they have a “5 year plan” or a quarterly stock report plan. Neither one can bake a cherry pie like my grandmother could. The lesson from “Como Agua para Chocolate” is that in food love is the secret ingredient. Corporate farming will not plant, harvest, or process if there is no profit in it. And in sometime, at some crisis, there is likely to be such a condition without a federally guaranteed subsidy. A land-based self-sufficient farmer might plant, he’s got nothing much else to do.



Mexican little farmers still on the farm are not high-end horticulturalists, to say the least. But they do a good job of staying out of the way: they are not drug dealers in Nuevo Laredo, they are not crowding Mexico City, they are not in jail, and so on. We always talk about people being productive, but frankly, it is almost a meritorious achievement if someone can stay out of the way, take care of himself, and not be a problem. “Do no harm,” would that more could say that they did not.



That said, I am not impress with a Mexican farmer in the irrigated Bajio growing cash crop corn on his acre or two; and buying his coke, carne and chilis in town. When everyone in the village does the same thing (they do), then there is no fresh cabbage to slice over the pozole except to buy it in town. In actual application how that works is that his son in the USA sends back the money to go to the store. Then his son sends back money for a TV set and boom box, a new sofa, a used pickup truck to drive to the store in town, which needs gas, which needs more money, which then get one to the store more often, and so forth. That cabbage would grow 12 months a year back on the farm. And if he grew some extra, he could have traded them with a neighbor for his surplus chilis and then he ould have a true market of equals. I think that trying to play market with the big boys who make pickup trucks, and TV sets is going to leave him coming up short. And that’s the reason I don’t play the crap tables in Las Vegas – the house is set to win in more than 50% of the times.



Rene explains it this way: if his father grew a variety of foods, other people would come and help themselves. Apparently if everyone grows cash crop corn at the same time nobody will snitch some from him because.....for what, who needs it.



Mexican farmers can't compete and win in the real world, because it's not real. They have to find new way to play a different game, the tables are rigged in the present game, they can only loose. That's what I think......but I'm not an expert like Earl Butz was.


mcrown

Oct 14, 2003, 5:58 AM

Post #10 of 13 (1189 views)

Shortcut

Re: [TomG] Ejido & Property

Can't Post |
Excellent reply TomG, informative, enlightening and very well written.


Moisheh

Oct 14, 2003, 6:16 AM

Post #11 of 13 (1187 views)

Shortcut

Re: [TomG] Ejido & Property

Can't Post | Private Reply
Thank You Tom: Great explanation. However I doubt that anything will change in the USA. I am a Canadian and we have managed to live next door to the world's largest "not free trader". Mexico must do the same. The small family farm cannot work in a society where everyone watches American TV and crave all the typical goodies: cars, DVD players, microwaves, etc. As for the Mexican small scale farmers: most of them are either working in the USA or they come north to Sinaloa and Sonora to work the crops. Even though they are paid min. wages in Mexico, this paltry sum far exceeds waht they could earn on their own land. Adapt or perish


TomG

Oct 14, 2003, 6:44 AM

Post #12 of 13 (1183 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Moisheh] Ejido & Property

Can't Post | Private Reply

Code
The small family farm cannot work in a society where everyone watches American  
TV and crave all the typical goodies: cars, DVD players, microwaves, etc.



Good point. The role of the media in creating the illusions is central, and the power of their images are growing in skill to the point that few notice their degradation of content.

If you accept their point of view you have to buy the whole program.


TomG

Oct 18, 2003, 6:20 AM

Post #13 of 13 (1137 views)

Shortcut

Re: [jrice] Ejido & Property

Can't Post | Private Reply
A new USA-owner-of-Mexican-property problem worth posting, although the circumstances are unusual. Is there a reasonable Mexican point of view on this issue?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...43376-2003Oct17.html
 
 
 
Search for (advanced search) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.4