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mjr234

Oct 11, 2003, 6:18 AM

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Doe English Language Transfer Cultural Values?

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Jennifer: We have met very briefly during periods when my wife and I have been staying at le Casa Camelitas. I am invoking this minor familairity to pose you a somewhat unusual question. This is one I am seriously considering at this time, from the view point of academia. Does the English language, in and of itself, transfer cultural values? In Mexico, would this therefore be primarily [exclusively?] USA English values. An alternative for comparative purposes is the Indian sub-continent where British English values would have been transferred? I am leaving the question of where is Canada in this grouping until later.

Thank you for any time you can give to pondering the question.

Michael Ryan

Ottawa

(This post was edited by jennifer rose on Oct 11, 2003, 6:44 AM)

Adrian

Oct 11, 2003, 8:36 AM

Post #2 of 13 (1119 views)

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Re: [mjr234] Doe English Language Transfer Cultural Values?

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In Reply To

Does the English language, in and of itself, transfer cultural values?

Carol Schmidt

Oct 11, 2003, 11:06 AM

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Re: [mjr234] Doe English Language Transfer Cultural Values?

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I think so--our lack of politeness, our brusque demand for immediate attention to our problem and our presence, our neglect of the basic social graces in Mexico, can't help but to rub off on those Mexicans who want to emulate Americans in hopes of gaining our prosperity. By "our" I mean many U.S. citizens, not all--probably everyone who reads here is conscious of the subtleties of how we approach Mexicans in even minor social interactions.

Maybe it's more an attitude that is being conveyed rather than the English language itself. But language is more than just words, it is how they are used, the way they are put out into the world, which is the hard part about learning another language if you want to become fluent. If you want to come across as a fluent English-speaker, you probably want to not meet people in the eye, don't say hello to the person who is approaching you on the sidewalk (if you do you might be setting yourself up for a mugging if you appear friendly, i.e., vulnerable).

And of course the opposite is true: I have learned more about the Mexican culture from incorporating what I have learned about the meaning behind saying "Buenos Dias" to everyone I make eye contact with, recognizing them as human beings worthy of respect, than from the words themselves.

Just a few thoughts in a rush.

Carol Schmidt

Carol Schmidt

Oct 11, 2003, 1:37 PM

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Re: [mjr234] Doe English Language Transfer Cultural Values?

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Two hours later, more time:

I bet somebody has done a dissertation for a PhD in linguistics on this very topic.

I think that any exchange between two cultures will have a rubbing-off effect on both cultures. Languages are loaded with emotion and connotation, and how each culture views even common items will be reflected in the words (and attitudes when using the words) for those items.

What comes to mind first are the thousands of pet words of endearment many U.S. people use for their dogs and cats, indicating to anyone who eavesdrops that dogs and cats are highly valued in our culture (at least by many of us--there are still dog fights in the U.S.).

What next comes to mind is the oft-quoted fact that Inuits have dozens of words for snow, reflecting the importance the weather has to people in extremely cold climes.

I've heard that Mexicans use the word for fat in a very casual, non-judgmental way, butI wonder if that is changing as Mexicans become aware that obesity is becoming a major health threat to their citizenry too?

It's deeper than just language. I think the very presence of independent, strong, vocal, opinionated gringo women has to be working a change on Mexican culture, no matter what words are used. Not that there aren't subservient, quiet U.S. women who agree with everything anyone else says, but a large number of us contradict everything in macho culture just by the way we stand and our facial expressions. My hope is that women who have never seen that it is possible to resist macho culture will be influenced by us as role models. But then this is changing Mexican culture, and should we be doing that?

The question has been brought up in these forums: should gringas wear shorts in Mexico where the old traditions in Mexico are that women should not, even though some Mexican women in the younger generation are wearing shorts themselves now, too?

This question of the effects of any contact with a different culture has been primal in social anthropology--even studying the rain forest tribes has changed them as they see alternatives and intuitively pick up the new culture of the scientists. And then should we stop all intrusion into the rain forests just to allow tribes to go on marrying off children, beating women, killing women who are perceived as dishonoring their husbands' families by even flirting with other men, etc.

It is a major dilemma: the desire to keep endangered civilizations as they are even if that means their people die at an average age of 40 from medically unsound practices that could be easily changed. The desire to use the rain forests for development that could improve the living conditions of millions, even if that means 300 tribe members will have to leave their homes. The desire to preserve the rain forests when a native tribe is subsisting only by burning down acres upon acres.

This isn't what you asked, but the question of the interrelationships between two different cultures when they meet is extremely significant and complex.

Carol Schmidt

TomG

Oct 11, 2003, 2:29 PM

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Re: [mjr234] Doe English Language Transfer Cultural Values?

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Language puts a border around, or frames out, what is thinkable. It can't avoid that. Language has a lot of big communication shortcomings for this. It cannot express what is not in the vocabulary.

Any teenager knows that in holding hands more is communicated than could be done in a full day of blabber.

Political language usage makes clear that even among speakers from the same culture one word choice can means opposite things to different listeners. It is my opinion that the values of the speaker transfer with the language. What is intended by a word is totally and unconsicously controlled by the underlying assumptions that persons life is based on. The little pictogram in my head when I hear the word "house" is and entirely different pictogram than the one of an English speaker in Manhattan. The pictograms really didn't transfer with the sounds.

If I am in Mexico and speak English, and am overheard by Spanish speakers who don't understand, what is the possibility that some communication took place? I think there is some. Spanish speakers up here in the Midwest have a hard time speaking English even when they say the right word, because they can't make the expected sound for that word satisfactorily. I always draw a laugh when I tell them they have to talk like a dog if they want to speak English from the throat: "rough, tough, laugh, staff." They are not accustom to barking from there throat; conversely, we are not accustom to parking our tongues behind our upper front teeth. Marlene Dietrich could make German soft and tender with little purrs and growls, "J-J-J-J-Jonny!" The sounds themselves transfer values; you don't even need to understand the words. Back in 1970 my German art professor told me in a very lengthy private conversation that you did not need to understand German to understand Hitler’s speeches, the sounds went straight to the heart.

The Schwarttehager campaign is a watershed political event in the USA in this light. What was communicated were feelings separated from content, and the popular reception was beyond expectation. Politicians and planners are going to study him very carefully. The point is not political, it is merely to use popular examples to illustrate that values are communicated not only by language, but often by even more basic means hidden in the language. Actually, it is pretty hard not to communicate values, even it you keep your mouth shut. Wear a shirt you personally picked out at a store and you may be revealing more about yourself then you would ever care to communicate in conversation. Given the modern consumer range of choice and emphasis on individuality, you are likely engaging in a 3-D Rorschach test. In this sense, people in a highly prescribed culture, for instance tribal Maya women, would have more privacy of inner self. But the people of California just took a mass Rorschach test because it was a system of subjective choices.

The Mexicans absorbed the Spanish and survived, I think they will survive hidden language-value cultural influences. But I think they are more at risk from our agricultural policies, and economic practices. On the other hand will the USA survive uninfluenced from the mass immigration of Mexicans? One hundred and sixty years ago the force of human energy was with the European immigrants and Early white Americans who had expanding populations, a readiness to risk life to satisfy their basic worldly needs, a willingness to do hard risky work, and to endure length personal hardship. Look around now to see who might walk 1000 miles to feed his expanding family, and readily do dirty, hard, risky work – the more moreno the more likely this is the case. To be on the winning side of history being willing to endure hardship and having big families probably helps over the very long run. As a poet/mathematician in Guanajuato once told me, “the Indians won.”

raferguson

Oct 11, 2003, 7:36 PM

Post #6 of 13 (1042 views)

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Re: [mjr234] Does English Language Transfer Cultural Values?

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The short answer is yes. There is a phrase, "La Lingua es cultura", language is culture.

It is almost impossible to learn a language in a vacuum. You watch television, movies, listen to radio or music, or talk to a native speaker. You are absorbing the culture when you do that. Even if you do not know the language, you are absorbing parts of the culture, but somewhat diluted by subtitles or dubbing or lack of full understanding of the meaning.

Mexico has been influenced by the USA since it gained it's independence. Mexico has always been the weak country next to a strong one, and now next the world's only superpower. Also, most Mexicans have family in the USA. The USA influence in Mexico is very strong, regardless of language.

To what extent the influence is based on language vs. proximity, economic and political power, etc., is harder to prove. I can't imagine an experimental test to "prove" that language itself transfers cultural values.

By the way, the claim that the Eskimos have more words for snow than in English has apparently been examined by linguists, and found not to be true. (This topic has be discussed in detail on rec.skiing.backcountry.) It turns out that English has many words for snow, and that Inuit and English both have around 30 words for snow. It could be that if you are not a skier or do not live where it snows, you may not know all of those words, even in English.

Cultures always influence each other. Think of the Spanish words in English and the English words or cognates in Spanish and other languages. Even the French use quite a few English words.

In most parts of the world, the culture associated with the English language is USA, partly due to American Movies, and also the superpower status of the USA. In Europe, it is a mix of the USA and the UK.

Apparently some linguists have made a study of English as spoken to non-native English speakers to each other. For example, someone from Finland talking to a Japanese in English. The language is naturally simpler than when a native speaker is involved. The Finn and the Japanese may have only learned enough English for functional conversations in a limited area of discussion, but discuss they can. Is American culture involved in that discussion? Probably not, but surely the Finn and the Japanese learned from American culture in learning the language.

There is also the issue of the common culture of the English-speaking countries. I understand that English speaking countries (admittedly ex colonies) have much more mature democracies, on average, than in countries where other languages are spoken, thanks to English culture and history. It was amusing to discuss democracy with a Spaniard, where democracy has only existed for a single generation. For example, can you name an English-speaking country that is a dictatorship? Perhaps in sub-Saharan Africa, a region with special and severe problems.

I think that language transmits culture, simply because you cannot study a language without also learning something about the culture.

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

jrice

Oct 11, 2003, 8:27 PM

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Re: [TomG] Doe English Language Transfer Cultural Values?

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An excellent message.
All language -- on all sides -- sends a message. Those messages are a lot more complex than people often think. And the context s far more complex itself.

The reception of the language tells us as much as the language itself, because the interpretation of expression is just as much a cultural matter as is the expression. It's interesting and useful to consider all of that.

On the other hand, we can get bogged down in textual and contextual analysis.

A lot of it is a sort of high-falutin', perhaps deviously complex version of a very simple old concept. The the do unto others as you would have them do unto you stuff -- banal as that may be -- will usually buy a person a fairly decent life at a fairly decent price.

TomG

Oct 11, 2003, 11:22 PM

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Re: [jrice] Doe English Language Transfer Cultural Values?

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Back when they gave out demerits for having buffalo dung on your arrows, I was in the service in New Mexico. I marveled at with how the local Mexican girls could see right through educated young lieutenants and beat them at their own game right in the Officer's Club - their home court. The guys were secure thinking that the only cards they were showing were the words they said; the girls’ advantage was that they hardly listened, they were watching the alma.

"do unto others as you would have them do unto you ....will usually buy a person a fairly decent life at a fairly decent price."

I thought it was worth framing. Sounds like a Vermontism. It's so straight forward that it is is disarming in our modern context.

Georgia

Oct 12, 2003, 10:20 AM

Post #9 of 13 (989 views)

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Re: [mjr234] An example

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Right on the surface of the language (Spanish) is an example of a cultural value that is not -- any longer -- present in the English language: the use of tu vs. usted. The nuanced use of this pronoun speaks volumes as does the absence of the choice in English.

Oh, I do miss the days when my children called me "Su merced" (in Colombia). Now, well, I'm not sure what they call me! (Usually, "mommmmm..." with a touch of intolerance) They certainly lost the values that the language bespoke when we came to the United States.

believer111

Oct 13, 2003, 2:52 PM

Post #10 of 13 (948 views)

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Re: [mjr234] Doe English Language Transfer Cultural Values?

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Culteral values and personal (cultural) values are expressed and exposed through language. Spoken language, personal vocabulary, and intonation express who one is and 'where one comes from'....not only the region, but the type of family, upbringing, and/or education one has, or wishes to achieve or associate with. Thus, the transfer of cultural values occurs with vocabulary and communication.

this is brief, but comprehensible, verdad?

Dios le bendiga.

Dios le bendiga,
hermana greta

juan david

Oct 13, 2003, 5:55 PM

Post #11 of 13 (933 views)

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Re: [believer111] Doe English Language Transfer Cultural Values?

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I think you nailed it with few words. Bien hecho!
" let sleeping dogs lie"

mjr234

Oct 14, 2003, 5:45 PM

Post #12 of 13 (889 views)

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Re: [Carol Schmidt] Doe English Language Transfer Cultural Values?

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One of the texts I read today indicated that the most virilent form of anti-Americanism, is that Americans employ on themselves. In this instance the text aligns rather nicely with your argument. Another text said we may look at the USA [I have difficulty using America as a straight substitute] as the post-indutrial world. Jobs are transitory, though the need for one is not. Your co-workers, neighbours and the loss of available network of suppports in the extended family, health system and social milieu are all based on this ongoing hunt for work. Europe, Canada and Mexico etc are going to have to adapt to these post-industrial values. We will be dis-oriented, tired, alone, afraid [it continues in this rather grim tone] as befits post-industrial society. The fact that it is the USA that got there first is, just that, a fact. But is is simply a post-industrial fact and not one that was ingrained in the earlier cultural values. As I read it, the need for work was simply stronger and folks in the USA are often too tired to do much more than watch TV after a long day. I am only paraphrasing what I read: Does this seem possible? We are too busy and too tired to do other then allow amusement and entertainment to be delivered and no longer know how to create our own fun? I often think of fun as a cultural byproduct. Phew. A warning to learn from the USA how much and how far you want to go down the road of developemnt.

Thank you for your reply, I very much enjoyed it.

TomG

Oct 14, 2003, 7:19 PM

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Re: [mjr234] Doe English Language Transfer Cultural Values?

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An October article in a scientific (social science article in the this case) had to do with the attempt to measure happiness. They have been doing it for about 20 years.

This years results had Mexico in the number 2 spot in the world on the happines index, USA was 16. All of west Europe in down there with the USA except one Scandanavian country. An interesting finding was that in 20 years they have found no correlation between increased financial success and happiness. Over the 20 years the USA has increased financial success, but happiness didn't budge.

The article was traced from the News section here on Mexconnect.