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Tapatio

Dec 19, 2002, 8:32 PM

Post #1 of 23 (1891 views)

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Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

Hi

I'd like some help on some clarifications about dual citizenship in Mexico. First, I'd like to explain that I am American by birth. My parents are from Jalisco and I love it there. Recently, a friend of mine who was also born in the US started the process to acquire dual citizenship. He claims that this way, he'll have an easier time purchasing real estate or starting a business in Mexico. Does anyone know if this is true? I tried looking up info about dual citizenships in Mexico and found very vague information. Some of the info on the Mexican consulates web site even seemed to contradict itself. I don't want to have to rush through the process ( I understand that Jan 1, 2003 is the last day to apply) for nothing. Any info on this would be appreciated.

Muchas Gracias

Alfredo

Mereja

Dec 19, 2002, 9:41 PM

Post #2 of 23 (1793 views)

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Re: [Tapatio] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

What do you mean that January 1, 2003 is the last day to apply?

Mereja

Dec 20, 2002, 9:23 AM

Post #3 of 23 (1764 views)

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Re: [Tapatio] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

If you have dual citizenship you will have all the priviledges of Mexican citizens. If you do a search on this site there is some good information about this and some articles about the legal ramifications if you ever get into trouble in Mexico. I don't understand why you could only apply until January 31, 2003 unless you will be turning 18 or 21. I think I read somewhere that before, you had a certain amount of time to apply after your 18th birthday, but I could be wrong. I was planning on getting Mexican citizenship for my 2 year old who was born in the US, and so I don't understand how there could be a deadline to apply. I don't think he will loose his rights to become a Mexican citizen if we don't apply by January 31, 2003. Here is a site with information about this.

http://www.sre.gob.mx/..._nationality_law.htm

Look down the page some and it talks about someone born outside the US.

lin robinson

Dec 20, 2002, 11:44 AM

Post #4 of 23 (1752 views)

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Re: [Tapatio] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

Something to realize here: Mexico allows dual citizenship for citizens over 21, the U.S. does not. Obviously if you are a Mexican citizen you have more advantages in Mexico...never mind the dual business.
About the deadline, it sounds very suspicious...Mexico has always allowed hispanics of Mexican descent to reclaim citizenship. I hope you are not involved with some outfit trying to stampede you into using their services for this.

Brad.

Dec 20, 2002, 12:17 PM

Post #5 of 23 (1741 views)

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Re: [lin robinson] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

In Reply To

Something to realize here: Mexico allows dual citizenship for citizens over 21, the U.S. does not.

That is absolutely false. Dual citizenship is allowed in the USA and Mexico allows it from birth.

jennifer rose

Dec 20, 2002, 12:33 PM

Post #6 of 23 (1756 views)

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Re: [lin robinson] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

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What you've stated, Lin, is incorrect.

From the Secretaria de Relaciones Exteriores http://www.sre.gob.mx/...egal/nacionality.htm, the full scoop:

The legal tradition of our country had been to consider the Mexican nationality as the only permissible one. However, the National Development Plan 1995-2000 recognized the necessity of endowing those Mexicans who reside abroad with an additional instrument of proteccion. It proposed, therefore, the "Mexican Nation" draft. to promote the constitutional an legal reforms that would allow al Mexicans to preserve their nacionality, regardless of the citizenship they had adopted.

In compliance with the draft, articles 30, 32 and 37 of the Constitution of the United Mexican States were reformed on March 20, 1997. It was established that "No Mexican by birth can be deprived of his nationality", thus permitting, as a consequence of this measure, double or multiple nacionality.

Currently, there are millions of Mexicans who reside abroad and who have been unable to obtain the nationality of their country of residence, due to a real and binding tie with Mexico that cannot be simplified as merely sentimental. They cannot exercise the rights of a national in their country of residence, and are therefore in a vulnerable position. The reforms embodied in the "Mexican Nation" draft recognize and regulate this situation.

The constitutional reform, and the corresponding Law of Nationality, entered into force on March 20. The new nationality laws assure that, from that date forward, Mexicans do not lose their nationality by acquiring another. Those who have lost their Mexican nationality by voluntarily acquiring another can recuperate it while keeping the foreign nationality they acquired through naturalization.

The Mexican Foreign Affairs Ministry will issue, on request, a Declaration of Mexican nationality only to those people who can prove that they acquired another nationality previous to the reform, and who now wish to benefit from the reform which guarantees no loss of the Mexican nationality acquired from birth. Those who don’t prove that they voluntarily obtained another nationality will be automatically granted treatment as Mexicans.

In order to benefit from the law of no loss of nationality, the interested individuals must fulfill the requirements established by the Law of Nationality. The most essential requirement is to prove to the authorities the right to claim Mexican nationality, between March 20, 1998 and March 20, 2003.

The Foreign Affairs Ministry will also issue a Certificate of Mexican Nationality on request, only and specifically for those individuals whose duties require that they be Mexican by birth, and that they not have acquired another nationality. The Constitution and the applicable laws will indicate under what circumstances the interested individual would be obligated to present said Certificate.

With this new set of laws, Mexicans who reside abroad and who acquire the nationality of their country of residence enjoy legal equality with the nationals of that country. At the same time, these individuals are entitled to all the benefits that the Mexican Constitution and the law bestow upon Mexicans by birth. Therefore, regardless of whether they are in national territory or abroad, the Mexican State considers them to be Mexican Nationals.

TOP

Mereja

Dec 20, 2002, 3:12 PM

Post #7 of 23 (1716 views)

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Re: [Tapatio] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

The date of January 31, 2003 is for people who lost their Mexican citizenship when they became US citizens before 1997. They have until that date to reclaim their Mexican citizenship. See this article below.

http://www.thenewsmexico.com/noticia.asp?id=42365

(This post was edited by Mereja on Dec 20, 2002, 6:14 PM)

lin robinson

Dec 20, 2002, 3:51 PM

Post #8 of 23 (1726 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

Sorry, but I think what I stated was not false, but misunderstood, especially considering that you cite Mexican, not American law. What I said was that Mexico allows dual citizenship, but the U.S. does not. Mexican law doesn't affect that. The reason I mentioned over 21 is that the U.S. DOES allow dual citizenship until that age, as does Mexico. But, as I said, for persons of legal age there is no such thing under American law. (Unless that, like so many other things has changed).

Obviously anybody coming up to the majority would be wiser to choose U.S. citizenship, and then also be allowed Mexican citizenship by Mexico, than choosing Mexican citizenship, which would then deny them U.S. citizenship unless naturalized.

As I say, U.S. law might have changed, but there is nothing in Mexican law that affects what the U.S. has to say about its citizenship.

Dec 20, 2002, 3:57 PM

Post #9 of 23 (1720 views)

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Re: [lin robinson] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

I don't have the exact quote location, but under certain circumstances, the US DOES allow dual citizenship beyond 21. I know that there are situations with British Empire countries (including Ireland and Canada) where this applies. It also applies with the US and Mexico. I know this due to research done 3 years ago. As two US Citizens we had a child in Mexico, who by the constitutions of both countries is considered a citizen of both at birth. He does not have to choose one or the other at any point, according to the goverment documentation at the time (no, I did not rely on the rhetoric of government officials of either country, I made sure it was in official written documentation!!)

Actually, after a quick search of the topic, I do now have the link

http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html

This is from the US State Department Website:

"The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship. "

(This post was edited by LJ on Dec 20, 2002, 4:01 PM)

Brad.

Dec 20, 2002, 7:03 PM

Post #10 of 23 (1679 views)

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Re: [lin robinson] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

In Reply To

My kids were both born in Mexico which made them Mexican citizens and they were also US citizens at birth because of my US citizenship. At the time my oldest was born in 1984 Mexico did not allow dual status but the US did. I went through the bureaucratic bs to register their birth at the US Consulate, something that has become much easier since then.

Before the changes made here in 1998, a Mexican with dual or multiple citizenship by birth was allowed to retain them until 18 years of age. The reason being that each person had the right to make this decision as an adult and not have it made for them by someone else. On the first trip outside of Mexico they had to decide which citizenship they wished to keep. If it was the non-Mexican, they left the country for the last time as a Mexican and thereafter had to enter as a foreigner. If they were flying out, their Mexican passport was stamped "ultima salida" and confiscated. This info was given to me by the Consulate when they received their Consular Report of Birth Abroad aka Certificate of Birth Abroad.

The US has no age where anyone must pick and choose. My kids will keep their citizenship (their birth right and no different than if they had been born on US soil) for life unless they renounce it. It's been that way since 1984 and I've never heard of any US law that prohibits dual citizenship.
Here´s an example of the US point of view:

The Supreme Court of United States has stated that dual nationality is a "status long recognized in the law" and that "a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both. The mere fact that he asserts the rights of one citizenship does not without more mean that he renounces the other", Kawakita v. U.S., 717(1952).

United States law does not contain any provisions requiring U.S. citizens who are born with dual nationality or who acquire a second nationality at an early age to choose one nationality or the other when they become adults, Mandeli v. Acheson, 344 U.S. 133 (1952). The current nationality laws of the United States do not specifically refer to dual nationality.

(This post was edited by Brad Smith on Dec 20, 2002, 7:06 PM)

Rolly

Dec 20, 2002, 7:05 PM

Post #11 of 23 (1680 views)

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Re: [lin robinson] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

| Private Reply

Alfredo, go to your area Mexican Consulate and get the straight poop from the folks who really know what you need to do to claim your Mexican citizenship, and don't worry about your US citizenship. And, yes, being a Mexican citizen does have advantages if you wish to live in Mexico and/or own property here.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook

(This post was edited by Rolly on Dec 20, 2002, 7:07 PM)

CanMex

Dec 20, 2002, 7:12 PM

Post #12 of 23 (1672 views)

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Re: [lin robinson] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

Lin,

US, Canada and Mexico allow dual citizenship, it is an agreement. You could not have dual citizenship unless both countries involved agree.

What you cannot have dual is RESIDENCY of 2 countries at the same time. When you switch countries you have to meet the requirements of residency in the new country eventhough your a Citizen. Both are completely different.

The age part was before the law changed, if a minor was eligible for citenzenry in 2 countries he could not choose until he was major.

Luc

Brad.

Dec 20, 2002, 7:25 PM

Post #13 of 23 (1659 views)

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Re: [CanMex] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

In Reply To

US, Canada and Mexico allow dual citizenship, it is an agreement. You could not have dual citizenship unless both countries involved agree.

From: U.S. State Department

Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice.

CanMex

Dec 20, 2002, 7:41 PM

Post #14 of 23 (1653 views)

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Re: [Brad Smith] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

Brad,

If you have citizenship in 2 countries, and one of them does not allow dual citizenship, when you are being citizen of the one who allows dual citizenship, you would automatically lose citizenship in the country that does not, therefore no dual citizenship. Right

Luc

CanMex

Dec 20, 2002, 7:44 PM

Post #15 of 23 (1648 views)

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Re: [Brad Smith] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

Brad, further more Canada and US have an agreement on Social Security, and Mexico will shortly be following suit.

Brad.

Dec 20, 2002, 8:04 PM

Post #16 of 23 (1648 views)

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Re: [CanMex] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

In Reply To

Luc,

Maybe in some countries it is automatic but not in Mexico. You were allowed to choose. If one chose the non-Mexican citizenship, they would revoke their Mexican citizenship. This was done independently of any US (or any other country) law.

Social Security has nothing to do with citizenship.

(This post was edited by Brad Smith on Dec 20, 2002, 8:21 PM)

CanMex

Dec 20, 2002, 8:25 PM

Post #17 of 23 (1640 views)

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Re: [Brad Smith] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

Brad,

Apart from being born in a country (and you can't be born in 2) nothing is automatic, if your born from parents of a certain country you will have to apply to have your citizenship and you will have to carry a card proving that you are a citizen. And if you are born of only one parent from that country, things get more complicated.

You are the one that said: "due to laws, automatic citizenship"

As far as Social security I never said it had anything to do with citizenship, only added information, which would be appreciated by someone who as worked in the 2 countries.

Luc

(This post was edited by CanMex on Dec 20, 2002, 8:28 PM)

Brad.

Dec 20, 2002, 8:51 PM

Post #18 of 23 (1632 views)

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Re: [CanMex] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

In Reply To

You are the one that said: "due to laws, automatic citizenship"

Actually that was a quote from a website of the US State Department, the link was provided.

Not to be argumentative but my kids were automatically born both US citizens and Mexican citizens. They did not have to apply for either citizenship and they don't have to carry any card.

In their case I had to apply for a certificate that is used as proof of their American citizenship. They automatically had US citizenship just from being my children.

In Reply To

And if you are born of only one parent from that country, things get more complicated.

The kids' mother is Mexican and the only thing that that complicated was the paperwork needed for the certificate to be issued. I had to show proof that I met the residency requirements.

johnr

Dec 20, 2002, 9:49 PM

Post #19 of 23 (1631 views)

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Re: [Tapatio] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

There's a bit of confusion running through this thread, thanks largely to the inventiveness of bureaucrats.

Unless I'm mistaken, when we talk about recovering something, we are talking about double "nationality," which is defined by the law as something between being a foreigner and being a citizen.

That status of "nationality" gives a person a lot of rights in Mexico; unrestricted property ownership is one. But it does not grant voting rights, for example. And if you want to be a port captain, you're out of luck too.

I could be misundertainding what is being discussed here, but I strongly suspect that we're talking about the nationality reforms of recent years which went to some inventive detail to avoid the issue of dual citizenship by substituting the legal concept of dual nationality.

As for dual citizenship, it is very, very common to encounter U.S. dual citizens in many parts of the world. I recall watching a skirmish about a decade ago in the West Bank between Palestinian-Americans and Israeli-Americans fighting over a bit of Ramallah.

Cheers.

CanMex

Dec 21, 2002, 7:13 AM

Post #20 of 23 (1606 views)

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Re: [Brad Smith] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

Brad,

You are nit picking now, just for the sake of doing so.

You quoted:

"The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice."

But omitted the next sentence:

"For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth"

When taken as a whole, says what I said:

"Apart from being born in a country (and you can't be born in 2) nothing is automatic, if your born from parents of a certain country you will have to apply to have your citizenship and you will have to carry a card proving that you are a citizen. And if you are born of only one parent from that country, things get more complicated."

Then you say:

"Not to be argumentative but my kids were automatically born both US citizens and Mexican citizens. They did not have to apply for either citizenship and they don't have to carry any card.

In their case I had to apply for a certificate that is used as proof of their American citizenship. They automatically had US citizenship just from being my children."

What's the big frapping difference here? I say apply for citizenship - you say apply for certificate that is used as proof of their citizenship.

You say:

"The kids' mother is Mexican and the only thing that that complicated was the paperwork needed for the certificate to be issued. I had to show proof that I met the residency requirements.

I said: " And if you are born of only one parent from that country, things get more complicated."

As I said before both my sons where born in the US from two Canadian parents, been through the whole rigamorrow.

Card = certificate

Apply for citizenship = apply for proof of citizenship

Bla bla bla, what the hell, this is my final post on this matter.

Luc

scott

Dec 21, 2002, 12:13 PM

Post #21 of 23 (1579 views)

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Re: [CanMex] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

Apply for citizenship = apply for proof of citizenship

I don't think those two things are equal.

My mother had a birth right to New Zealand citizenship, but didn't apply for it until after my birth. Even though she had a birth right to it, by virtue of being born to a Kiwi mother, they did not consider her a citizen at the time of my own birth. Hence no dual citizenship for me, but for any future siblings there is.

I say apply for citizenship - you say apply for certificate that is used as proof of their citizenship.

In the former you are not technically a citizen until you apply. In the later you are technically a citizen but just can't exercise your rights until you have proof.

I know this is between Canada/New Zealand, and not Mexico, but it is how I see the difference between the terminology. My cousins in Mexico were born to my moms brother, who has full Canadian/NZ citizenship, one born in Canada one born in Mexico, both to a Mexican citizen mother. It'll be interesting to see if they walk away with three citizenships...

CanMex

Dec 21, 2002, 3:25 PM

Post #22 of 23 (1566 views)

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Re: [scott] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

I know I was not going to post on this matter again.

Scott, you are being as bad as Brad, you say:

"My mother had a birth right to New Zealand citizenship, but didn't apply for it until after my birth. Even though she had a birth right to it, by virtue of being born to a Kiwi mother, they did not consider her a citizen at the time of my own birth. "

To me that is applying for citizenship or is it? Birth right is not automatic citizenship is it?

You see that it is very easy to say something that is not lawyer exact, but then this is a forum and we are not lawyers, thank god.

Luc

scott

Dec 21, 2002, 3:49 PM

Post #23 of 23 (1566 views)

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Re: [CanMex] Doble ciudadania- Double citizenship?

s/apply/register/

To me birth right means that it is not automatic, because she was not technically a citizen, or else it would have been passed on to me. Birth right means that you have a right to the citizenship, but you are not technically a citizen until you apply or register, an application which they cannot deny if your papers are in order. And if you don't apply/register by a certain date, they can deny you the right to apply after a certain number of years. Thats the difference. In NZ in the past it was automatic, you were a citizen whether you registered or not. But now you have to register, and if you don't you loose the option after you turn 22 I think.

I don't know how this particularly relates to Canada/USA/Mexico, other than I find the whole topic very interesting in general. I really wish I had the finances to fight this distinction in court. I think that if you have a birth right to your citizenship, you should be considered a citizen even if you haven't sent away for a certificate. But alas, thats not how it works in some countries.....
You have no idea how badly I wish I had dual citizenship......