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salto_jorge

Jun 16, 2011, 2:20 PM

Post #1 of 23 (2539 views)

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CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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What can be done, we received a letter CFE and want to charge us a 5500 peso fine for power usage.

CFE claims that something was wired up in our side of the meter that caused the power usage to be lower then it was.

We have had the same meter installed on our home

I do not have any clue what they are are talking about. They are telling us that we should hav had an electrician check it out before we purchased our place.

Does anyone know what they are talking about or has anyone had to deal with them.

We went and talked to them and they will not back down on the 5500 peso bill or really explain anything to us about the cheating or wiring.

Any information is appreciated.

johanson

Jun 16, 2011, 3:29 PM

Post #2 of 23 (2507 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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Hey Salto:

You've got to tell us a lot more about what is happening. Like how many KWH per billing period and per the last 12 month period.

In my case, on the shores of Lake Chapala, my bill last August bill was almost exactly $5,500. Why did I pay so much? Because I used a lot of KWH, so many that was charged at the very expensive DAC (domestic high consumption) rate, and did not receive a government subsidy.

During the past months my consumption decreased to the point that I began to receive a government subsidy and paid only $0.719 pesos per KWH.

Were I to be a domestic high consumption user I would have to pay a monthly fee of $74.94 plus a fee of not 0.719 but $3.516 pesos per KWH

To these costs, one adds IVA or sales tax. (June CFE rates)

My total consumption during the last 2 months was only 102 KWH. At the lower tariff rate I only paid $85 pesos. Were I to have been charged at the higher DAC rate, I would have paid $590 pesos

Actually I use almost ten times that much, but I only purchase a small amount from the power company, because I have photo-voltaic solar panels

So maybe your rates just went up by perhaps 6 times because you were finally charged at the DAC rates

(This post was edited by johanson on Jun 16, 2011, 3:35 PM)

salto_jorge

Jun 16, 2011, 4:20 PM

Post #3 of 23 (2485 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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A few of my CFE Bills

Oct 2010 A Dic 2010: 59 dias .11 kw 82.26 pesos (house)
Oct 2010 A Dic 2010: 59 dias 0 kw 81.97 pesos (gate)

Dec 2010 A Feb 2011: 63 dias 42.20 pesos (gate)
Dec 2010 A Feb 2011: 63 dias 4kw 41.49 pesos (house)

Feb 2011 A Abril: 60 dias 0 kw 41.96 pesos (gate)
Feb 2011 A Abril: 60 dias 5.10 Kwh 426.75 (house)

The fine is on my house meter not gate meter

The bill increased a lot 10x dec compared to Feb, in 2010 the bill was all over from 81 to 500 pesos.
I think the meter was faulty for some reason.
I do not remember whan but back in 2009 we replaced the main feed from the meter to the house to correct low voltage issues we were having.

Could the electrician have done something so that we were paying less ?

The 240 line is split as two legs in our breaker box.

We have all Mexican appliances, Refrig/freezer, microwave, router, switch, TV, lights, Vonage, ups

(This post was edited by salto_jorge on Jun 16, 2011, 5:39 PM)

johanson

Jun 16, 2011, 4:49 PM

Post #4 of 23 (2480 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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Sorry, I didn't correctly read what you wrote. If I understand you correctly, CFE, is suggesting that you did something to your electric meter or after your meter to make it read less than what you really consumed. And they are fining you because of what they believe.

The amount of power you were consuming was shockingly low, and if your were living in this house during those previous months when you used so little. It would be normal to be suspicious that the meter was not properly reading your true consumption.

I own a medium size 2 Brm condo in downtown Seattle. When it's unoccupied and all that are on are a refrigerator, modem, router and and a satellite receiver, (not unplugged but turned off), and a couple of electric clocks, I usually consume maybe 350-400 KWH during a two month billing period

At 400 KWH in my area of Mexico, I would have paid 0.719 * 400 * 1.16= $334 pesos. So if your house was occupied, you had an electric refrigerator plus a light or two, you were being greatly under-billed.

Sadly, what I don't know is why or what you should do.

(This post was edited by johanson on Jun 16, 2011, 4:57 PM)

salto_jorge

Jun 16, 2011, 5:41 PM

Post #5 of 23 (2453 views)

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Re: [johanson] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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It is a two bedroom home and someone is always living there ( cats and dogs also )

johanson

Jun 16, 2011, 6:54 PM

Post #6 of 23 (2434 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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So it sounds like you were being greatly undercharged, and that CFE is trying to blaim you for whatever happened, you know trying to say you did something on purpose, and what ever happened to for example, the meter was not their fault. Maybe you should talk to the electrician who rewired your house, to see what he thinks and/or recommends you do.

good luck

Pete
"El ruco"

YucaLandia

Jun 17, 2011, 7:27 AM

Post #7 of 23 (2343 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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salto_jorge,
Johanson is correct. Your power usage is shockingly low for an occupied property. 200 kWhr per month (400 kWhr per billing cycle) would correspond to two people living with very low power usage, where 600 kWhr - 800kWhr per billing cycle would be more common for gringos. It's pretty clear that your 9.2 kWhr total usage for 6 months is roughly 1,200 kWhr - 1,800 kWhr lower than typical minimum gringo usage for computer(s), fridge, TV, router, UPS, Vonage, etc. Your extremely low usage would be completely explained by the jumper wire CFE found installed in your meter. Shunts like yours are often installed by electricians for gringos, but usually the electrician charges $3,000 pesos (or so) to install the cheat.

Using cool season rates, at $0.715 pesos per kWhr Basico rate, $0.861 pesos per kWhr Intermedio rate, and $2.45(?) pesos per kWhr Excedente rate - using 600 kWhr per two month billing cycle - you would owe:
$322 pesos for 6 months Basico (450 kWhr @ $0.7154 for 6 months)
$387 pesos for 6 months Intermedio (450 kWhr @ $0.861 for 6 months)
$1,470 pesos for 6 months Excedente (600 kWhr @ $2.45(?) for 6 months)
$2,180 pesos power usage total for 6 months cool season rates for only power (no taxes or subsidies)

$2,180 pesos power usage total for 6 months cool season rates
$350 pesos 16% IVA (I don't know your IVA?)
$125 pesos 5% DAP
$2,650 pesos Total with taxes and fees for 6 months of cool season (600 kWhr per 2 month billing cycle usage) w/o subsidies.

This 6 month figure does not include the "Aportacion Gubermental" subsidy (about 79% subsidy/reduction on the Basico & Intermedio power usage = an expected $1,700 peso govt. subsidy on the estimated $2,180 peso 6 month bill).

If we include the "Aportacion Gubermental" subsidy, the amounts drop to:
$1,620 pesos power usage total for 6 months cool season rates w/subsidy
$260 pesos 16% IVA (I don't know your IVA?)
$95 pesos 5% DAP
$1,975 pesos Total with taxes and fees with subsidies for 6 months of cool season (600 kWhr per 2 month billing cycle usage)

How long have you owned the home? You mentioned 2009 as a date when the electrician likely installed the cheater/shunt wire. This would mean that without the subsidy, you could have expected $10,600 pesos of electricity normally billed without the government subsidy (since CFE may deny the subsidy to cheaters?). If you received the subsidy, you could have owed $7,900 pesos since mid 2009.

By both of these crude cost analyses, you seem to be ahead by at least $2,500 pesos from normal power usage since mid-2009 when your cheater-wire was installed vs. the $5,500 peso fine. If CFE disallows the Govt. subsidy, then you saved at least $5,000 pesos since mid-2009.

If you use more than 600 kWhr per 2 month billing cycle, your savings are even substantially larger.

Saving a minimum of an extra $2,500 pesos (or so) since the electrician installed the cheater shunt makes it seem like you are coming out ahead. Time to count your blessings?
steve
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E-visit at http://yucalandia.wordpress.com/

YucaLandia

Jun 17, 2011, 7:40 AM

Post #8 of 23 (2333 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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Notes on the previous calculations:
1. I used the current cool season CFE rates for simplicity.
2. I did not adjust for hot season lower rates and higher usages.
3. I did not adjust for past lower power rates (a small correction).
4. I assume that the owner uses no air conditioning, since moderate A/C use could put the owner into the very high DAC rate (850 kWhr avg) => much higher bills (10X?) and much much greater savings than the relatively small $5,500 fine.
5. I calculated savings back to just mid-2009 (24 months of billing = 12 billing cycles). If the cheater wire was installed before mid-2009, then the owner's savings are much larger.

I realize that many gringos think they are being ripped-off by non-routine things here in Mexico, but it seems that salto_jorge has come out smelling like a rose in this one.

The proof in the pudding will come when salto_jorge gets his first real power bill, showing the actual bi-monthly power consumption. Jorge, can you please tell us your actual power usage and real power cost when you get your first bill?
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.wordpress.com/

La Paz

Jun 17, 2011, 8:37 AM

Post #9 of 23 (2304 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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Salto, if I were in your position, I'd put my requests in writing, either mail them return receipt requested or personally deliver it to CFE & obtain signature of the person accepting the letter.

I'd ask:

What specifically was the device CFE claims to have found connected to my meter?
Where is that device right now?
How can CFE accuse me of something illegal without showing me any proof?
How did CFE calculate the $5,500 peso charge....based on what?

If CFE cannot or will not provide satisfactory responses to my concerns within the next 14-30 days (pick a time-frame that seems fair to you), I will be submitting a complaint, including copies of all written correspondence & notes documenting each verbal conversation with CFE to PROFECO (Mexican equivalent to Consumer Protection Agency) for mediated resolution.

That said, I agree totally with Johanson & Yucalandia that your stated usage was been unrealistically low for an occupied casa & in the overall scheme of things you could conceivably be getting off pretty light with the $5,500 peso adjustment. Additionally, the fact that you have two meters has been spreading the usage & keeping a greater quantity of usage in the lower tiers, resulting in greater overall savings as well.

I'm extremely conservative in my electrical usage (lights on only in the room I'm in, not outside lights on at all, chargers & small appliances unplugged when not in actual use, etc.) & my usage has been:

............... Feb ..... Abr ..... Jun ..... Ago ..... Oct ..... Dic
2010 ..... 648 ..... 653 .... 679 ..... 673 ..... 645 .... 643
2011 ..... 538 ..... 518 .... 585 ....

I attribute the drop in my usage in 2011 to my unplugging any & all devices practical when not in actual use.

I know there are illegal ways to reduce meter readings, I don't know any specifics of how they work. But I do feel the burden of proof should be with CFE to justify their findings....keeping in mind that further research on CFE's part could conceivably result in an even larger back-billing or fine. My objection is to CFE's "strong-arm tactics".

I'd start tracking my meter readings on a regular basis....including date & time & see how closely in sync they are with your future billings. Even better would be take pics of your meter showing dates for each pic. I'd arm myself with proof.

But my bottom line remains.....I believe you're getting off fairly easy.

Marlene

Jun 17, 2011, 9:43 AM

Post #10 of 23 (2288 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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The CFE conducts random inspections on meters. If something is out of order, there will be a problem. They are looking for what is known locally as a "Diablo". In years gone by it was not uncommon to have heavy use appliances (mostly air conditioners here) rigged up to bypass the meter. We have encountered this accidentally, twice, when air conditioners went on the fritz in rental homes. The electricians explained what was happening; "there is a Diablo causing the problem", and it was rectified quickly, by rewiring properly to the meter.

We have personally experienced an inspection, when CFE came calling and put us through the test. My husband went outside and watched them, so I'm not sure what they did, exactly, but it took place at the meter. The test took a few minutes and we were asked to leave a/c's running. One of them commented that if they were still running after the shutdown at the meter, then someone would have some 'splainin to do re 'theft of services'.

We got the feeling that they would have gone ahead with the test, after hearing the a/c's operating, even if we hadn't answered the door. They did inquire if there was a computer operating in the house, to give us the chance to shut it down properly. Everything checked out okay, and they moved along, but the guy did say this is a big problem, and new owners may not be aware until something goes wrong or they get caught. If anyone has any doubt, it would be worth the peace of mind to hire a good electrician to check things out. I don't think CFE is big on explanations, if they find something out of order. Their tact is usually 'pay up, or live without electricity'.

(This post was edited by Marlene on Jun 17, 2011, 9:59 AM)

NEOhio1

Jun 17, 2011, 9:47 AM

Post #11 of 23 (2284 views)

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Re: [La Paz] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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Last person I know in Ajijic who had a shunt discovered on not only the main house meter but the casita meter and the third meter for their pool received an 85,000 peso bill from CFE and visit from a CFE suit executive type to collect it. When they objected to the bill the CFE took the meters, talked to their neighbors to make sure they didn't hookup thru the neighbors and CFE required them to have their entire electric system checked by an electrician of CFEs choice and the entire business arguing about it was strung out over 2 months during which they went without CFE electricity.

You cheat you take your chances of getting caught and paying the piper.

What is most astonishing is that the couple tell this story and feel wronged that their neighbors were told and that they had to buy two generators.

(This post was edited by NEOhio1 on Jun 17, 2011, 9:50 AM)

La Paz

Jun 17, 2011, 10:13 AM

Post #12 of 23 (2266 views)

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Re: [NEOhio1] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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NEOhio1, I hear what you're saying....but in my personal experience (granted with non-CFE problems) PROFECO's intervention has forced the service provider to take a fair approach towards me as a consumer. I agree that CFE takes a "strong-arm" approach & that's what I object to. Not everyone is guilty or even aware of how pre-existing things are set up when they buy a property.

I totally agree with your comment "You cheat you take your chances of getting caught and paying the piper.", but in this instance, it sounds like Salto_jorge was an unknowing participant. Of course from CFE's perspective any & everyone caught would kick into denial mode! The fact that he posted about his situation here is pretty telling that he was unaware of the situation.

Bennie García

Jun 17, 2011, 10:19 AM

Post #13 of 23 (2264 views)

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Re: [La Paz] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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Ahhh but he didn't speak up about his incredibly low usage charges! That should have raised a red flag or two but as with most people, nary a word. Maybe he should be thankful it was caught when it was. It would have been far costlier at a later point in time.

(This post was edited by Bennie García on Jun 17, 2011, 10:34 AM)

La Paz

Jun 17, 2011, 10:27 AM

Post #14 of 23 (2257 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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True! Ignorance....or naivety....is bliss! We aren't all knowledgeable in the same areas.

Marlene

Jun 17, 2011, 10:42 AM

Post #15 of 23 (2247 views)

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Re: [La Paz] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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As you pointed out, having 2 meters on a single family property is already knowingly circumventing the system. CFE get this. They uncover all sorts of abuses and are really cracking down on this sort of thing. I think it's a stretch to think that one Federal agency would investigate another. I wonder how that would go. :-)

(This post was edited by Marlene on Jun 17, 2011, 10:47 AM)

Rolly

Jun 17, 2011, 11:34 AM

Post #16 of 23 (2221 views)

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Re: CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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As Ernestine (Lily Tomlin) used to say of the phone company: "We are omnipotent." Applies equally to CFE.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook

richmx2

Jun 17, 2011, 11:35 AM

Post #17 of 23 (2214 views)

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Re: [La Paz] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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... it sounds like Salto_jorge was an unknowing participant.

It may be unfair to assume Salto_jorge would have known that his electric bills were ridiculously low, but who said life was fair? While I can't speak for CFE, it looks like Salto_jorge didn't follow due diligence as a customer... and from the electric company's pov it is reasonable to assume that he was aware of the irregularity and did nothing to rectify the situation.

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salto_jorge

Jun 17, 2011, 12:14 PM

Post #18 of 23 (2196 views)

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Re: [johanson] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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We live in a coto consisting of 4 units.
Three of the units never sold and are vacant and we never talk about the vacant ones to prevent squatters as well as wall and gate climbers.
Most of the residents in the area think that we live in all the units due to us having 3 US plated vehicles in the parking area.

The builder has done some work in the past on the other units and CFE recently installed meter heads in the bases for the units.
We have no idea how they connected to the power system, the other meters do not seem to function.

It is possable that workers made some connections using my meter and never removed it after one of their work sessions.
They have not worked on or visited the other three units since September of 2010.
In the past we have flipped the main breakers in our home and checked our meter to see it power was being consumed and it was not.

When we first moved in the lights burned out on a frequent basis and became stuck in the sockets.
We called an electrician and he informed us that the problem was due to the wiring in the home and from the home to the street.
Complaining to the builder was a waste of time so we had the wires replaced, the main panel rewired, and more breakers added.
Since then we have had very minor brownouts if any.

Since we are in a coto, we had a seperate meter installed for the gate just in case the other units were purchased.
Due to the fact that we are the only residents, we have been paying the gate bill to prevent the power from being turned off.
And yes, outlets and exterior lights are connected to the gates meter.

We have no idea if a jumper was installed, CFE will only tell us the the problem was on our side and not theirs.
CFE was aware that the main service to the house was replaced since they had worked on the meter at the same time.

We do not know if on our side includes some kind of jumpers or not.

(This post was edited by salto_jorge on Jun 17, 2011, 12:31 PM)

jrpierce

Jun 17, 2011, 3:10 PM

Post #19 of 23 (2158 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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If I were in your shoes, I'd hire a Mexican lawyer and visit the CFE with him/her. I'm guessing you'll make a lot more progress, and it shouldn't cost very much either.

Jim

whynotwrite

Jun 17, 2011, 4:23 PM

Post #20 of 23 (2133 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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Getting a lawyer or trying to fight this is a lose / lose option for you. I have had the same problem on a rental unit, a shunt installed at the meter. I have had my electric meter at home stop working ( I the meter man hit the meter and it started working) and have had the CFE guys check and found that someone had replaced the fuse links in the main fuses of our commercial business with pieces of copper wire. Each and every time I was at fault, end of story.
Pay the 5000 peso bill (about even when you figure 6 months of by passed electric) and call it even. You will never win this claim so the faster it is behind you the quicker you can forget about it.

donemry

Jun 18, 2011, 9:42 AM

Post #21 of 23 (2052 views)

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Re: [Marlene] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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Yes, we had this situation happen to us. When we bought the house, it was about 85% complete. As part of the deal, the developer agreed to finish the house and do some remodeling of the floor plan. At that time, there was no meter at the house.

Three years later, CFE came by to do a meter inspection. I watched while they did it. They broke the seal and removed the meter. One side of the 240 V line was bypassing the meter. Therefore, the bypass was there when the meter was installed and sealed. Thus, for 3 years we had only been paying for part of the electricity. That was bout 800 pesos per month, so we did not think it was an issue.

CFE wanted us to pay for back usage and about 10,000 peso fine. I turned the situation over to my attorney and after several months, she negotiated a lower amount for the back usage and eliminated the fine. (My attorney is knowledgeable, aggressive and well connected).

Of course our current CFE bill went up to the 3,000 peso range. We still love Mexico.

salto_jorge

Jun 21, 2011, 4:49 AM

Post #22 of 23 (1950 views)

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Re: [donemry] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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How much did the lawyer charge you ?

donemry

Jun 21, 2011, 7:00 AM

Post #23 of 23 (1913 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] CFE wants to charge us a fine for power usage

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In Reply To

How much did the lawyer charge you ?

The lawyer is a good friend.