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RonMader

Mar 12, 2003, 9:48 AM

Post #1 of 28 (2051 views)

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Beaches -- Enviro Issues

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Greetings -

I am updating the marine tourism section online Planeta.com. Does any member of this forum have first-hand experience of conservation issues along in coastal areas?

Please post any anecedotes, recommended websites, news about mangroves or reefs -- in short, anything connected with the places the oceans meet the earth.

Thanks,

Ron
Ron Mader
Planeta.com
http://www.planeta.com

Uncle Donnie

Mar 13, 2003, 7:28 AM

Post #2 of 28 (1940 views)

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Re: [RonMader] Beaches -- Enviro Issues

Hi Ron,

I don't know if this is applicable to your project but I recently posted an article here on Mexconnect about the turtle conservation efforts in the Melaque/Barra de Navidad/La Manzanilla area, along with local contact info for the former Melaque mayor who is heading up the project.

Also, do you know Ms. Huerta, a biologist with the group in Guad that's involved in identifying and tagging the crocs in the marshes along our section of the coastline? I won't be back in MX until Sat. but I have her contact info at home if you're interested.

And on a related note there are many local organizations in most coastal towns (as you well know) who organize regular beach clean-up projects. I know that much of your excellent writings are much more project oriented but I think we all appreciate the efforts of the local Mexican and gringo communities working together on the beach beautification chores.

Keep up the good work!

UD

Shameless self-promotion:
http://www.headformexico.com

RonMader

Apr 9, 2004, 4:18 AM

Post #3 of 28 (1871 views)

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Re: [Uncle Donnie] Beaches -- Enviro Issues

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Don, turtle conservation is of great interest. Can you share the URL of the article you wrote for Mexico Connect?

I'd be happy to link to it from Planeta's guide to these critters
http://www.planeta.com/...sources/turtles.html

That said, I would emphasize that in this thread what interests me is the quality of the water at Mexico's popular beaches. It's an issue which we should pay attention.
Ron Mader
Planeta.com
http://www.planeta.com

mepsi

Apr 9, 2004, 6:46 AM

Post #4 of 28 (1858 views)

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Re: [RonMader] Beaches -- Enviro Issues

Ron, regarding beaches, we got the list of the ten dirtiest beaches and now where not to go. How about the ten cleanest beaches so we can go there?

Monte

mazgordon

Apr 9, 2004, 5:38 PM

Post #5 of 28 (1819 views)

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Enviro Issues - One step further?

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In this very frugal society I am constantly amazed there is no coordinated effort toward recycling. I know that glass containers for beer, pop, etc. are regularly returned for the deposit, but why not other recyclable products such as plastics and paper? Pop and beer cans reportedly fetch 7 centavos per kilo.

I've heard Mexico is the world's 9th largest economy. With all the recent inroads in post consumer technologies from all over the planet, one would think this culture would be a perfect match for a vibrant recycling industry. It might ultimately employ many thousands of people if not more.

I understand that there has to be some financial motive to move the people toward this burgeoning industry but how hard could it be to arrange for those poor folks who live at and work the landfills to begin sorting and separating all the trash that comes in? They could actually be paid for this work.

There are apparently small scale processing plants available now to pulverise plastics and shred paper for numerous post consumer products. Those raw materials could then be shipped to larger end product manufacturers.

While we all understand the ingrained cultural imperatives that work against an innovation like this, I would be interested in observations and suggestions from you forum members and your neighbors on possible ways to positively implement such a venture.

I'm sure this has been mentioned here before, but I thought the topic might enjoy another airing in this thread.

Gordon

¡Echar todo la carne al asador!

jennifer rose

Apr 9, 2004, 7:54 PM

Post #6 of 28 (1799 views)

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Re: [mazgordon] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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In this very frugal society I am constantly amazed there is no coordinated effort toward recycling.

You might surprised to learn that many municipios have implemented trash recylcing programs.

Quote

how hard could it be to arrange for those poor folks who live at and work the landfills to begin sorting and separating all the trash that comes in? They could actually be paid for this work.

Read Patrick Oster's book, "The Mexicans," and specifically the chapter about pepenadores. I think you may find yourself surprised to learn about the economics of trash....and that book was written about fifteen years ago. Those folks who live and work at the landfill are paid for their work.

Carol Schmidt

Apr 9, 2004, 7:56 PM

Post #7 of 28 (1802 views)

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Re: [mazgordon] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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I don't think a single aluminum can in a public trash receptacle goes into a landfill, from what I've seen. Mexicans are digging through the trash receptacles in San Miguel on a regular basis. And several new big developments in this area are adding water recycling projects to their plans, most notably the Jack Nicklaus golf resort soon to be built. The project will use recycled water to irrigate not only the golf course but also for agriculture, selling it cheaply to nearby farms.

In the U.S. we kept finding out that stuff we'd worked hard to recycle was then just simply dumped into the landfills anyway, because it was too much work and not financially rewarding enough for companies to recycle much. The issue is very complex--sounds great to say "recycle," but the whole system of collection and reuse needs refinement in the US, not to mention in Mexico and other countries. That's not to say that the work shouldn't be done because it's difficult.

I see Mexican restaurants, including franchises of McDonald's, using the bulky, virtually nondestructible styrofoam containers for hamburgers that environmentalists got rid of long ago in most US fast food establishments, including McDonald's in the US. That seems like a good place to apply pressure.

Carol Schmidt

RonMader

Apr 10, 2004, 6:52 AM

Post #8 of 28 (1772 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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Recycling ... one problem we see throughout Latin America is that new technologies of producing plastics precede the implementation of recycling equipment. So a new lightweight plastic is developed and 5 years later in comes the equipment that can process the trash.

Friends in Ecuador are working toward changing legislation -- if you want to produce plastic, then you better have the recycling equipment in place.

Recycling is one of our favorite topics on Planeta. Check out the resource guide and if you have links to suggest, let me know

Recycling
http://www.planeta.com/...trade/recycling.html

Also, a highly recommended book on regional environmental issues is Trouble in Paradise: Globalization and Environmental Crises in Latin America available through Amazon --
http://www.amazon.com/...m/ecotravelsinlatiA/
Ron Mader
Planeta.com
http://www.planeta.com

Karen K

Apr 11, 2004, 11:40 AM

Post #9 of 28 (1719 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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This is exactly what I want to know about. I intend to be environmently responsible on my new ranch near Colima. Does anyone know of a plastics recycling collection place near Colima or even in Guadalajara? My nephew wants to bury the stuff but I said no-way.

Your information will be appreciated.

Moisheh

Apr 14, 2004, 2:34 PM

Post #10 of 28 (1642 views)

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Re: [Karen K] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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My family has spent 4 generations in the recycling industry. The last 10 years have not been good ones. Too many levels of government mandating all kinds of recycling that is not feasible or does not make economic sense. Plastic is one of the hardest things to recycle. Many of the items do not have any value. In fact many have a negative value. That is it costs more to collect, process and ship to a facility than the actual value of the materials. Before all the do gooders, yuppies, hippies , environmental activists and governments got involved, the market determined whether it was worthwhile to recycle. The largest components of municipal garbage is paper (fibre). In previous years when the demand for paper was low packing plants just stopped accepting paper. When the markets improved they again paid for paper. Today because of recycling programs the paper just keeps on coming thus driving the price into the basement and packers out of business. Artificial markets do not work. Mexico has the advantage of being able to see all the mistakes we have made in The US and Canada. I hope if they develop programs they will be sensible. I know that Mexico City has some sort of paper recycling program. Perhaps the first thing Mexico should do is look at Hazmat. Mexico is an environmental disaster. Glass, paper and plastic are not the problem. What do you think happens to all the motor oil from car agencies and all the little mecanico operations? In most cases it goes into the ground. What about car batteries? dry cleaning fluid? cleaning solvents? I wont even begin to discuss industrial waste. Especially from the maquiladoras. I am sure there is an equivalent to the EPA, but rules are rarely enforced. These items are a present danger and require immediate attention. The rest can wait.

Esteban

Apr 14, 2004, 2:56 PM

Post #11 of 28 (1638 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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I think you forgot to mention the most dangerous waste of all......hospital waste! It has the potential not unlike a nuclear disaster of contaminating the potable aquifers for many years. Without potable water you don't have life.

Moisheh

Apr 14, 2004, 6:23 PM

Post #12 of 28 (1612 views)

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Re: [Esteban] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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THank you Esteban. In Hermosillo about 2 years ago they discovered that one of the medical waste haulers was just dumping the stuff in a field!! I wonder if the company name was Media Noche Haulers.

(This post was edited by Moisheh on Apr 14, 2004, 6:27 PM)

elcomputo

Apr 14, 2004, 6:36 PM

Post #13 of 28 (1603 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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You are correct on all counts. There have been a couple of technologies developed to dispose of plastics and other stuff that cannot economically be recycled. One puts all manner of trash (including chopped-up metal) through a heat-and-chemical process that itself produces no pollution but does produce petrol. I believe they have begun using this in Philadelphia. But until Mexico can bring in something like that, it can discourage pollution by putting a meaningful deposit (say, 10 pesos) on all plastic bottles. That would encourage people to either bring the bottles back to retrieve their deposit or encourage scavengers to retrieve them wherever they have been thrown, just as they do now with aluminum.

A bigger problem is the plastic bag. These things are all over the place. In the States, supermarkets collect them, and that helps, but I think there is more of a recognition in the USA of what an environmental eyesore these things are than is true of Mexico. Perhaps the best thing is to work toward a biodegradable bag -- bags made out of corn wrappers, or such.

And, yes, the chemical pollution is the biggest problem and the one that is most difficult to solve. Unlike the USA, where most people now get their engine oil changed at large chain quick-lube stores and auto parts stores (which recycle the oil), most people in Mexico either change their own oil, dumping it wherever there's a vacant lot or pouring it down a sewer drain, or whatever. Or else their mechanic changes it, and what happens to it then? I don't know.

Something needs to be done about this quickly, as Mexico is fast running out of potable water, most of which is drawn from underground acquifers. Polluted recharge water get into these acquifers. The problem is intensified because the water level in these acquifers is dropping because of population pressures and agricultural demands. So the smaller pools are getting proportionately more pollution.

elcomputo

Apr 14, 2004, 6:42 PM

Post #14 of 28 (1600 views)

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Re: [mazgordon] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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I know that recycling is done on some surprisingly local levels here.

Last week I visited a store in SMA where the owner sold what he called "pewter." Real pewter is an alloy of nickle and tin. His is an alloy of aluminum and something else. He makes plates, salad bowls, candle holders, mirror frames, all manner of stuff out of this material. He makes them all in his small shop behind the store. He also makes large patio furniture there from aluminum.

Where does he get the aluminum? Recycled beer and pop cans. Some pieces also employ blue glass, which is also recycled (I suspect from those tall tequila bottles).

The stuff is very attractive and very cheap. When I saw the price tags, I thought they must be in dollars for the tourist trade. No. They were in pesos.

Moisheh

Apr 14, 2004, 7:14 PM

Post #15 of 28 (1590 views)

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Re: [elcomputo] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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One of the biggest sources of motor oil pollution is leaking cars. There is more oil spilled on roads from leaky cars in the United States every year than the Exxon Valdez. Imagine how much is leaked from Mexican Charangones! Have you ever seen under the "hood" of one of those old Dina buses. Oil splatters everywhere. I don't remember the exact figure but one litre of motor oil poured into the ground will pollute many thousands of gallons of water. If you live in a Town in Mexico where the water is turned off at nite you are even more succeptible to pollution entering your water supply. Because of all the fugas when the water is off lots of junk gets in the lines. Many times the water lines are less than 3 cm. below the surface. If a cow pees on that spot this will enter the water line and your house! Why worry about plastic bags and mantequilla containers. AS for grinding up plastic and using it to make some sort of product this is questionable. The containers are supposed to be clean. This means using precious water . In my city in Canada a bright guy came up with a process to use shredder fluff ( this what is left of a car that is shredded. includes upholstery, dashboards ,etc.). He was making these great parking curbs and landscape ties. I think he added plastic bags and some other plastics as well. Last I heard production was stopped. Seems some sort of dangerous chemical was found in the product. Lots of problems. Adding a few pesos to the already overpriced sodas is not an option. Who would pay the store keepers to handle the returned bottles? Where would they store them? This is Mexico not British Columbia.

(This post was edited by Moisheh on Apr 14, 2004, 7:16 PM)

elcomputo

Apr 14, 2004, 7:20 PM

Post #16 of 28 (1584 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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Now I know why, when I get on some of those buses, I spot 10-gallon drums of oil sitting in the back.

Sure glad there are no cows in the streets of SMA.

Rolly

Apr 14, 2004, 8:04 PM

Post #17 of 28 (1565 views)

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Re: [elcomputo] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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Interesting discussion, guys, thanks.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook

Apr 14, 2004, 10:40 PM

Post #18 of 28 (1546 views)

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Re: [Esteban] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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"Esteban" writes:
I think you forgot to mention the most dangerous waste of all......hospital waste!....

1. When you say hospital waste, what are you specifically concerned about?

2. How does this hospital waste get into the "potable aquifers"?

Esteban

Apr 15, 2004, 5:27 AM

Post #19 of 28 (1534 views)

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Re: [ET] Enviro Issues - One step further?

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I'm thinking all hospital waste including blood products etc. Isn't it possible dangerous stuff could be mixed with rainwater and go down through the soil to the water table? I mean how else does the aquifer get re-generated?

Apr 17, 2004, 2:24 PM

Post #20 of 28 (1459 views)

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Re: [Esteban] "Hospital Wastes"

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quote]"Esteban" writes:
I'm thinking all hospital waste including blood products etc. Isn't it possible dangerous stuff could be mixed with rainwater and go down through the soil to the water table? I mean how else does the aquifer get re-generated?

With such vaguely expressed fears ("all hospital waste", "dangerous stuff") I can only offer an answer in a broad form.

Medical waste generally ceases to be a significant risk when it loses recognizable form. Direct contact with blood or other bodily fluids offers the risk of exposure to whatever pathogens may be present in the blood or fluid. Blood remains intact in a vial, needle, or syringe and continues to carry this risk. Expose blood to large quantities of air, such as if it was dumped into a field, and proteins and structures start to degrade and pathogenic microorganisms start to die off. A similar activity is seen when blood is dumped into water. Neither of the two big fear factors, the Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) and the Hepatitis B Virus (HBV) survive for any significant period when placed into water, which is why to this day, hospitals and laboratories in the US are continued to be allowed to dump bulk blood into the standard sanitary sewer system without pretreatment (blood in vials is disposed of in the vials as medical waste to reduce the handling and associated risk of exposure).

Beyond blood, you'll find that medical waste regulations in the US are only in part intended to assure that such items as needles, syringes, used dressings, and tissue specimens are sterilized before being disposed of with other municipal wastes. The other significant component of the regulations are to force the wastes to be rendered unrecognizable, so that when they wash up on a beach in New Jersey, or are found in a roadside ditch in the vicinity of the landfill they don't cause major public outcry, concern, and/or newspaper pictures. To this end the regulations are extended to veterinary and laboratory wastes with similar appearances not because of any significant exposure risks to humans, but because they could be confused with medical waste and make the 6 PM news.

Aquifers are recharged ("re-generated") through the percolation of groundwater though a solid medium such as rock. This percolation can take years to centuries, and can serve to both filter and age out pathogenic microorganisms. Direct connections between groundwater and aquifers only tends to occur in either fractures and man-made penetrations such as around improperly installed wellshafts, and tend to affect the "shallow" aquifers directly beneath the water table. If drawn from the ground municipal potable water supplies are typically drawn from the deeper aquifers which are more protected and require longer percolation times and distances. I've never seen an aquifer being described as a "potable aquifer".

Esteban

Apr 17, 2004, 4:41 PM

Post #21 of 28 (1434 views)

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Re: [ET] "Hospital Wastes"

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Aquifers are at different levels and do not necessarily follow the topography of the land. If it takes a few years or decades to contaminate who cares? When it does happen, it's too late. To say there is no danger of contamination is absurd. Like you mentioned, there are existing wells which provide a direct access and many of which, in Mexico, are not being maintained which means they could easily be abandoned improperly and be an excellent highway for contamination. As to whether the wells drilled in Mexico are kept to the high level of safety usually found in the US is something I doubt. I am referring to the sealing of the casing adequate enough to provide safety from ground water intrusion. I know for a fact, here in Mazatlan, the water system does not have enough money to maintain the system as it should. Now you look at larger cities where hospital waste is not just a few garbage cans of severed arms but more like tons of waste weekly I believe there is a good chance of water contamination. Sure, we can abandon water at higher levels and go deeper to "fossil" water, and that's being done in certain areas, but the cost is much higher and the water, as you mentioned, sometimes takes thousands of years to re-charge.

Apr 17, 2004, 5:49 PM

Post #22 of 28 (1421 views)

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Re: [Esteban] "Hospital Wastes"

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And you still haven't identified what components of "hospital waste" you're so worried about. But there's very bad news for you -- people have been burying entire bodies, some healthy, some horribly diseased, for thousands of years. Sometimes they put them into fancy boxes, sometimes they simply drop them into holes in the ground, and when there's been serious outbreaks of disease or wholesale killing, they'll dig pits or trenches where they'll tumble bunches of them all together. And although some of the bodies have been given a squirt or two of a formaldehyde solution into their veins, a whole bunch of them have been full of blood and all kinds of nasty things that come out of them. And according to your fears, this is all headed toward an "aquifer" near you, whether near you be in Mexico, the US, Europe, or anywhere else.

mazgordon

Apr 17, 2004, 5:57 PM

Post #23 of 28 (1418 views)

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Re: [ET] Recycling

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This thread is certainly taking on an interesting, though somewhat macabre, complexion. I'm still interested in local sources for recycling plastic and paper products, whether here in Mazatlan or, as Karen K requested earlier, in other locales. There's not much we can do about the bodies in the graveyards, is there?

¡Echar todo la carne al asador!

Apr 17, 2004, 6:06 PM

Post #24 of 28 (1412 views)

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Re: [mazgordon] Recycling

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Mazgordon writes:
....There's not much we can do about the bodies in the graveyards, is there?

"Esteban" will probably stay up all night worrying about them (....inch by inch they approach the water table. Inch by inch they descend upon the aquifer....). As for the recycling angle, there's always Soylent Green.

Esteban

Apr 18, 2004, 10:34 AM

Post #25 of 28 (1370 views)

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Re: [ET] Recycling

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Just off the top of my head....how about radioactive waste from hospitals?

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