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YucaLandia

Nov 2, 2011, 11:13 AM

Post #1 of 16 (1648 views)

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Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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A fun topic came up on another thread:

Any restrictions on driving Mexican Plated Car in US

If anyone has followed my posts re: paying Aduana a 50% tax on one's stolen US vehicle in order to cancel their temporary permit then you may want to know I decided to forfeit my right to bring another vehicle here from the US and am planning on buying a "Mexican" car. ...

... Some one suggested if I wanted to bring another US car into Mexico(which I don't) that I "lose" my passport and have a new one issued. It will have a different # and the chances are the Permit database works on the passport # and not names and addresses. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Gracias-will keep you posted on how this saga turns out.

yodave

I'd like to poll Mexconnect readers opinions about this and related items:
1. How do Mexconnect readers react when they read about or hear about immigrants in Canada or USA, advising each other on how to get-around or break Canadian or US laws and not get caught?

2. How would Mexconnect readers react when they read about immigrants in Canada or USA, using forums on public websites asking for advice and giving advice about how to get-around or break Canadian or US laws and not get caught?

3. How do Mexconnect readers react when they read about or hear about immigrants in Canada or USA getting-around or breaking Canadian or US laws?

4. How do Mexconnect readers react when they read about or hear about people intentionally lying to Canadian or USA government agencies to get-around Canadian or US laws?

5. Should immigrants and visitors pay legally legislated fees and taxes in the USA and Canada?
a. What about absurd taxes or fees that the visitor agrees to in the govt. forms they sign?
b. What about paying legal duties for every non-personal item they bring into the USA or Canada?

6. Are soliciting and giving advice different than actually breaking the rules?

7. How do the answers to #1 - #6 affect what expats and tourists do in Mexico and how they act in Mexico?

I think this is a good topic, since issues of skirting or intentionally violating laws and rules come up on almost every expat forum. Posts of stories about successful skirting of laws, rules, and taxes are also very common on expat forums.

This not meant to scold, but to try to help understand how we get into different mentalities and perspectives when we are away from home. (or not?)
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.wordpress.com/

tashby

Nov 2, 2011, 12:18 PM

Post #2 of 16 (1611 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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Not to discourage this discussion, but if you're interested in reading it, here's an old thread on basically the same topic from a couple of years ago.

http://www.mexconnect.com/...ut%20foreign;#134623

(For some reason that link takes you to the middle of page one, you'll need to scroll up to the top.)

(This post was edited by tashby on Nov 2, 2011, 12:19 PM)

Goyo

Nov 2, 2011, 12:51 PM

Post #3 of 16 (1594 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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my reaction is cerebral, not emotional. i don't care unless it pertains to me in some form. then i filter for myself, no censorship needed. i am open minded in all matters pertaining to thoughts, ideas and opinions. political correctness vigilancia scares me but not bullies...

stevebrtx

Nov 2, 2011, 1:34 PM

Post #4 of 16 (1583 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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I believe it all, but then my Mother believed Dr. Spock - maybe it's genetic? - probably explains a lot of things huh?
www.chapalaweather.net

chinagringo

Nov 2, 2011, 3:34 PM

Post #5 of 16 (1547 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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While people often claim to be "law abiding citizens", it would be a virtually impossible task to find someone who has never bent the rules or laws to fit their particular situation!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

richmx2

Nov 2, 2011, 4:25 PM

Post #6 of 16 (1533 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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As a former "reverso mojado" (no, I did not do the backstroke across the Rio Bravo del Norte... I took a job and overstayed my tourist visa) , not much I can say about those who do the same thing I did in other countries. However, when I run across expats who want to whine about Mexican immigration regulations, I point them to my handy-dandy little back of the envelope cost comparison of immigration fees.

There is a certain percentage of wannabe "outlaws" who just move here in the belief that they are exempt from the normal social and legal rules that apply to any stranger in a strange land, but I don't see much point in bothering to steer them to the straight and narrow... a general lack of sympathy for when they screw up or get themselves screwed over is all that is required.

More difficult to deal with are those who a friend of mine (who lived in a former British colony among expats) calls "Whenwes" after their habit of comparing conditions now with they way they were "when we ran things...". Of course, most of those expats were never colonial officials, or had any connection to the colonies any more than "we" ran Mexico, but the mindset is still with us. It's kind of appalling to be stuck with expats who seem to think they're entitled to some "special rights" because of their country of origin.

While a certain amount of it is overtly racist (and why people who don't like the people who live here chose to live here is an unsolved mystery to me), a good part of it is ignorance.

I'm always appalled at the number of people I meet who have some exceeding strange idea that the laws and social conventions of Mexico are optional for them. While some are openly contemptuous of this country (and why they live here is a mystery to me), most are simply naive and accepted (or more often simply want to believe) the most stereotyped nonsense spread in a less enlightened time ("These simple people are grateful for our charity in hiring them to clean my toilets") and, ideally, can be straightened out gently. But when they get some wrong idea stuck in their thick heads about something that's totally illegal (say, expecting one's cleaning lady to put up with working conditions and/or salary arrangements outside of those found in the labor code), sometimes you have to remind them that they are the minority here, and more likely to be singled out for "special wrongs".

Do I bend the rules from time to time? Absolutely (I'm pure as the driven slush), but any recommendation to do so comes with the understanding that there are risks and possible consequences that are very real.

And when all else fails, you can't exactly whomp somebody upside the head in cyberspace: BUT YOU CAN WRITE IN ALL CAPS BOLDFACE!!!

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

YucaLandia

Nov 2, 2011, 5:47 PM

Post #7 of 16 (1511 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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In Reply To

As a former "reverso mojado" (no, I did not do the backstroke across the Rio Bravo del Norte... I took a job and overstayed my tourist visa) , not much I can say about those who do the same thing I did in other countries.
...
I'm always appalled at the number of people I meet who have some exceeding strange idea that the laws and social conventions of Mexico are optional for them. ...

Interesting point about the common expat perception of optional compliance with laws and rules here.

One likely cause: There is often so little enforcement of rules that we begin to subtly think that compliance is optional? or Even when we are caught breaking the rules, we tend to think we should be able to talk our ways out of the multa, fine, duty, etc - almost as if it is some game when we are stopped by the police or Aduana, and we are surprised when there are occasionally real or harsh consequences?

Maybe because Mexico seems to have fewer rules, or different rules, we begin to subtly subconciously act as if the rules don't appply to us? Sometimes we see natives and citizens breaking the rules - like not paying IMSS on workers - or not paying aguinaldos or paying severance pay - that cause even expert ex-pat websites to tell readers that they don't have to pay these things? As we hear about and see others get away with breaking rules, we imagine that "that's how things really work".

Maybe it's entertainment & Hollywood's fault for creating a century of impressions that expats can just slip across the border to leave their problems behind?

Changes in attitude, changes in latitude?
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.wordpress.com/

Ustlach

Nov 5, 2011, 4:12 PM

Post #8 of 16 (1307 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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Virtually every Mexican I am personally acquainted with openly derides and disrespects me whenever I mention how hard it is for me to live here and abide by the laws, when they, the Mexicans do not.

Every Mexican I know, with no exceptions and with no equivocation, considers virtually all laws except murder, rape, and armed robbery to be optional. Breaking the law here is only wrong if you get caught and you do not have connections to get you out of the consequences, if any.

My neighbors shake their fists at me and pass me a high speeds, cell phone in one hand, cigarette in the other, toddlers standing on the front seat, fumes and smoke belching from the exhaust, wheels wobbling precariously, cracked windshields (probably from having already launched a kid or two against it) because I am driving 20 km per hour (the posted limit) through these crowded, congested residential streets trying my damndest not to run over someone or get hit by someone.

I always stop at Km 21 to check out and upon return I stop again to check back in, all the while my partner is bitching and moaning about how we are only going overnight to Tucson and no one is going to care and how much time we are losing in the process.

I maintain insurance on my truck in the USA and in Mexico, because as far as I can tell there is no other legal way to have the truckito here with me. I guess I could use those $200-$300 per year for a nice borrachera or two out here on the sidewalk, complete with fireworks, but I chose to obey the law.

I could go on and on, and I could also mention much more serious infractions that I am constantly encouraged to commit and then scoffed at because I won't do it.

Mexico is the shit hole it is in at least in considerable part because there is no rule or respect or enforcement of law. But I am not contributing to it.

joaquinx

Nov 5, 2011, 4:25 PM

Post #9 of 16 (1295 views)

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Re: [Ustlach] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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Good for you. We need more like yourself. As for me, I could care less.

chinagringo

Nov 5, 2011, 4:26 PM

Post #10 of 16 (1293 views)

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Re: [Ustlach] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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"Mexico is the shit hole it is in at least in considerable part because there is no rule or respect or enforcement of law. But I am not contributing to it."

A rather harsh comment to say the least and I am really scratching my head as to why you live there. Personally, I find it kind of humorous that many Mexicans treat their laws as recommendation or suggestions.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

GringoCArlos

Nov 5, 2011, 10:21 PM

Post #11 of 16 (1225 views)

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Re: [Ustlach] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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I obey the local laws, maintain my visa, and try to live a low profile life. My friends and neighbors appear to do the same (except they don't need a visa).

One needs to be careful who they associate with, or the neighborhood where they live. I could probably find the same bad attitudes cited previously from many people living in an INFONAVIT project in an outlying area of any city in Mexico. Complaining to locals about their country doesn't win many friends either. I consciously make the choice not to do so.

To the contrary, my Mexican friends and acquaintances obey the laws, have car insurance, fix their cars if something is broken or damaged, strap their kids into the back seat, etc. They drive newer cars and own their homes outright. We look out for each other as much or more so than neighbors I had NOB. I don't know what gringos do here in MX, as I chose to live far away from most of them.

If an expat thinks that MX is a such a shithole, they probably project the same vibes during the entire time they are in Mexico. Why wouldn't they do themselves and Mexico a favor and head back to Arizona, or Virginia, or Uranus, if they think life is so great there and life in MX is so crappy? Personally, I choose to live somewhere (Mexico) where there AREN'T myriad laws and regulations telling me what I MUST do. Some people need that security blanket, or want to play neighborhood nanny. Not me.

(This post was edited by GringoCArlos on Nov 5, 2011, 10:47 PM)

Casa

Nov 6, 2011, 12:48 AM

Post #12 of 16 (1195 views)

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Re: [Ustlach] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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Sometimes quite literally a shit hole…… or as the article below describes it, lagoons of raw sewage…….

Click link for article and pictures……

http://www.milenio.com/cdb/doc/impreso/9055578

"Descargó Villa Panamericana aguas negras a cielo abierto
2011-11-03 • Impreso DF y estados
Los administradores construyeron siete “lagunas” para almacenar desechos. El agua residual se fue a los arroyos, que son parte importante de la cuenca hidrológica. "

video here http://bcove.me/z4pv8685

As any Mexican will tell you Impunidad / Impunity is a big problem in Mexico.....

(This post was edited by Casa on Nov 6, 2011, 1:01 AM)

Sculptari

Nov 6, 2011, 7:18 AM

Post #13 of 16 (1136 views)

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Re: [Casa] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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Jorge g Castenedas, one of Mexico's great thinkers, has an interesting take on Mexican "Individualism", which he claims is unique in the world - and he should know!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=essq3341SQE

(This post was edited by Rolly on Nov 6, 2011, 7:39 AM)

YucaLandia

Nov 6, 2011, 10:04 AM

Post #14 of 16 (1094 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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This leads into...
What are the differences between cultural traits vs national character vs central features ... and reality?
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.wordpress.com/

Moisheh

Nov 6, 2011, 5:31 PM

Post #15 of 16 (1022 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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Do not be hard on Ustlach. He lives in Sonora which is quite different than states further south. His description of the charangas and unbelted kids is so true. And yes the law is optional for Mexicans in this state. There are no zoning regulations. They do not pay seguro and abuse the workers. Kind of like the wild west. But the adjective shithole is far too extreme!! I would say it is sometimes lawless.

geri

Nov 11, 2011, 7:48 AM

Post #16 of 16 (854 views)

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Re: [GringoCArlos] Acceptable Actions North and South of the Border?

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AMEN. I agree. Well stated.