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Bubba

Oct 11, 2006, 6:58 PM

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Were We Keeping You Awake?

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Let´s hear it for rank stupidity.

Just in case none of you noticed, this forum ,since its inception, has been a complete failure except for the "Articles on Oaxaca" thread so the idiot moderator locks the only thread that has generated any interest hereabouts. I don´t know who did this but I guarantee you it wasn´t Tony.

I´ve put a lot of energy into turning this forum into something of interest. Events in Oaxaca are of paramount interest at present. You want to lock this discussion you can kiss my butt.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Oct 11, 2006, 7:18 PM)



DavidMcL


Oct 11, 2006, 8:56 PM

Post #2 of 14 (4622 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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Bubba;
As you will have learned from a response on one of the other forums here, threads that get overly long will get locked - not as an editorial, but as a courtesy to readers who use the "Flat" mode of viewing the forums. With every single posting within a particularily long thread fully opened, it takes a long time to load, and will occupy about 30 screens full, depending upon their screen size, resolution and font.
If the topic is a good one, someone will - just like you did here - reopen the topic wih a new, shorter thread.

Go back to the locked thread, open the Flat mode and you will see what I mean. Even though our server is very, very fast compared to most (your subscription $ at work) with many people's connection speed, it can be a slow process. We are not all blessed with DSL access.

Please, continue the topic.

Suerte

David
David McL
WebJefe


Bubba

Oct 11, 2006, 9:18 PM

Post #3 of 14 (4620 views)

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Re: [DavidMcL] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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God, David:

That´s a rather provocative photograph. When I met you I don´t remember you having been so sexy. Brigitte is in San Cristobal for the next two weeks. Perhaps we should get together to discuss the inadequacies of MexicoConnect´s Southern Mexico Forum in my orchard. Ramon gets off at 2:00.

As Bo Diddle would say, in the meantime I´ll continue to erascitate around here unless you foolishly cut me off..


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Oct 11, 2006, 10:34 PM

Post #4 of 14 (4607 views)

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Re: [DavidMcL] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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As a courtesy to us members & readers, perhaps you could make a final post to the thread to explain whats going on. I've seen too many threads that have been deleted or locked for no apparent reason (not necessarily here). It would be nice for us to have some idea of whats going on.
Getting older and still not down here.


sfmacaws


Oct 11, 2006, 11:49 PM

Post #5 of 14 (4602 views)

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Re: [DavidMcL] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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David, I have always used flat mode but I have it set to 'go to first unread post' and it does not take a long time to load as it only opens the page that has the unread post. I don't think the reasoning on this is valid. I too think that locking threads for no other reason than that they have exceeded some arbitrary number of posts is a bad idea. You interrupt a conversation, basically, and tell people to start it again somewhere else.

I have read MC from a variety of connections; telmex dialup, cell phone, satellite, and cable. I haven't ever had the problem you describe and I've never changed off of flat mode. I don't like the threaded mode, perhaps because I'm not used to it, it seems confusing and more unwieldy to me.

**I'm editing this to add that if you still think that you have to lock threads over a certain number of posts then I think the moderator should have to open a new thread with the same name and a number added such as 'blah blah 2'. An explanation on the old thread that the thread is locked and a new one started would also be good. When we ask for invisible moderating we don't mean that magical things happen without explanation, that is condescending and insulting.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




(This post was edited by sfmacaws on Oct 11, 2006, 11:53 PM)


Bubba

Oct 12, 2006, 7:01 AM

Post #6 of 14 (4582 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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**I'm editing this to add that if you still think that you have to lock threads over a certain number of posts then I think the moderator should have to open a new thread with the same name and a number added such as 'blah blah 2'. An explanation on the old thread that the thread is locked and a new one started would also be good. When we ask for invisible moderating we don't mean that magical things happen without explanation, that is condescending and insulting.

Good point, Jonna. I second that idea.

Incidentally, I haven´t re-opened a Oaxaca events thread because, according to my reading of the local Oaxaca press this morning, we are in sort of a transitional stage with representatives of APPO in Mexico City. As soon as something significant happens, one of us should start this up again.


arbon

Oct 12, 2006, 10:59 AM

Post #7 of 14 (4560 views)

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Re: [DavidMcL] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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David, you have identified another improvement needed in the software, part of which can be accomplished by providing a choice for computers on a slow connection.

So that only a small amount of a forum can be opened in the first place, and then more as needed, or not.

Also people on slow connections and/or slow computers, would be wise not to have too many programes open, at the same time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



(This post was edited by arbon on Oct 12, 2006, 11:05 AM)


Brian

Oct 12, 2006, 11:34 AM

Post #8 of 14 (4551 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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In Reply To
Incidentally, I haven´t re-opened a Oaxaca events thread because, according to my reading of the local Oaxaca press this morning, we are in sort of a transitional stage with representatives of APPO in Mexico City. As soon as something significant happens, one of us should start this up again.


Bubba

I am reluctantly sending this link because I really am tired of defending why I am posting messages that frighten people without offering solutions. I am including it today because I think the Oaxaca press is possibly not the best source of information even for local issues. This happened yesterday and I think that it is significant:

http://news.yahoo.com/...NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Brian


Bubba

Oct 12, 2006, 11:52 AM

Post #9 of 14 (4546 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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Thank you Brian. I agree that the Oaxaca press seems to be poor source of information.


DoDi2


Oct 12, 2006, 12:01 PM

Post #10 of 14 (4542 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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I like http://www.noticias-oax.com.mx/ to get Oax news.

Here's from today's front page. If you done read spanish you can stick it in the google translator to get a pretty good idea of what it says.


Porros y policías agreden
a brigada móvil de la APPO
OCTAVIO VÉLEZ ASCENCIO Mientras el secretario de Gobernación, Carlos Abascal Carranza comía con el gobernador Ulises Ruiz Ortiz en la Ciudad de México, policías y porros atacaron aquí con armas de fuego a una brigada móvil del magisterio oaxaqueño y de la APPO, en las afueras de la Secretaría de Protección Ciudadana, cuando se retiraba después de “clausurar” las oficinas. En la agresión, cuatro participantes resultaron lesionados. Dos por heridas de bala en las piernas, Aurelio Mendoza Mendoza, militante del Frente Popular Revolucionario (FPR), y Giovanni Rojas, miembro del Frente Amplio de Lucha Popular (FALP), así como otros dos por rozones, de nombre Salvador y Juan, estudiantes de las facultades de Derechos y de Economía de la UABJO. Marcos Mateo Esteva Cruz, El Aladino o Aladín, identificado plenamente como porro universitario al servicio de la ex Rectora Leticia Mendoza Toro, dispara un arma de fuego en contra de militantes de la Asamblea Popular de los Pueblos de Oaxaca que mediante una Brigada Móvil pretendía desalojar las oficinas de la Secretaría de Protección Ciudadana.


arbon

Oct 12, 2006, 1:09 PM

Post #11 of 14 (4520 views)

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Re: [DoDi2] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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http://blogs.bootsnall.com/nomads/?p=449

Who are the "Porros"

A well-placed resource gave me this explanation of the porros which is consistent with everything else I have heard:
“Porros” is a term used to describe students [sometimes they are not even students] my insert who are paid by the government (typically the PRI) to act as its thugs on university campuses. This is especially the case on the campuses of public universities that are also defined as “autonomous,” such as the National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM) and the public, autonomous university in Oaxaca (UABJO). The government is very limited in what it can do on autonomous campuses. Even sending the police onto campus grounds is a violation of autonomy.
But paying conservative students to carry out the govt’s dirty work on campus, is a tactic that they have used at least since the 60s. [I suspect some are doing it for the money as some are paid by the government] my insert.
When I was in Oaxaca in early July, I interviewed a student from the university in Oaxaca who had been beaten so badly by porros that his initial diagnosis was complete paralysis. The porro who beat him up broke his neck with a stick. The student had been working with the teachers’ radio station (Radio Planton) and the university radio station, covering the movement. He identified the student who beat him up, and knew him to be a PRI-ista.
In some cases the use of porros may be intended to provoke unrest, thus giving the govt an excuse to crack down. In other cases, it is just another form of repression used to intimidate and scare people who are participating in student movements. Some people may define the word “porro” more broadly and also use the term to describe “provacateurs,” or people paid to “participate” in protests to provoke violence. There’s a good chance that people in Oaxaca who are using the term “porro” are equating it with provacatuer-referring to “porros” who are paid to show up to protests to make trouble, rather than “porros” who directly carry out repression against movement participants (although that is clearly happening as well).
And if they are equating provacatuers with porros, than that would explain speculations that there are porros on “both sides” of the conflict. No one in the teachers’ movement, nor in the Popular Assembly, is paying students to beat up on people (the true and original meaning of porro).
It is possible however that people have been paid to infiltrate the movement and create trouble. That happens in movements all over the world, and across time. And even if that hasn’t happened, the accusations [sometimes spread as deliberate disinformation] my insert alone serve the unfortunate purpose of dividing the movement. It’s quite common that the mainstream media and the government will point to the most “radical” elements in any movement or protest and accuse them of being paid “provacatuers.” That immediately generates distrust, suspicion, and division within a movement.”
The other night, after our adventure in the Zocalo, rather than take a taxi all the way back to her daughter’s house in the middle of the night, my friend Juanita stayed overnight with me. The next morning over breakfast and fresh ground fair trade Oaxacan-grown coffee she tells me about growing up in Guadalajara in the 60’s…about how as a student she was privy to the underground “information” being disseminated by the “porros” who were paid by the government to hang around the universities and cause trouble…giving the government an excuse to crack down.
That was how, she said, that the student demonstrations in Mexico City resulted in tragedy in 1968. Four snipers hired by the government deliberatley killed several policemen who thought the shots were being fired from the crowd of students….so they opened fire and killed hundreds of students.
The man, now in his 80’s who was President at the time and who is thought by most Mexicans to have ordered the action was acquitted just last week for lack of evidence. So that is who we think is causing the vandalism and violence during this strike, Juanita said…porros (”students” who are not really students…just gangs…thugs) who are paid by the government, through the university mind you, to make trouble so the government has an excuse to crack down. Reminds me of how the Black Panthers were destroyed in the 60’s I said to Juanita…only that time it was the FBI infiltrating what started out to be a food program for Black neighborhood children.
“If you feel left behind, these are mysterious times.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



DoDi2


Oct 12, 2006, 2:52 PM

Post #12 of 14 (4503 views)

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Re: [arbon] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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Thanks for posting that very interesting article about porros arbon.

Who are the Laughing Nomads? Wow... I like thier website. Is that you and W.???!


sfmacaws


Oct 12, 2006, 9:18 PM

Post #13 of 14 (4468 views)

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Re: [arbon] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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Anyone who says the Black Panthers started out as a breakfast for kids program has a serious agenda that doesn't include any uncomfortable truths. Puts everything else they write into that never-never land of wishful political thinking.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Bubba

Oct 13, 2006, 9:03 AM

Post #14 of 14 (4437 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Were We Keeping You Awake?

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I wouldn´t be surprised in the Black Panthers started off as a kid´s breakfast program. In fact, I beleive that that was the case. That doesn´t necessarily infer that they were not using those free breakfasts as recruitment tools and for propaganda purposes which was certainly the case. It also is logical the the FBI under Hoover would have tried to infiltrate the Black Panthers and destroy them from within.

Provocation by all sides during times of social change is common. I have absolutely no difficulty whatsoever believing Arbon´s post about the "porros". This helps to explain why the Mexican government is so strict about foreigners participating in political movements.

Having grown up during times of great social unrest and having actually taken part in some organized protests from Birmingham to Oakland, I am aware of the powerful affect of provocateurs staregically placed among people united in a cause or their detractors or law enforcement officials.

Remember Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner murdered near Philadelphia, MS? The Student Nonviolent Co-ordinating Committe (SNCC) knew of the dangers of bringing in naive students from the north and west to the powderkeg that was Mississippi in those days. One of SNCC´s goals was to set off the mindless kluxers who they hoped would kill somebody. I could tell you of hundreds of stories from those days just like that lynching.

You can feel sorry for those three young people slaughtered that year but you can´t deny that, in the long run, and no matter what side you were on, it was a good strategy and it worked all the way up to the Congress.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Oct 13, 2006, 9:38 AM)
 
 
 
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