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Bubba

Dec 17, 2006, 2:30 PM

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In the tradition of Mexico, municipalities are what we in the United States call counties so the municipalities of Chamula and San Andres Larrainza are more than they appear to be. Both seem small isolated villages in the Chiapas countryside near San Cristobal de las Casas but they are, in fact, extended communities covering many kilometers of rural land containing large populations of folks of similar community spirit. Things are complicated by excommunicated protestants who are forced to leave the confines of the traditional pagan/catholic enclaves because they challenge traditional village concepts of order. Many of these excommunicants end up in slums surrounding San Cristobal and they are an unpleasant source of social unrest. More about that later but for now here is what you need to know.

Within the extended Chamula community adjacent to San Cristobal, it is considered important that it not rain during Carnaval so certain people called Pasiones perform self-effacing and stylized rituals such as abstinence from sex and fasting and walking upon coals to induce the God Of Rain to, well, not rain during Carnaval so if it rains it becomes necessary to hold tribunals to determine the offending Pasión who shamelessly screwed his wife while pretending to carry out his duties to prevent rain during the Carnaval festivities. The Pasión determined to be guilty of miscreant behavior must then be jailed until the rains let up.

I like this better than the notion that masturbation will induce blindness, There is, at least, an end to the suffering.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Dec 17, 2006, 2:32 PM)

Gringal

Dec 17, 2006, 3:25 PM

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Now there's a subject line sure to attract readership.

The next question for your investigative journalistic activities is: what custom is followed to ENSURE rain? If logic rules, it sounds like more fun.

Bubba

Dec 17, 2006, 3:54 PM

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Frankly, Gringal, you and I appear to be the only people reading this stuff.

This guy gets on an elevator and just after he enters the cable breaks and the elevator falls 30 floors to the basement and he is broken into a thousand pieces and as he lies there dying his last words are, "I said up!".

esperanza

Dec 17, 2006, 4:48 PM

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Oh Bubba, we're all looking at it...we're just speechless with your stylish prose.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

jacpowell

Dec 17, 2006, 4:55 PM

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I wait with bated breath for more anthropological tidbits of such educational merit. Would you please provide references in the future, Bubba? This is potential dissertation material.

Bubba

Dec 17, 2006, 5:41 PM

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JacPowell:

I can give credit to Henny Youngman for the elevator joke but everything else is dissertation material only as long as you actually buy it personally whether it´s true or not as George Costanza would say.

I will tell you folks a story about "the truth" as told to my darlin wife by her boss, a member of the ancient Baghdad Jewish Sasoon family (a city with an important jewish community in the past) about 1977 which I find instructive:

In Baghdad during the hot summer, families traditionally slept on the roof for relief from the heat. It seems that there was a newly wed couple sleeping among family members on the roof just after their marriage when the mother-in-law approached the bride and reproached her saying, "Can´t you see that you are stifling my son by sleeping too close to him.?" and then she approached her son and reproached him in turn by saying, "Can´t you see that you insult your new wife by sleeping so far from her?"

And that´s the truth.

.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Dec 17, 2006, 5:51 PM)

jacpowell

Dec 17, 2006, 5:48 PM

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So how is the weather in San Cristobal? Can we guess that your active return to MC is due to staying inside? I'm not sure when the coldest weather is there, nor when it's rainiest. Keep us posted on the climate.

Bubba

Dec 17, 2006, 9:04 PM

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Jackie:

It´s a bit chilly in San Cristobal at this time of year since the town of about 130,000 people is at an average altitude if 7,000 plus feet. It also rains there and clouds gather as the community is in a high mountan valley On average. I would guess the valley is a good ten degrees celcius colder that Guadalajara at 5,000 feet. When the Guadalajara/Lake Chapala community becomes hot and dry in April and May, the San Cristobal area is refreshingly cool. You just have to know when to be in each place.

If you don´t like the weather in San Cristobal, you can take the new autopista to Chiapa de Corzo and its beautiful river or Tuxtla Gutierrez and drive in less than an hour down the spectacular mountain slopes to about 1,300 feet and what a great and extraordinary drive this is through alpine forests, corn fields and road cuts that will take your breath away. Think the difference between 60F and 75F in the time in the winter it would take to put on your long johns and make a cup of coffee. You can also drive the 60 kilometers to Comitan or on to the coast so if you don´t like it where you are, go 1/2 hour and spend a bit of time in the most beautiful jungle on the planet.

Peoria South is not a bad place either but as someone once said, France is a great country if it were not inhabited by the French.

bfwpdx

Dec 18, 2006, 7:38 AM

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Like the rest of you I am amazed by this re-born side of Bubba. Long may he stick around! I am however, totally gobsmacked by the phrase "excommunicated protestant"....isn't this a wonderful new oxymoron? Only Bubba could come up with this!

esperanza

Dec 18, 2006, 8:05 AM

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The situation is this: many Protestant denominations have gone to Chiapas as missionaries and have 'converted' indigenous Chiapaneco Catholics to one or another of the Protestant belief systems.

Those converts to Protestantism are excommunicated both from the Catholic Church AND from their native communities. They have to move elsewhere--sometimes to a new town, sometimes just across the highway into a new section of their old town. It's very disheartening to see the Catholic church on one side of a Chiapas highway and the Protestant church (or churches) on the other side: brother separated from brother, sister from sister, mothers from their children, and never the twain shall meet.

Bubba's point was well taken: excommunicated Protestants. It's no laughing matter.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

bfwpdx

Dec 18, 2006, 8:21 AM

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wendy devlin

Dec 18, 2006, 9:13 AM

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...drugs and rock and roll:)

This first post will only skate the surface of a large topic.

It was my pleasure to spend some time with a couple, she, American, he Mexican who had spent a number of months each year, living among among one of the indigenous groups in an outlying village, some 3-4 hours from San Cristobol.

The couple had spend the previous 12 years, learning the language, and their main project, photographing the people and their customs. It took them some years, to get to the point of trust to be able to take photos. I spent time looking a the folders of some of the most amazing photos while the couple explained the significance of the details.

The prime focus of their project was to obtain a photo record of civic and religious practices, which were under huge pressure of disappearing.

One observance both from the photos and a subsequent visit to the church in the heart of Chamula during the last day of Carnaval, was that the Catholicism that characterizes much of Mexico is practiced differently in Chamula.

Now Chamulans are a particular indigenous group, famous(among other things) for throwing out the Catholic priest out of their church, long ago and for the internecine religious rivalry between local groups. Traditional religious practice is steeped in the power and order, of caciques, and Coco-cola etc.

The church floor itself is strewn with evergreen needles and hundreds of candles, burn in several colors(black, if you want ill to befall someone). Eggs are being broken near the floor while a limpia is performed. Copal incense wafts thick and heavy while droning chants go on and on. The saints mounted around the walls have mirrors in their abdomens etc.

When evangelical Protestant missionaries arrived in the area, they found fertile ground for disseminating their own beliefs and drawing portions of the population to their religious practices. The current community legacy as mentioned above is tantamount to a low level civil war, which occasionally flares into violence and murder.

The missionaries also provided medical supplies, treatment, schools etc.

For those people living in rural poverty, with little hope of prospects improving(the indigenous in Chiapas have faced a soaring birth-rate combined with decreasing lack of economic opportunity and a declining agricultural land base)
faith and attendence can be 'purchased'.

A beautiful and socially complicated place.

(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Dec 18, 2006, 10:19 AM)

Bubba

Dec 18, 2006, 10:19 AM

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Well I hate to be picky about the semantics here, but the term "excommunicated protestant" means they have been thrown out of the protestant church. I am simply commenting of the slip of the tongue. Bubba comes up with these things now and then. I find it endearing. I am not in any way making light of the seriousness of the situation of which you speak.

Ah, bfwpdx , ye of little faith. You are probably expecting that I will try to defend my use of the term, "excommunicated protestant" in the context of the complete sentence to which the term supposedly contributed but that´s because you are unaware of Bubba´s South Alabama history being from far distant PDX or thereabouts. Bubba is, in fact, an excommunicated Presbyterian from the South Alabama of the 1960s having questioned the sanctity of the doctrine of the Southern Presbyterian Conference that came into existence in the 1950s as a breakaway umbrella organization for white Presbyterians in the south determined to remove themselves from the yoke of oppression represented by the national Presbyterian organization which exhibited the affrontery of suggesting that racially segregated congregations were not in keeping with the teachings of the famous Jesus who may, God forbid, have been of black skin himself.

Well, anyway, the First Presbyterian Church of Greenville, Alabama was welcoming of all of the congregation´s black brethren in the community or from afar who might walk through the vestibule on any given Sunday as long as they sincerely wished to join their white brethren in their exceedingly boring ceremonies except that, it bacame necesssary to place a couple of goons at the door to prevent any "insincere" blacks from trying to enter as it was clear as the nose on your face that no "sincere" black would ever actually try to enter the church when the Methodist Hill AME Holy Roller black congregation was just a few blocks away. Actually, this makes sense to me since I had to suffer through endless hours of boring and formal sermons and unbearably off-key congregational hymns with Eleanor McKinnon´s booming, off-key voice overwhelming the rest of the singers to the point one wished to strangle that gordita with the nearest ball of twine but I digress.

It´s quite true that the Presbyterian Church does not formally excommunicate parishioners but when I started attacking them in my sophomoric way for their hypocrisy, I was about as welcome around there as Martin Luther King. Perhaps less welcome. People hate the truth about themselves (as do I), especially when it comes from those they consider to be of the flock..

By the way, a tidbit here. Most of the Lacandon Forest people converted to Presbyterianism long ago and thus became pariahs among their traditional Catholic neighbors and that´s one reason they are all killing each other.

Praise the Lord and Pass the Tortillas!

(This post was edited by Bubba on Dec 18, 2006, 10:32 AM)

jacpowell

Dec 18, 2006, 10:21 AM

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My impression is that the Chamulans are practicing what remains of their traditional Mayan ceremonies with only an overlay of Catholicism. I observed the same rituals you did, Wendy, and it appears to be Christian only because of the location and the saintly "decor". (The images are in glass cases because if people performed rituals in their honor and weren't justly rewarded, they would take retribution on the images. Since they're significantly old, it was decided by someone that they should be protected.) After several hundred years, there is an inevitable mixing of practices. In nearby Zinacantan, the priest still visits, but the Mayan thread is displayed at the same altars, and many similar practices take place -- all the candles and offerings, etc.

I gained an impression somewhere that it is illegal to evangelize in Mexico. I assume this pertains to non-Mexicans. This would not prevent Mexicans from evangelizing, of course. However, we did meet a group of Anglos in Oaxaca who were helping expand a Bible study center in a nearby village. Could it be possible that they were also talking up their religion at the same time? Is it possible they are the ones who built the study center in the first place? Could it be possible that perhaps they built a new school first, or perhaps the school that is there could use some upgrading?

Don't get me started! Christian prosetylizing and tourism development are the two greatest culture destroyers of the world.

My studies of northern New Mexico have shown me that when the Catholic Church reduced its "mysticism" by going "modern", it lost much of its attractiveness to the local folks. The inscrutability of Latin and the inaccessibility of the dogma by the common man was part of its attractiveness. So they have gone over to Pentecostal churches. Of course, the Presbyterians have a strong presence, too, because they had missions in New Mexico early on. I'm not sure how they're faring in this "mysticism vs transparency" issue, nor how strong attendance is at their churches.

So - Let's see - the topic here is Sex. Hmmmm. Sex and religion. Add in some politics and we've hit them all. Any other tabus? And, by the way, I believe Bubba is so coherent these days because it IS cold in SC, and therefore he has little else to do except wax eloquent. The more the better.

esperanza

Dec 18, 2006, 10:31 AM

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From Merriam-Webster Online. See second definition, please:

excommunication
One entry found for excommunication.
Main Entry: ex·com·mu·ni·ca·tion
Pronunciation: -"myü-n&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : an ecclesiastical censure depriving a person of the rights of church membership
2 : exclusion from fellowship in a group or community

These 'excommunicated Protestants' are converts to Protestantism who have been excommunicated from their Catholic and family fellowship and community.

/end semantic rant

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wendy devlin

Dec 18, 2006, 11:17 AM

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(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Dec 18, 2006, 12:58 PM)

wendy devlin

Dec 18, 2006, 11:56 AM

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>So - Let's see - the topic here is Sex. Hmmmm. Sex and religion. Add in some politics and we've hit them all. Any other tabus?

Well, I never met a taboo that wasn't worth... discussion.

However sex, religion and politics often lead to thread deletion or lock-down.
Keep it above the waist:)

>My impression is that the Chamulans are practicing what remains of their traditional Mayan ceremonies with only an overlay of Catholicism.

This could be. A Mexican friend and Catholic, from Guadalajara visited the Chamula church near the same time, as our visit. He was upset by the public display of what he called, 'paganism'. It galled him particularly, having to pay an entrance fee to the church. The man who collected at the door, the day of our visit, was quite ill-tempered to boot.

Some of those Chamulans are pretty good with a hefty stave. And more than one tourist has been killed for taking photos or having their camera confiscated.

In 1998 I wrote a little description of our experiences that day in Chamula.
Can't say if it would be the same there today.

http://www.mexconnected.com/...in/wdwalktalk13.html

Take the story as a small memory. And I was new to writing.

>I gained an impression somewhere that it is illegal to evangelize in Mexico. I assume this pertains to non-Mexicans.

Understand that there are ways around this. Evangelism is all over Mexico. Some of our present posters here and past ones have experiences with evangelism in Mexico. Maybe they'll describe their point of view.

>Don't get me started! Christian prosetylizing and tourism development are the two greatest culture destroyers of the world.

I won't. And it's not just Christians.
Some years back, Pope John Paul made comments about the exploitative nature of tourism among the developing nations. The comments rang bells with my experiences in Mexico.

Bubba

Dec 18, 2006, 12:30 PM

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It is a myth that tourists have been killed for taking pictures, lots of them got in trouble but not one person was ever killed for taking a picture.

wendy devlin

Dec 18, 2006, 12:59 PM

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>It is a myth that tourists have been killed for taking pictures, lots of them got in trouble but not one person was ever killed for taking a picture.

Evidence?

Bubba

Dec 18, 2006, 1:05 PM

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yes who got killed?

wendy devlin

Dec 18, 2006, 1:22 PM

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>This powerful folk myth is retold by many tourist shamans, in guidebooks.

Repeated then, in the Lonely Planet guidebook, at that time.

We were told that our cameras would be confiscated if we took photos at the Carnaval.

So what about the conversion of the formerly Protestant indigenous people to Islam?

Have you seen the mosque?

(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Dec 18, 2006, 1:28 PM)

jacpowell

Dec 18, 2006, 1:53 PM

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We went to Chamula with a local guide, Maria Hernandez (?) from Na Balom. She told us cameras were not allowed. Whether anyone is going to be killed or not, it is rude to take pictures when the locals don't want you to. And with folks thinking they might get killed, it's easier for the Chamulans not to have to confront folks. It is their turf after all, and the Chamulans are a popular topic for tourists and activists these days (and have been for quite some time), so perhaps they want to control how they get stared at and make a little money at the same time.

I think we were tolerated a bit more than independent tourists would have been, first because we weren't a busload (does that happen?) and second because they knew Maria was from nearby. Maria is a wonderful guide. Her information is good and solid, and she doesn't embroider it to make it flashier. She also a mayordomo for Zinacantan.
Sometime you should get her perspective on how expensive it is to be Mayan, what with all the candles and other trappings. This coincides with what I've been told by many Indians NOB.

We saw the local police marching in formation around the perimeter of the plaza, and I was definitely reminded of Oz then. Yoh, oh, yoh-oh-oh. (Or is that another movie?)

Rolly

Dec 18, 2006, 2:47 PM

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>I gained an impression somewhere that it is illegal to evangelize in Mexico. I assume this pertains to non-Mexicans.

Not true. There are many non-Mexicans doing it lawfully in Mexico. There is a special form of FM3 just for that purpose.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook

Bubba

Dec 18, 2006, 5:10 PM

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The story of the killings for taking photos is a good deterrent but some people still break the rule and it is pretty disgusting..Yes they do confiscate cameras and I would not want to be caught taking pictures in a small village.

Another thing the guides say is that the priests have been kicked out of the churches, I find it interesting as I have attended a mass a couple of times in Chamula. A priest was officiating and the mass was also attended by sisters from Mother Theresa´s order. Many chamulans were also praying in the traditional manner and a huge amount of tourists were spoiling the whole thing.
The church in Chamula is fabulous but if you want to have some pretty incredible experience in the churches you need to go to other villages than Chamula , if your timing is right you can have some beautiful experiences. There is no fee to enter the churches but it is always a good idea to ask if you can go in, you are always told yes but the asking prevents misunderstandings and shows respect.

I have a pretty good idea of how expensive it is to live in an indigenous village when you get nominated to a charge. Our friends just finished a 3 year charge in Teotitlan and it cost them a fortune. They get the respect of the community for it but boy do they pay for it.
The absolute rule is no pictures in the churches, no pictures of religious ceremonies and no pictures of people without asking. Some villagers will tell you you can take pictures outside and many people do but make sure someone does not think you are taking their picture.
If you wish to visit the back country do not take a camera, just enjoy meeting the locals and speaking with them . If you take a camera go by the village city hall and ask what the rules are.

Another good idea is to take public transportation, you will meet locals on the vans and get some fun stories, you will also arrive in the village with locals.

Thanks Wendy for reminding me I will have to check out the mosque in January.

Polygamy seems to be tolerated and there are converts to Islam as well, A Chamula told me that one of his friend was a muslim and had 5 wives: he brings them all to the Santo Domingo market every morning and picks them all up at night. Each wife has her own house and shares her money with her husband, he also said the man was rich...He also said he had no intention of converting and getting more wives as one was more than enough!

Brigitte

(This post was edited by Bubba on Dec 18, 2006, 5:31 PM)

wendy devlin

Dec 18, 2006, 6:02 PM

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Thanks brigette for your comments.

That couple that i mentioned earlier, described at length the practice of 'cargo' which you describe of your friends.

Although the position of 'cargo carrier' for the ceremonial period in question brings great prestige...it also often, nearly bankrupts the family. There is a great deal to purchase and things to be done...properly. Or so I was told.

We live on the edge of 'traditional territory' and share the public schools etc. with our indigenous neighbours. Kids here can learn a Coast Salish dialect or French in elementary school. Life is cross-cultural, although don't put too fine a spin on that concept.

Challenges abound.

Prudent practice to be mindful and respectfulof local mores and customs.
In 1993, thousands of indigenous were participating in their fiesta. Foreigners, it seemed, totally insignificant to the proceedings.

Always wanted to go back, learn more.

Being invited by people into their town, their homes is a wonderful privilege. Time spent in a small traditional village remain among the highlights of my life.

Since then, cultural tourism has increased in many parts of Mexico.

Maria mentioned by Jackie above has a long-standing good reputation as a guide or so...continually read on the LP.

I look forward to descriptions of who is who and what is what from our on-ground correspondents in San Cristobol.

Did they ever build that opera house?

(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Dec 18, 2006, 6:36 PM)

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