Oaxaca: Nov 6-7, 2006

Oaxaca: Nov 6-7, 2006

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I know this won't please everybody, but we're going to continue the daily idea at least for now. It avoids super-long threads (annoying to many users) and also acts to counterbalance the number of out-dated reports in the regular press.
I agree that the Chiapas discussion was well worthy of being continued, and will take a look and see if I can separate it out as a separate thread later today.

(This post was edited by tonyburton on Nov 7, 2006, 3:26 PM)

Nov 6, 2006, 7:36 AM

Post #2 of 30 (3963 views)

Re: [tonyburton] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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We recieved a call from my housemates' family in Santiago (Ocotlan area). There is a developing crisis around food... the prices have been going up to 9 pesos for a kilo of tortillas and 10 pesos for 4 tlyudas due to growing scarcity. But now the stores are running out of maize and sugar completely. People are harvesting corn that's still green because they cant buy maize.

It's very confusing to know who is preventing food from being distributed... most people believe it's APPO and the teachers barricades. I wonder if it isn't the government and PFP, or perhaps the government in collusion with the large distributors who import staple food supplies to Oaxaca.

In any case it's scary and has people worried about famine. If someone has the money and a private car they have a chance to go looking for food elsewhere, but most people don't and some families living on the edge are suffering already.

I'd be interested to hear from those in various areas of Oaxaca if they notice prices going way up or supplys of staple foods going down in the stores? Is this only happening outside the city? If there are places that this is not happening I'd like to tell them so perhaps they can get someone with a car to take them there to buy corn, sugar, etc. if they able to make it there. Thanks.

It's very unnerving to have people you know call and say they can't find food.

They also said is that the teachers came to the town and announced that classes would be starting this week confirming what other Mexconnect posters had reported.

(This post was edited by DoDi2 on Nov 6, 2006, 8:24 AM)

Bubba

Nov 6, 2006, 8:00 AM

Post #3 of 30 (3944 views)

Re: [tonyburton] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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Your call regarding the daily thread , Tony.

However, dondon´s comment made minutes before the Nov. 5th thread and the Nov. 6th thread initiated was illustrative of my point. Dodon´s comments were cogent and important and transcend daily segmentation yet they were relegated to yesterday´s news arbitrarily by that daily segmentation. I don´t want to put words in his mouth but his point regarding the complex political and social issues at play in Oaxaca and the foolishness of taking opinions proferred by naive extranjeros (including this one) as having any true factual basis was well made and had no more to do with Nov. 5th than the 6th or the 1st for that matter.

Because of the daily lock, dondon´s comments will not appear on this thread but on the Nov. 5th thread so I call attention to them for interested readers. I don´t always agree with dondon but his comments of Nov. 5th put things into perspective very well.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Nov 6, 2006, 8:02 AM)

Nov 6, 2006, 9:49 AM

Post #4 of 30 (3907 views)

Re: [Bubba] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

Dondon also says,

"Resolution of this problem is being handled in the Mexican way and this is quite foreign to those used to govts NOB."

Actually similar problems are not foreign to governments NOB, just foreign to the governments in the USA.
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Nov 6, 2006, 10:32 AM

Post #5 of 30 (3895 views)

Re: [arbon] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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Dondon also called them "professional demonstrators".

This looks like an awful lot of "professional demonstrators"....

Nov 6, 2006, 10:44 AM

Post #6 of 30 (3887 views)

Re: [DoDi2] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

That "goodly number" of marchers would fill a futbol stadium.
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(This post was edited by arbon on Nov 6, 2006, 10:46 AM)

geri

Nov 6, 2006, 12:24 PM

Post #7 of 30 (3865 views)

Re: [arbon] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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No single camera shot can capture the size of the demonstrations here. What you see in this photo is a mere segment. I personally saw the march of 100,000 in June. People were 10 across marching for HOURS. That's the one where a guy was shot for pissing on someone's lawn and then the protestors burned the house down, I believe. I don't think there is anything comparable NOB to the peace "marches for change" that are occurring in Oaxaca. And, no major "incidents" yesterday that I've heard of. I haven't seen an "official" count of marchers, if there is such a thing. These are definitely not professional protestors. These are people with a sincere belief in injustices over a long period of time.

Nov 6, 2006, 12:42 PM

Post #8 of 30 (3858 views)

Re: [geri] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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geri, in the US there are ~~news~~ disinformation reports that the march was made up of "20,000 leftists". Most of the reports are ~~reporting~~ parroting a figure of 20,000.

Here's CNN for example:

"The explosions came a day after more than 20,000 leftists from across Mexico marched in the southern city of Oaxaca to demand the withdrawal of federal police who were sent in on October 29 to end violence linked to a five-month protest against the state's governor, Ulises Ruiz. Demonstrators claim Ruiz, a PRI member, rigged the 2004 elections and uses thugs to repress dissent."

Meanwhile reports in Noticias de Oaxaca point out that the 12 kilometer long march took a full hour from the first marchers until the last arrived in Santo Domingo plaza.

Maybe someone with crowd estimation abilities could calculate how many hundreds of thousands of marchers that works out to be.

(This post was edited by DoDi2 on Nov 6, 2006, 12:56 PM)

Ron Pickering W3FJW

Nov 6, 2006, 1:13 PM

Post #9 of 30 (3844 views)

Re: [DoDi2] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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If, as Dodi said the marchers were 10 abreast, assuming 1 meter between ranks, there would be 120,000 marchers. This is simplifying it somewhat so one can assume the total would be about 160,000 marchers or more as the distance between ranks is surely less than 1 meter......

OQ/ 'Scuse me Dodi, I got Geris figure (10 abreast) mixed up in there somehow. However, your clarification on the numbers should be very close.
Getting older and still not down here.

(This post was edited by Ron Pickering W3FJW on Nov 6, 2006, 1:40 PM)

Nov 6, 2006, 1:17 PM

Post #10 of 30 (3841 views)

Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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Thanks Ron. But from the picture it looks like there were at least 25 abreast.

So your figure would have to be multiplied 2.5 times.

And as you say the 1 meter is too much for just one line.. I'd say give 2 lines in 1 meter so take the whole result and multiply by 2... i.e. about 800,000 people.

That fits the claims that it was almost a million strong.

Also I want to make sure... the hour wasn't how long the march took, for instance it didn't measure the amount of time for the first wave to leave the starting point and arrive at the end.

Rather it's the amount of time between the first arrival in the plaza and the last arrival in the plaza. From my experiance participating in large marches, an hour for that measurement is HUGE.

(This post was edited by DoDi2 on Nov 6, 2006, 1:20 PM)

pat

Nov 6, 2006, 2:27 PM

Post #11 of 30 (3820 views)

Re: [arbon] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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"Imagine being born in the United States ... oof!"

Huh?

pat

Nov 6, 2006, 2:41 PM

Post #12 of 30 (3812 views)

Re: [pat] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

I think my grandma is quoting (envious LOL) Mexican president Fox.

http://www.mexiconews.com.mx/miami/vi_21661.html
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Bubba

Nov 6, 2006, 2:49 PM

Post #13 of 30 (3808 views)

Re: [geri] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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These are definitely not professional protestors. These are people with a sincere belief in injustices over a long period of time.

Well, Dondon:

That remarkable observation added to the taking of your comment about professional protestors out of context and a few hilarious attempts to estimate the size of the crowd prove your point better than your post could have done.

All we need now is Sacha Baron Cohen to come here and report to us on Borat: Cultural Learnings of Oaxaca for Make benefit Glorious Subculture of American Dingbat Expatriates.*

* A group in which I include myself and all other self-parodying posters hereabouts.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Nov 6, 2006, 2:57 PM)

Nov 6, 2006, 3:01 PM

Post #14 of 30 (3802 views)

I think you are right Ron, Carling does come to mind.
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Nov 6, 2006, 5:26 PM

Post #20 of 30 (3741 views)

Re: [arbon] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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OK. Well if I were forced to pick I'd have to say Minnie Pearl.

Rolly

Nov 6, 2006, 5:37 PM

Post #21 of 30 (3732 views)

Re: [DoDi2] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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The picture in my mind is Oscar Lavant. Anyone remember him?

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook

esperanza

Nov 6, 2006, 5:40 PM

Post #22 of 30 (3729 views)

Re: [Rolly] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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Minnie Pearl! Oscar Levant! A match made in heaven!

I'm falling off my chair laughing. You guys are fabulous. You're both right...Bubba's got everything but the price tag dangling from his hat.

http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Oscar_Levant/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnie_Pearl

Edited to make the links clickable -rb

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

(This post was edited by Rolly on Nov 6, 2006, 5:54 PM)

waltw

Nov 6, 2006, 6:19 PM

Post #23 of 30 (3709 views)

Re: [Bubba] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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No doubt it's pretentious for a bunch of expats to be sitting around, trying to make sense of Mexican politics, much less forming opinions.

But I dunno. I prefer it to threads over what hotel to stay at in San Miguel, even if our discussions are flawed and a bit naive.

And if you're living in Oaxaca right now and watching the smoke rise from burning buses from the rooftop, trying to understand what the heck's going on is sort of a natural, human reaction. :)

waltw

Nov 6, 2006, 7:11 PM

Post #24 of 30 (3690 views)

Re: [DoDi2] Oaxaca: Nov 6, 2006

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It's very confusing to know who is preventing food from being distributed... most people believe it's APPO and the teachers barricades. I wonder if it isn't the government and PFP, or perhaps the government in collusion with the large distributors who import staple food supplies to Oaxaca.

I spoke to a few food vendors early on, inside Oaxaca City at the mercados. They stated that they were having difficulty receiving food shipments, because of the roadblocks the teachers and APPO had set up. If the trucks were delayed too long at the road blocks, then the food spoils. I haven't noticed any sudden spikes in the cost of produce within the city, though.

Bubba

Nov 6, 2006, 7:29 PM

Post #25 of 30 (3676 views)