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tlorenz

Sep 21, 2003, 2:15 PM

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Guide Dogs for the Blind

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Greetings all: I posted a long time ago regarding guide dogs in Mexico. We have wanted to come and visit there for a long time, and are at a point where we may finally be able to do so. My husband is legally blind, and uses a guide dog for assistance. We know that there won't be the ADA laws there for access, and that we will have to learn a whole new way of life with his guide while in Mexico.

We think (tell me if we are correct!) that we may have better luck with access issues in an area where there are so many North Americans. We are hoping that if we are in the area for a while, he will be able to go more easily with his guide, find more accomodation to the presence of his guide by virtue of the fact that they become known, and the reliability of the training his dog has will be accepted. True of false?? For example, here in the U.S., his guide dog lies quietly under the table when we are in restaurants, never makes a sound, does not move around, and does not pay any attention to the food. It is very easy to forget he is even there. We are hoping we will be able to find at least a few restaurants that would not mind his presence when they understand that he is an assist dog for my husband's disability.

The biggest concern is his guide dog's safety, as we know there are a lot of stray dogs in Mexico, and that the culture does not necessarily place the value on dogs that many of us in the U.S. do. When his dog is working in harness, he is trained to ignore other dogs. So one question is, if he/we were to be menaced by stray dog(s), does my husband have the right to protect himself and his guide; i.e. if he had to kick the stray dog to keep it away from his guide, or if he whacked the stray with his walking stick to protect his guide, would he be thrown into a Mexican prison, never to be seen or heard from again?? We have had a few experiences in a border town, where three dogs ran out of an alley and were ready to pounce on his guide, and my husband did actually have to kick at them to get them to slow down, while we hurried away.

We have noticed that in Arizona, a lot of the Mexican people are nervous or afraid of his guide when they go past us in a store. His guide is a beautiful dog, a purebred golden lab, very large, about 100 pounds, and the other extreme is that everyone wants to pet him, which is not supposed to happen when the dog is working. We realize that rule will probably get bent quite a bit there too, but we can deal with that.

So, at this point, this is the biggest deciding factor in how much time we can spend in Mexico, and how comfortable it will be. These dogs are worth a lot of money, as they have about $50,000 invested in their breeding and training over the course of their careers (about 8 years working usually). He certainly isn't going to be tied to a tree outside while we sip margaritas! And more importantly, he is a very dear part of our family, and we don't want anything to happen to him.

Another idea we had would be to hire an interpreter to accompany us around town for a day or two, to introduce and explain his guide dogs to local merchants, dentists, etc. and see if that would help ease the transition. We found, for example, that in the border town, one dental office didn't bat an eye when we went in with his guide and kept him with us during a procedure. Another dentist got very nervous, and insisted that I sit outside with his guide, so that she wouldn't get in trouble from the local authorities for having a dog in her office. She just couldn't seem to understand his purpose as a guide, so perhaps some education would help pave the way.

So, anything you can share with us regarding this rather unusual issue would be appreciated. Are we crazy to try and spend an extended period of time there? Thanks for any help.

Rolly

Sep 21, 2003, 2:49 PM

Post #2 of 21 (1450 views)

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Re: [tlorenz] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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It seems to me that the idea of having a bilingual person make the rounds with you to introduce you and the dog to various local stores and restaurants is a good plan. My guess is that you will find most people very accommodating once they understand the need for the dog and his sweet disposition.

As for fending off the street dogs -- do what you need to do and don't worry about someone taking umbrage. People routinely hit, kick, thrown things at street dogs -- often without any provocation at all. Aggressive street dogs don't usually last long; most are easily shooed away.

One additional thought: Bicycles are very common here. Has your dog been exposed to bicycles in the street? He will encounter many here.

I predict you will have a great visit.

Rolly Pirate

E-visit me http://Rollybrook.com
On Facebook as Rolly Brook

Kip

Sep 21, 2003, 3:02 PM

Post #3 of 21 (1445 views)

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Re: [tlorenz] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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Hi,

I don't know about Ajijic, but in Acapulco the only problem I had when I took my baby Coati Mundi to a particular restaurant was that the boxer at the next table wanted to eat her, I do mean the canine kind not Mike Tyson.

Kip
kip

(This post was edited by Kip on Sep 21, 2003, 3:46 PM)

tlorenz

Sep 21, 2003, 3:22 PM

Post #4 of 21 (1442 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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Hi, thanks for the quick response. Yes, he is very well trained in regards to anything that trys to run my husband down! These dogs are truly amazing in their training. At one point during their training at the school in California, they send a "special" driver out into the community of San Rafael, to literally try and mow down the hapless students as they are working with their dogs. The van prowls the downtown looking for the students, and then races at them, backs quickly out of driveways in their path, etc. to make sure the dogs will display "intelligent disobedience" and keep their masters safe. He is even leary of the big floor cleaners (like Zamboni's) in Wal-mart. His dog is trained for anything to do with uneven surfaces, sidewalks, holes in the road, obstacles...and that includes careening bicycles!

sfmacaws

Sep 21, 2003, 4:32 PM

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Re: [tlorenz] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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I live a couple miles from San Rafael and have watched them train the guide dogs for years, it's amazing.

Although I'm not familiar with the Lake Chapala area, everywhere I've been in Mexico the restaurants allow dogs inside with their owners. They will chase the street dogs out but if the dog is with a paying customer, it's allowed. In fact, I've read many a gringo complaint about dogs in restaurants. It's one of those things where I just don't understand what the problem is. If it's not eating off my plate, I don't think it's any of my business. But, some people are always looking for something to complain about. That type shouldn't bother you as they are to my knowledge always Americans and they will know that your dog is a working dog. I can't imagine the Mexicans giving you any grief about it.

I can see that in a medical situation like the dentist, perhaps they didn't want dog hair in the filling? Or, perhaps she was afraid that the dog was a guard dog and would misinterpret what she was doing to your husband? Other than that, I've seen dogs in almost every kind of store except the large grocery chains or the Costco type stores, that might just take an explanation. Perhaps you could get a spanish speaker to write down a short explanation and you could print out cards to give anyone who questions you?

Jonna

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

esperanza

Sep 21, 2003, 8:07 PM

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Re: [tlorenz] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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Will you be visiting Ajijic? If so, rest assured that your husband's guide dog will not be the first one to arrive here. Another couple, both of whom are legally blind, visit here for several months every year. The woman walks with a guide dog in harness; the man uses a cane. All three~man, woman, and dog~are well accepted and get around just fine. If I see them around town in the next little while, I'll ask them for some input for you.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Uncle Donnie

Sep 21, 2003, 8:13 PM

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Re: [sfmacaws] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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I recently returned from medical treatment in Dallas and at the hospital I met a guy who had a beautiful gray giant Poodle as a seeing-eye dog. On his harness he had the "Working Dog" sign with the request not to pet him. Perhaps you might consider having one made up in Spanish.

As for the restaurants, here in Ajijic many of the places have yielded to gringo pressures to ban dogs but there is no way I could imagine them not allowing you in with your husband's helper. And I don't eat in those places anymore anyway because there are plenty who do allow your pets. In most other places I've visited there's no problem.

Your idea about having someone inform the folks in Spanish is excellent. You'll quickly discover how warm and cooperative our hosts are. Come down, leave your worries up there.

And to add to what Rolly said, one of the most effective dog deterrents in most places is to bend down as though you're picking up a rock. Street dogs understand that move. Or just go ahead and smack 'em with a stick.

Shameless self-promotion:
http://www.headformexico.com

sfmacaws

Sep 21, 2003, 8:35 PM

Post #8 of 21 (1393 views)

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Re: [Uncle Donnie] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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As for the restaurants, here in Ajijic many of the places have yielded to gringo pressures to ban dogs

Ugh! They want to live in another country and then they want to make it just like home. I don't have a dog now but I wouldn't eat there either. Similarly, I don't smoke but I resent the no smoking rules that apply to outdoor areas like plaza cafes in the states. That's probably starting in Ajijic too.

Drifting off the topic, I have always wished for a 'no kids' zone in restaurants and airplanes. It seems to be my karma to be stuck next to some squalling brat everytime I go out to eat in the good old USA. Similarly, I always have an ill behaved child behind me on a plane, screaming or kicking my seat for hours. I'm not very sympathetic about this as I don't remember allowing my one child to act like that. I do remember getting up and leaving restaurants when he wouldn't behave. Anyway, my kinder friends always told me that the poor parents couldn't help it, etc. Well, I've NEVER had that happen in Mexico. The children do not scream during dinner at a restaurant, they don't scream much at all that I've ever noticed. On airplanes, the mexican children don't scream, they don't kick the seat, and they seem fascinated by the little gringo kids who are. The mexican mothers must be doing something right and it obviously is the US mothers who are doing something wrong. My personal preference would be to allow smoking and dogs and no kids. /rant

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

tlorenz

Sep 22, 2003, 7:40 AM

Post #9 of 21 (1366 views)

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Re: [Uncle Donnie] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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Yes, Esperanza, we would be visiting Ajijic. If you see the couple, please do inquire for us, we would appreciate it. We are encouraged by the replies, and feeling that this is not as impossible as we have feared! And Rolly, as for the children, we agree! We have often commented that Ron's guide dog is more predictable and better behaved than the majority of children that we see here in the U.S. We have been at dinner, and watched as the parents let the child literally stand on the table while waiting for their meal, or straddle the top of the booth like they were riding a horse. I wonder what the parents think they are actually teaching the child when they allow this behavior?

As for his guide dog, he does have a sign on his harness, but I hadn't thought of having one of this done in Spanish too, an excellent idea! We can start here, as we are in Yuma, and only a few miles from the border town of Algodones.

His dog eats Eukanaba Maintenance Small Bite dry dog food. I assume we would need to bring plenty with us, as it might be unavailable there, or more expensive?

pathall

Sep 22, 2003, 8:40 AM

Post #10 of 21 (1350 views)

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Re: [tlorenz] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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I have seen Eukanuba Maintenance dry dog food for sale in the vet's office in San Miguel de Allende. I don't know if it is available widely elsewhere in Mexico.

Uncle Donnie

Sep 22, 2003, 8:47 AM

Post #11 of 21 (1349 views)

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Re: [tlorenz] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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Eukanuba is available locally, both at several stores in Ajijic and in Chapala. I'll check today when I go to town that the Small Bite is available and get you a price. The local places, I can think of at least 5 offhand, have an excellent selection of pet care products as well as a wide variety of food and supplements.

Your dog will be well supplied locally, and there are a number of very well trained and well equipped veterinarians. Needed inoculations and medicines will be available, as well as professional grooming services. That big boy won't be deprived or inconvenienced in any way after the move. And some of the pet stores will deliver to your house, and many of the vets make house calls. Can it get any better?

There's even home delivery for a variety of human food too.

Shameless self-promotion:
http://www.headformexico.com

jennifer rose

Sep 22, 2003, 9:42 AM

Post #12 of 21 (1337 views)

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Re: [pathall] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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Yes, Eukanuba, Science Diet, Pro Plan and a host of other deluxe dog alimentations are available just about everywhere in Mexico where there's demand. And most veterinarians and veterinary supply houses can order a variety of flavors.

Nutibuddy

Sep 24, 2003, 12:35 AM

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Re: [tlorenz] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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I also have a service dog and I bought him a vest from SitStay.com. They have sew-on patches that will say Service Dog, another Please Don't Pet Me, I'm Working and another Ask to Pet Me, I'm Friendly. I am not sure if they can put these in Spanish, but this may help people not be "Afraid or nervous" as you stated. The comic strip that they have is really cute too on the site.

Good luck & happy travels to you and your husband. Take care.

Kathleen :) :) :)

Uncle Donnie

Sep 24, 2003, 4:18 PM

Post #14 of 21 (1252 views)

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Re: [Nutibuddy] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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Apologies for the delay in providing this info. I checked two places for Eukanuba Adult Maintenance Small Bite dog food. At the "Cow" in Ajijic it was 482 pesos (about US $48) and at the pet store beside Seigrid's pet grooming place in Riberas it was 484 pesos. These prices are for a 33 lb. bag.

So yes, it IS available in this area. Come on down.

And Kathleen, it's good to know about the vest. It's amazing what they make to help us with our pet related problems.

Shameless self-promotion:
http://www.headformexico.com

karla659

Sep 26, 2003, 7:12 AM

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Hello. I visited a blind couple in a less affluent area of the DF recently and they told me that they cannot use guide dogs because the dogs are trained in Chicago and when they come down to Mexico they don't know what to do when cars are parked on the sidewalk. (I don't myself remember so many cars being parked on the sidewalk in Mexico).

tlorenz

Sep 26, 2003, 1:33 PM

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Re: [karla659] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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Hope this doesn't post twice...I lost the one I was writing. Anyway, no problem for Ron's dog. He was trained at Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael, CA, IMHO the finest facility of its kind in the country. His dog would know just what to do with a car on the sidewalk (assuming it wasn't moving!) STOP, approach slowly, "show" Ron the obstacle, and then guide Ron safely around it.

These dogs are truly amazing, he can even "find the ATM" if there is one in the general vicinity, can ride up or down on escalators, and can find ME if we are in different parts of a store.

Another place we haven't discussed, but his dog is trained to lie quietly under Ron's feet on a bus. Would we be allowed on a bus there? (a nice one, not the kind of live goats and chickens!)

jrice

Sep 26, 2003, 9:16 PM

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Re: [tlorenz] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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I don't think there would be a problem with acceptance of a guide dog anywhere in Mexico -- personal exceptions excluded. In general people are very flexible and understanding. Many situations that would require an explanation in the U.S. would be no problem here.

It might be useful, if at all possible, to inquire about how Mexican schools train their dogs. Just as there is a cultural difference for humans, I'd bet that the smells, structures, movements, etc., are different for dogs. Automotive behavior is not as predictable in Mexico, for example -- it's pretty common in some areas to have people running the wrong way down one-day streets.

I'd worry about people IN their cars and rely on people OUT of their cars.

As some other good folks mentioned, vets are ecstatic to provide you with Eukanuba in most areas. I'd bet they'd be overjoyed to accomodate you if you find an area where they don't normally stock it, since the stuff tends to cost more than raw steak and many vets don't make a great living.

This would probably not apply to you, but we've found that vets in Mexico often serve as hotels -- are happy to put a dog up for a night or two. If worst comes to worst in a strange place, and you have to stay in a dog-unfriendly hotel, that might be a brief option.

Cheers.

Sep 26, 2003, 9:47 PM

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Re: [tlorenz] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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I'm surprised that Marlene hasn't mentioned this, but there's a gentleman on the Yahoo MazInfo group who has a guide dog and says that he, wife, and dog spend 5-6 months of the year in Mazatlan (they're somewhere in northern Arizona right now). Unfortunately if you don't already have a Yahoo Groups membership you'll need to sign up for one (it's free, but Yahoo Groups is an exceptionally clumsy hybrid of a listserver and a web-based discussion board) and join the group in order to search the message database. By searching on the string "guide dog" you'll get several hits from which you can figure out the user's "handle"; searching on the handle will yield a raft more postings including several in which he mentions issues with the dog in Mazatlan.

tlorenz

Sep 26, 2003, 10:31 PM

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Re: [ET] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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This is all such great and encouraging information, and we appreciate it so much. If anyone knows more about the man in Maz with a guide dog, we would love to correspond with him.

I'll try the yahoo (can you say that without the "yodel...yahooooooooo?") Hope I can navigate through it...Yahoo for Dummies.

Keeping our fingers crossed that we get our property sold.

Sep 26, 2003, 11:35 PM

Post #20 of 21 (1149 views)

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Re: [tlorenz] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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his is all such great and encouraging information, and we appreciate it so much. If anyone knows more about the man in Maz with a guide dog, we would love to correspond with him.

I'd suggest joining the group first, searching the existing message base, and reading the gentleman's posts first. He may have already answered some of your questions. As a member of YahooGroups you'll also be able to send him a private message.

Marlene

Sep 27, 2003, 7:46 AM

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Re: [ET] Guide Dogs for the Blind

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Sorry, I just made my way into this thread. Indeed there IS a nice fellow, along with nice wife and nice guide dog that winter in Mazatlan. At first he had some difficulties but now the shops and restaurants know him and the dog and things seem to be going more smoothly for him. (There was a learning curve involved and I suspect he could have been a pioneer in this area) I will do my best to put him in touch with you, especially if you are thinking of coming to Mazatlan. A lot depends on where you go in Mexico, but every bit of information helps. Look for a private email from me.