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gloomis

Oct 26, 2006, 8:49 AM

Post #1 of 44 (2950 views)

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Border Fence

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Read this morning, Bush signed a bill to build a 700 mile fence along the border of our southern states. I find this truely unbelievable. I wonder how the Mexicans will take the news?



Brian

Oct 26, 2006, 8:56 AM

Post #2 of 44 (2941 views)

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Re: [gloomis] Border Fence

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I just hope that if the Democrats do take control of Congress that one of their priorities will be to help Bush pass a guest worker program.

Brian


ignacio

Oct 26, 2006, 9:11 AM

Post #3 of 44 (2934 views)

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Re: [gloomis] Border Fence

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Someone wrote about the fence bill just signed:

"I wonder how the Mexicans will take the news?"

When there's a will, there's a way.... from both sides of the fence.

When the large farm owners and corporations need more fruit and vegetable pickers, be assured that 'Homeland Security' will be watching somewhere else (turning a blind eye), while the needed workers happily slip by.

This is all a game, and the 'boogie man' won't be so boogie when his labour is needed.



(This post was edited by ignacio on Oct 26, 2006, 9:33 AM)


Gayla

Oct 26, 2006, 9:21 AM

Post #4 of 44 (2928 views)

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Re: [gloomis] Border Fence

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Yes, a 700 mile long fence that will take 7 years to build at a cost of $7 Billion. There is already a double fence along the San Diego/Tijuana corridor and while it has slowed the flow of illegal immigration it hasn't really put that much of a dent in it. Nor has dramatically increasing the number of Border Patrol agents stemmed the flow. In fact, the number of illegal aliens successfully getting across the border actually increased in spite of substantially more agents. Source of the information? The INS. So now a triple fence will be in place, making the world's busiest border crossing all but impossible for the normal, law abiding citizen of either country.

Another interesting factoid that appeared in the San Diego Union/Tribune this week. Corruption among INS and Border Patrol agents is rampant and is now being seen as a threat to National security according to both the INS and Department of Homeland Security. This is the first recognition I've seen in the American press that corruption is a two-way street. INS and DHS both give similar reasons for the increase in corruption on this side of the border - Greed. Border Patrol and INS agents understand what coyotes do; that there is money to be made in the transportation of human flesh.

It's not strictly an American or a Mexican problem, and until the two governments can find a way to begin dealing with the core and root issues, systemic changes won't happen. Fences aren't the answer, nor is refusal or inability to provide viable economic opportunities so that people don't have to try and cross.

And I'll stop at that since this is not a political discuss forum.


(This post was edited by Gayla on Oct 26, 2006, 9:22 AM)


Bloviator

Oct 26, 2006, 10:15 AM

Post #5 of 44 (2907 views)

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Re: [gloomis] Border Fence

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Please do not be critical. This fence is truly a marvel. Seven hundred miles of fence to be built with no funds - they did not fund it.

It's like the 8 billion in "compasionate Conservative" funds for helping the poor - that turned out to be maybe 20 million, not all of which was ever allocated.


Don


Oct 26, 2006, 10:39 AM

Post #6 of 44 (2901 views)

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Re: [gloomis] Border Fence

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Mexico is working on the problem now. See attachment.
Attachments: Fence.doc (81.0 KB)


donemry

Oct 26, 2006, 10:51 AM

Post #7 of 44 (2894 views)

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Re: [dlyman6500] Border Fence

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May I refer you to this article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...AR2006100501935.html

So when is a fence not a fence?


mxriko1

Oct 27, 2006, 1:36 PM

Post #8 of 44 (2812 views)

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Re: [gloomis] Border Fence

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Hello Everybody

If the U S A wants to do something intelligent they should build their wall along the Golf Coast to protect American Citizens from the next Hurricane and storm surge, now that would be constructive.

To build a wall or fence between to friendly Countries is anti democracy it is a slap in the face to Mexico and it is just Damm wrong!

Economic Development in Mexico is the only solution. Mexico is the USA's number two trading partner in the world now as it is. Thank you.

Richrd J Simpson
President
International Border Relations Mexico tours 4u


Goody2shs

Oct 29, 2006, 12:13 PM

Post #9 of 44 (2731 views)

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Re: [mxriko1] Border Fence

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You don't understand, they don't want Mexicans to multiply and become a majority!!! Getting pretty close though.


mxriko1

Oct 29, 2006, 1:09 PM

Post #10 of 44 (2712 views)

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Re: [Goody2shs] Border Fence

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Hello Goody2shs

Although you probably do not intend to be racist, your comments certainly are. this site is for Mexico Travel ,, Culture and business.
Most people on this site love Mexico and the wonderful Mexican People. If you have a problem with over population take that up with the Vatican ( Catholic Church ) which by the way I am one of. I am also related to Mexicans, not only be heart by by blood.
If I can help you in any way to understand Mexico better, please let me know.

Saludos

Richard


Goody2shs

Oct 29, 2006, 3:43 PM

Post #11 of 44 (2686 views)

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Re: [mxriko1] Border Fence

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Dear mexriko1 and others: I certainly am not racist and never intended to sound that way. If I touched someone's sensibilities in that regard, please let me apologize. However, I would like all of you to think for a moment, and be honest with yourselves, why a country has borders to begin with. I believe the way to enter a country is to do it legally and with respect for that country and its laws and citizens. Similar to entering someone's house. You do not simply barge in and after some time has elapsed you begin to demand things that you have not properly earned. The same applies to me and others wishing to enter Mexico. We certainly are not allowed to sneak in somewhere out in the wilderness without proper identification or papers (lots of them no less! detailed stuff, copies upon copies, proof of income, etc. etc.) and start working and living there. I shudder to think what would happen if any of us tried that trick and got caught. The American government has been very lenient in the past and has always treated illegals with kindness and generosity. I doubt very much that such kindness would be shown towards us if we decided to simply enter their country the same way as they do the U.S.

There also has to be respect for a country's reasons for curbing an onslaught of foreigners - no matter what they may be. No explanations necessary. We would not question Mexico's reasons either for making us get FM3's, menaje de casas, import stickers for our cars, expensive insurance, and so on. They have the right to impose those rules as it is THEIR country and we must obey and be grateful to be permitted to enter and enjoy its beauty and the people.

Perhaps you now understand what I was trying to convey.


Mark Landes

Oct 29, 2006, 6:26 PM

Post #12 of 44 (2650 views)

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Re: [Goody2shs] Border Fence

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I think the US government is also worried about a 'dirty bomb' getting across the southern border and that is a primary reason both the Canadian and southern borders are being improved.
Mark


Mexicanbill

Oct 30, 2006, 5:08 AM

Post #13 of 44 (2618 views)

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Re: [Goody2shs] Border Fence

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I couldn't agree with you more about both sides having the right to make their own rules about such things as FM3's, right to work rules, limits to what you can bring in and out of the country etc. etc..and needing many copies of many different papers to complete the process....
the difference is: This past week I was able to get a police background check on myself, a doctors report on a clean bill of health on myself, and a bank statement as to my income, a couple of passport photos and then walk into the Mexican Consulate, give them, the $134.00 and get an FM3
on the other hand, about six years ago, my wife and I did all the paper work to bring family up from Mexico, Paid the US government about the same amount in fees and still we wait for the papers to be processed...The government has the money, over five years, "interest free" and still our families wait in Mexico to cross over legally. We are only one family among thousands that are "going through the process" While our family waits in Mexico to get the O.K. from the U.S. to come over, their neighbors slip up here, work the crops, return sob and continue to build a nice little farm..slipping back nob ever year to get more money.
So how do you tell all those wishing to do it legally that they should just wait, when we appear to be at least 6 or more years behind in processing our paperwork...
I don't even want to think about the millions of "interest free" fees the government has collected and held for years, maybe that's the money they plan to use to build the fence....
Chef William aka MexicanBill


Don Moore


Oct 30, 2006, 6:49 AM

Post #14 of 44 (2594 views)

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Re: [Goody2shs] Border Fence

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With all due respect. Tell it to the Blackfeet, the Sioux or the Cheyenne.
Don Moore


tony


Oct 30, 2006, 8:06 AM

Post #15 of 44 (2575 views)

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Re: [Goody2shs] Border Fence - Entering Mexico

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Hello,
Tell me if I am wrong but Mexico DOES allow people from NOB to cross INTO their territory
freely. All the times I crossed into Mexico I was waived through without showing any papers
at all. FYI this does create a huge problem for Mexico as people running from the
law can "escape". Also Guns from the US are smuggled in. Once you are in Mexico,
you can live, work etc. - albiet illegally. remember Mexico
doesn't have the Big Brother technology that the US has. Living almost undetected
is alot easier in Mexico than in the US and many people do... "Remember "americans"
can and do immigrate illegally also.

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."


pat

Oct 30, 2006, 9:08 AM

Post #16 of 44 (2550 views)

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Re: [tony] Border Fence - Entering Mexico

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"Remember "americans" can and do immigrate illegally also."

I’m not trying to start a food fight here, but how many "Americans" do you think live and work illegally in Mexico, Tony? Is the number anywhere near the millions of Mexicans that live and work illegally in the USA? Of course not. And that, quite simply, drives the difference in border crossing/immigration policies between the two countries.

I don’t see an easy solution to your family’s specific immigration situation. The current push to tighten the US borders and establish a viable guest worker program probably isn't going to make it any easier for members of your family to enter the USA. I don't see immigration lines getting any shorter, any time soon. With no change in the economic balance between the USA and Mexico, there will always be more people wanting to immigrate (legally and illegally) than the USA is willing to accept.

In the final analysis, the ability to provide a solution that best serves the Mexican people lies with the Mexican government.


pat

Oct 30, 2006, 9:12 AM

Post #17 of 44 (2548 views)

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Re: [tony] Border Fence - Entering Mexico

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Sorry, Tony. It was Mexicobill who mentioned the difficulty his family had entering the USA. Most of my remarks concerning the difficulty of Mexicans entering the USA were meant to be directed to him.... sorry.

Pat


Papirex


Oct 30, 2006, 9:23 AM

Post #18 of 44 (2543 views)

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Re: [tony] Border Fence - Entering Mexico

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Tony, It is true that a foreigner can cross the Mexican border into the free zone with ease, but without a visa, etc. Once they go further onto México, or after 72 hours they are illegal.

Living in México illegally can be done, but it is not easy, especially if a person needs to work to stay here. You will be asked to show your visa, or proof of Mexican citizenship every time you turn around here. If you want to rent a nice house you will need to show proof of identity.

We have had to pledge the title to a house in Mexico City three times when leasing houses in Cuernavaca to guarantee that we will pay the rent. Renting houses is done differently in tourist areas, but you will need a steady outside income to pay the generally higher rents in those areas.

If you want to have electric service, a telephone, or a cell phone in your name, you will need to show identity approved by The Mexican Government. If you manage to get a Mexican drivers license without showing a visa, Mexican drivers licenses are not a valid form of identity here, although some businesses will accept them.

Even my Mexican wife needs to show her Mexican voters card here for many transactions, it is accepted as proof of her Mexican citizenship.

It goes without saying that if you drive an American plated car here without a temporary import sticker on it, you will eventually get nailed.

As for working here illegally, being fluent in Spanish would almost always be requisite and it must be remembered that the Mexican minimum wage is generally the highest wage a person can hope for, and many employers pay less than the minimum. Without papers a person will surely make much less than the minimum. Most Americans cannot live on $10 Dollars a day or less even here.

The standard workweek in México is usually 10 hours per day and usually 6 days per week. If an employee needs to work more hours than that to finish a task, no extra pay is usually given, they are generally paid by the day, not the hour. Without an education, or a profession, this is a tough place to make a living for a worker.

The possession of an illegal firearm, or even a single bullet means mandatory prison time here. Only in the movies can a criminal race across the Canadian or Mexican border and be home free.

As I said, it can be done, but it certainly is not easier than living in The U.S. illegally.

Rex




"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo


ignacio

Oct 30, 2006, 9:31 AM

Post #19 of 44 (2539 views)

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Re: [pat] Border Fence - Entering Mexico

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Another fact that Mr. 'goodie-two-shoes' is conveniently ignoring is the fact that some 25 to 30% of the land now claimed to belong to the USA, and where the border fence is being built, belonged to Mexico...... until a shady deal, under the gun, was concocted by the USA to 'purchase' that land in one case, and in another stealing it 'fair and square' via the phony independence and attachment of Texas.

So it is OK to do things illegally when it fits your needs, but not the other way around..... what is good for the goose is good for the gander !

For those not wanting to believe that these lands were stolen, let's just see today's example of the current administration going into war, deposing an elected government, and invading another county under complete and total lies.


(This post was edited by ignacio on Oct 30, 2006, 10:49 AM)


Bubba

Oct 30, 2006, 9:39 AM

Post #20 of 44 (2535 views)

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Re: [RexC] Border Fence - Entering Mexico

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You will be asked to show your visa, or proof of Mexican citizenship every time you turn around here.

Interesting point Rex.

We are both FM-2 holders and have never been asked to show our visas in five years but, of course, we have not crossed the border. I suppose I had to show my visa when opening a bank account but you don´t need a bank account to get by here as long as you have a U.S. or other foreign bank account and have a debit card. It´s pretty loose around here in our experience.


Bubba

Oct 30, 2006, 9:47 AM

Post #21 of 44 (2532 views)

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Re: [ignacio] Border Fence - Entering Mexico

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Another fact that Mr. 'goodie-two-shoes' is conveniently ignoring is the fact that some 25 to 30% of the land now claimed to belong to the USA, and where the border fence is being build, belonged to Mexico...... until a shady deal, under the gun, was concocted by the USA to 'purchase' that land in one case, and to in another stealing it 'fair and square' via a phony independence and attachment of Texas.

So it is OK to do things illegally when it fits your needs, but not the other way around..... what is good for the goose is good for the gander !

For those not wanting to believe that these lands were stolen, let's just see today's example of the current administration going into war and invading another county under total lies.


Well said, Ignacio:

Victors do not typically produce war criminals.

"Do as I say, not as I do", cried the queen. And then the knaves cried, "´Tis, he! Tis he."

Stay the course? Who said stay the course? Off with his head! Benchmarks, I say.




tony


Oct 30, 2006, 10:26 AM

Post #22 of 44 (2515 views)

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Re: [RexC] Border Fence - Entering Mexico

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Rex,
Sorry but my experience is the same as Bubba's. We have visited Mexico for the last 15 years.
We fly into DF and stay 4-7 weeks every year. we travel by plane bus, car etc... We have
never been asked to show an ID (except of course when flying). One time I was in a chicken
delivery truck and was stopped by the federales - they checked the truck for guns and dope.
No one was ID'd. I was helping with the deliveries so in essence I was "working".

One can rent in Mexico with virtually no ID. which includes water, elect etc... if you look around.
Your smaller cities and towns do not require official paperwork.

I have seen at least one gringo selling imported far eastern goods on a blanket in Oaxaca.
There was no way this guy was legal.

Forget about the wages, there are many gringos working in the tourist areas as salesman, bartenders
and the like to cater to the gringo crowd. If anything illegal gringos have better jobs in Mexico
than their mexican counterparts - due to the high level professional demand.

The only problems I ever have is getting INTO the US.

I can also mention how a group of illegals I know - about 5 roommates have all been pulled
over by the NOB police. All have been cited for a variety of violations. One was supposedly pulled
over for driving with his foot on the brake. (kinda hard since it was a standard, didn't know this
was probable cause) He was written up for over $500 in violations. 2 were caught by the INS when
they went to bail out one of their drunk countrymen. (The INS was waiting at the police station)

Tony

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."

(This post was edited by tony on Oct 30, 2006, 11:32 AM)


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Oct 30, 2006, 11:41 AM

Post #23 of 44 (2488 views)

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Re: [Mexicanbill] Border Fence

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about six years ago, my wife and I did all the paper work to bring family up from Mexico, Paid the US government about the same amount in fees and still we wait for the papers to be processed...The government has the money, over five years, "interest free" and still our families wait in Mexico to cross over legally. We are only one family among thousands that are "going through the process" While our family waits in Mexico to get the O.K. from the U.S. to come over,


Have you contacted your congressman or senator about your problem? Might be a good time to do so with an election coming up shortly....
Getting older and still not down here.


Papirex


Oct 30, 2006, 11:55 AM

Post #24 of 44 (2480 views)

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Re: [tony] Border Fence - Entering Mexico

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Yes, you can go for years and luck out and never need to show proof of identity. But sometimes you will need to provide identification at the most surprising times.

A couple of years ago an ATM ate my card. With a lot of help from a young man at Costco, I was able to get it back in just eight days. Since it was an American ATM card, the bank would not return it to me until I showed them my U. S. passport, not a visa, my passport.

I had to show my FM3 visa to another bank a few years ago before they would sell me Mexican insurance for my Mexican plated car. I also had to show proof that I was a legal resident when we nationalized both of our cars.

In all three of the houses we have lived in, here in Cuernavaca the electricity was in the owner’s name. In the first house, the telephone was too. In the second house, we bought the phone line from the previous tenant. I had to show proof to Telmex that I was in Mexico legally to get it transferred into my name. Same thing when we got cable TV and cable Internet service.

The house we are in now was new when we moved in. We are the first occupants. I had to apply for a new telephone line and number here, and I had to again prove I was in Mexico legally.

All three of the houses have stationary gas tanks. To open an account with the gas company that we preferred to use for delivery, I had to show proof that I was here legally in the first house. I didn’t need to do that when we moved, they just transferred the account to a new address.

I have been visiting, and now living in Mexico for a total of over 40 years. When we first moved here we lived In Mexico City, that’s my wife’s hometown. I am aware that in some places you can rent a house with all utilities in the owner’s name. I am aware that in some of the small towns and villages where there is high unemployment you can keep your head low and remain undetected as an illegal if you can find way to generate an income. I am aware of all the expats working here illegally as bartenders, Real Estate salespersons, etc. in tourist, and expat enclaves.

I’m also aware that if you piss the wrong Mexican off, or if they want your job, they will report you to the MIGRA and you will be on a bus to the border in a heartbeat if you are illegal here.

I am also aware that there is no shortage of skilled workers in Mexico. Anyone working illegally here is going to be underpaid. I am aware that there are many under skilled people working at various jobs and trades in Mexico. The skilled people do exist, but the employers don’t want to pay them what they are worth.

There are some illegal U.S. citizens here, but I believe the numbers of them are so low that they are not a big problem for The Mexican Government. Not many people will want to move from a place where making a living is comparably easy to a place where making a living is hard when you are illegal there.

Rex





"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo


Bubba

Oct 30, 2006, 2:31 PM

Post #25 of 44 (2442 views)

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Re: [RexC] Border Fence - Entering Mexico

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The phony border fence is like a stroke. It makes you dizzy, you can´t smile without contorting your face and you can´t think straight. If you don´t get help immediately, you start spouting some sort of lost Russian dialect indicating that you will now save the world from itself and shortly after that you will expire and the world will rejoice at the event.
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