MexConnect.com Forums: General: General Forum: (What is) Mexico's Middle Class: Page 3

Re: [tony] Lets take That Example - 5000 Pesos

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I can't rewrite the essay, Tony, but I can tell you the people I was thinking of. They would not be considered middle-class in the US, but the middle class is kind of a new thing here, no? My friend Alfredo started working at a resort hotel when he was 16. At 28, he is supervisor of the maintenance crew of about 13 people, who do painting, electrical repairs, etc. He is married now, has a wife who also works fulltime, and a son. They are buying an Infonavit house. He has a truck, a few years old, and hopes for a better one. He works all the time, and that is how I met him. If you want painting done, he will get painters from his crew who also want to earn extra money, and who are very good, to get it done on their days off. Moving, electrical, whatever, I call Alfredo who has become a friend. He is very hopeful of the future, and working hard to make sure his family can prosper. Poco a poco. My maid (oh! you gasp!) Angeles cleans my apartment twice a week, and has done so for 4 yrs. She does this even when now she has a full-time job at a wonderful B&B in the neighborhood, which pays her a decent salary and IMSS. They recently have given her extra duties which include staying there when the owners are gone to take care of everything, taking reservations, etc. Angeles has a very nice home, which was built from the ground up, one room at a time. She says she lived in a tent on the lot with her children until the 1st room was completed! She has a 9 year old and a 14 year old at home. The older (girl) is an outstanding student, so A. got a computer and internet connection. A has a moto, dreams of having a car, but has improved her life so much. Still, she has a paid for house, a land line phone, TV and internet, a laundry room with washer, and plenty of dreams. I could tell you more about her, but you get the pic. I think of that as the "emerging" middle class of Mexico, not the guys in fancy cars whose fathers have a ton of money but maybe no ethics. I still want to call them upperclass, just because of their heritage.
I am sure many of you will disagree with my assessment, but this is what Tony asked for and I tried to comply.

Rolly

Oct 24, 2006, 10:08 PM

Post #52 of 93 (3942 views)

Re: [MazDee] Lets take That Example - 5000 Pesos

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Dee, you pretty well describe what I see all around me in Lerdo.

Rolly Pirate

Papirex

Oct 24, 2006, 10:36 PM

Post #53 of 93 (3938 views)

Re: [MazDee] Lets take That Example - 5000 Pesos

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“I think of that as the "emerging" middle class of Mexico, not the guys in fancy cars whose fathers have a ton of money but maybe no ethics. I still want to call them upperclass, just because of their heritage.”

Dee, we call people like that “juniors”, it is not a complimentary term.

Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

MazDee

Oct 24, 2006, 10:41 PM

Post #54 of 93 (3938 views)

Re: [Rolly] Lets take That Example - 5000 Pesos

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But do you also agree, Rolly that this is the new middle class? Or am I way off base. Dee

MazDee

Oct 24, 2006, 10:56 PM

Post #55 of 93 (3934 views)

Re: [RexC] Lets take That Example - 5000 Pesos

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Jeje, thanks Rexl I know what you mean. But, do we have to mistrust them all? I met the nicest young man a couple of weeks ago. He had a very fancy car and bodyguard?/driver. We had an interesting conversation with our mutual friend about life here, politics in general, etc. Our mutual friend told me, after he left, that he had inherited some pawn shops. Which means that he could be as crooked as hell or just protecting his back. He was too charming and intelligent to doubt! But, I don't know if there are any honest folks in that level of our Mexican society. I do hope so. Dee

Papirex

Oct 24, 2006, 11:57 PM

Post #56 of 93 (3929 views)

Re: [MazDee] Lets take That Example - 5000 Pesos

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Of course there are exceptions to every generality Dee. We have a nephew that is one such person. He is now one of the most valuable engineers working for Pemex. He makes tall Dollars and the company furnishes him with a Chofer.

The chofer also drives him and his wife’s car for them. My nephews name is Eduardo. He came from a poor family. His stepfather had a taller where he repaired cars. He told Eduardo to forget about going to college, he was going to work in the shop as a mechanic.

The night before Eduardo had to start college classes, he told his mother that he knew he could make something of himself if he could just get an education. She gave him what little money she had been able to hide from her husband. Eduardo escaped out of an upstairs bathroom window on to the roof of their house while his stepfather was looking for him to beat the idea of college out of his head.

When he started school, Eduardo didn’t have enough money to rent a room to stay in. He hid his clothes in the school and slept there. He used to get up early and clean up in one of the bathrooms. After a few months one of his professors caught him in the morning and realized that Eduardo was living in the school.

Eduardo was such a good student that the professor did not have him expelled. Instead he and his wife invited Eduardo to live with them.

Eduardo used to do anything he could to make a little money, washing cars, washing windshields on the street corners, etc. He would always buy some food or something to help his benefactors when he could. They always told him not to do it, but he wanted to show his gratitude.

This arrangement went on for a couple of years, but then both the professor and his wife were offered teaching positions at an American university. When they left Mexico, Eduardo was on his own again. Nobody is really sure where Eduardo lived for the last year he was at the university. We are all too polite to ask about it, but we think he was probably living with our niece before they were married.

Anyway, my nephew is now very well to do, but he is no junior. It is a privilege to be a member of the same family as my nephew.

Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

nfabq

Oct 25, 2006, 2:08 AM

Post #57 of 93 (3923 views)

Re: [tony] Lets take That Example - 5000 Pesos

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Perhaps,Tony, you don't know that the phrase "anti-social" is NOT a generic term;it has a very specific psychiatric definition.It is another way of saying behavior disorder,or sociopath or even psychopath. I was a volunteer social worker for 3 years at a fine free facility here in Albuquerque called Health Care for the Homeless.I didn't get to know all of the homeless--we have a lot--but I assure you I got to know most of them in our city.Once in a while we found one that was anti-social and who lived by exploiting the rest of the homeless.The rest of them are homless for a wide variety of personal,cirumstancial and social problems of their making or the the making of others,some of the reasons are the ones you mentioned.

If that's not the definition you intended,I apologize.

Norm

Rolly

Oct 25, 2006, 7:05 AM

Post #58 of 93 (3904 views)

Re: [MazDee] Lets take That Example - 5000 Pesos

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Yes, Dee, I do agree that we are seeing an emerging of a new, or at least greatly expanded, middle class. I think one of the attributes of middle class is automobile ownership. When I first visited Lerdo nine years ago, the traffic in El Centro was not bad, and one could almost always find a parking space around the plaza. Today El Centro is the scene of frequent traffic jams and finding a parking space around the plaza is a rare event.

So it seems to me that this marked increase in cars is a good indicator of rising affluence. Apparently Wal-Mart thinks so too because they have just opened a new Sam's in Lerdo.

Now if Subway sandwiches would come to town, I'd really be happy. Smile

Rolly

(This post was edited by Rolly on Oct 25, 2006, 8:18 AM)

Oct 25, 2006, 7:52 AM

Post #59 of 93 (3893 views)

Re: [MazDee] Lets take That Example - 5000 Pesos

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Hi MazDee,
I hope you don't mind if I jump in. I can't say if the middle class is a new thing in
Mexico. The cement workers i gave for ex are people who are now in their mid 60's.
I do know that I have accepted the "no middle class in Mexico" and "most of
Mexico's population is poor" as fact for most of my life. Now that I have personally
observed it for the past 15 years, I have doubts as to whether it was true or not.
Thanks for your input. Tony

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."

Oct 25, 2006, 8:34 AM

Post #60 of 93 (3876 views)

Re: [tony] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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It is both educational and amusing to follow this thread. It is perhaps no wonder that - as Americans - you use an ( here implied, not spelled out ) American version of the definition of class, particularly middle class, if it was not an EXTREMELY Americanized version: you all seem to pay attention to barely ECONOMIC factors in classifying people as middle class, and totally forget SOCIAL aspects of it. Wikipedia has both a pretty good definition of middle class - applicable not only - and even not mainly - to Americans, but also a pretty good (and interesting) description of a history and evolutionof the term. Angeles in MazDees example is a typical working class woman, not even an upper level working class. The fact that she - and hopefully others - are not as impoverished as they once were - does not "elevate" her to middle class. Her smart daughter, on the other hand, if she attains education, has a shot on belonging to middle class in its SOCIO- and not only ECONOMIC meaning, even if she happens - especially at the beginning - to earn less money than her working class mother.
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

(This post was edited by MariaLund on Oct 25, 2006, 8:38 AM)

arbon

Oct 25, 2006, 9:05 AM

Post #61 of 93 (3864 views)

Re: [MariaLund] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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Good one Maria, Education NOB and SOB does not relate to much wealth, but it does relate to an easier way to make a living as an employee. (middle class)

The wealthiest NOB and SOB do not necessarily have very much education, but they do know how to make money. (upper middle)

But poverty on the other hand usually does seem to mean lack of education, NOB and SOB. (below middle class)

The well educated that I know SOB, want to open small businesses, that have employees, to make money.
As well as keeping their full time employment.
(to get from middle to upper middle class)
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(This post was edited by arbon on Oct 25, 2006, 9:12 AM)

jerezano

Oct 25, 2006, 9:16 AM

Post #62 of 93 (3858 views)

Re: [Rolly] Lets take That Example - 5000 Pesos

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Hello Rolly,

You said: Now if Subway sandwiches would come to town, I'd really be happy.

Don't get your hopes up. Here in Zacatecas City we have a new Subway located next door to our biggest movie house. It looks like any other Subway I have ever been in. Yesterday I bought a "classic"---roast beef, turkey, cheese. etc on an Italian loaf. It was the most tasteless mess I have ever tried to eat. In fact I threw it away. It cost me with a refresco some $48 pesos.

Perhaps with time......[sigh!]

Adiós. jerezano.

Oct 25, 2006, 9:37 AM

Post #63 of 93 (3848 views)

Re: [arbon] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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Agreed, arbon. Why wealth plus a certain level of ruthlessness and in some societies: inherited ( usually by belonging to gentry) social status equals POWER, equals upper class, education, even without money, gives a shot at some INFLUENCE = upper middle class. More than merely making money... but I am a European "sangrona", born and raised in a country where - still less than a century ago - landed gentry could only engage in agriculture or academia if they wanted to keep their social prestige, because entrepreneurship of any kind would automatically deprive them of their titles and relegate them to middle class... so my gut reaction to making money (social validity of merely economic factors) is slightly different than a gut reaction of Americans who, since birth, were given rubber barons as role models ;-)
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

(This post was edited by MariaLund on Oct 25, 2006, 9:39 AM)

arbon

Oct 25, 2006, 9:48 AM

Post #64 of 93 (3833 views)

Re: [MariaLund] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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"were given rubber barons as role models ;-) "

They were also given "robber barons" as role models, I believe.
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bournemouth

Oct 25, 2006, 9:52 AM

Post #65 of 93 (3829 views)

Re: [MariaLund] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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Having been born and brought up in Europe where your social level in society is pretty much fixed from birth - that may be changing and I certainly hope so - one of the greatest differences I found in arriving in the US was that class, such as it is, is economic and that one is free to move around depending on ones resources. That may or may not be a good thing but it was refreshing to me. I hope that this may be the case, to some extent, in Mexico as money arrives for the less fortunate. I realize that the "white" Mexicans are always going to hold the edge but let us hope that as Mexicans earn more money and are able to move their living conditions upwards, they move up in the social strata too.

Actually all this class thing is a really unpleasant aspect of life. People are people and need to be valued for their true worth - I already know this is unrealistic idealism so don't bother to tell me. But I can wish can't I.

Oct 25, 2006, 10:30 AM

Post #66 of 93 (3819 views)

Re: [arbon] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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Arbon, I love the notion of robber barons! Like Bush, big oil, big pharma and all the members of congress and senate who sit in their... and others pockets and never hesitate to take a handout from Abramoff or any like him.
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

Oct 25, 2006, 10:41 AM

Post #67 of 93 (3816 views)

Re: [bournemouth] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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bornemouth, defining class in purely economic terms - and approving its validity - has its distinctive disadvantages, too. It deemphesises education, wisdom, ethics. When my European friends and acquaitances wonder how could Americans elect such an unquestionable dimwit as their president, and do it twice, to boot, I explain the "mamon as god" philosophy and stratification of the American society. We Europeans, have our ways of being silly, Americans have theirs. None - especially in its extremes - is worth emulating or even continuing. But, as Wendy in another threat (South Mexico forum - keeping the foot on their necks) merely changing the guard ( the rulers) does not equate a desirable (to liberals) social progress. And a notion what is "true worth" of people differs widely, eg between thought liberals and social conservatives. You need at least INFLUENCE in order to try to change it.
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

(This post was edited by MariaLund on Oct 25, 2006, 11:07 AM)

Oct 25, 2006, 10:52 AM

Post #68 of 93 (3812 views)

Re: [MariaLund] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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Hello MariaLund,
In the US middle class as I know it only means a certain perceived level of living.
Influence, power, social status etc don't enter into the picture. There has been
this common myth as I stated before that Mexico has no middle class or everyone
is poor. (see earlier posts) This myth is perpetuated by comparing perceived
wealth in the US with perceived wealth in Mexico. I hope this thread has shown
that there is indeed a middle class as well as shown that average working Mexicans
have an "OK" lifestyle. Many of my friends and relatives NOB still believe Mexico
is a miserable/dangerous pit of poverty.

There is also a certain myth amongst americans that there is class movement in the US but IMHO
it ain't so. For ex right now it is harder for younger people to buy property
than their parents, yet they can "afford" more luxury items. This gives the false
impression that younger people are doing better (moving up) when in fact they
aren't. There are also not less people living in "poverty" in the US. This is off topic........

Tony

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."

Oct 25, 2006, 11:02 AM

Post #69 of 93 (3806 views)

Re: [tony] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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I am sorry tony, but you are correct as to middle class definition in America only when it concerns a so called "vulgar" (= on the street, by unsufficiently educated - in sociology - people) definition. US sociologists accept the global definition of middle class, facturing social aspects and economic aspects. Even in popularized sociological works, affluent working class is still defined as working class and laughed at for their lack of taste, lack of refinement, and adressed as "high prole" (high economic level proretariat) - which I by no means condone, just observe, just read. BTW, one of the best (if not the best) and most innovative popular book dealing with social stratification in the USA is "The raise of a creative class" if I remember the title correctly. Sadly, I forgot the name of the author, but I liked his approach and his ideas and can recommend it.
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

(This post was edited by MariaLund on Oct 25, 2006, 11:13 AM)

Oct 25, 2006, 12:10 PM

Post #70 of 93 (3781 views)

Re: [MariaLund] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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Hello,
The definitions I read of middle class in the US are not the global one since there are
no classes such as nobility, peasants or class structure per ancestry in the US.
Generally speaking working classs IS middle class in the US. Breeding manners, taste and
refinement are almost anti-american since we 'believe' in the 'everyone is equal' doctrine.
I don't know about Europe but the US almost takes pride in the rich and crude....
As I'm sure you know wealth and education in the US as well as bloodlines vary greatly with
little regard or expectation of the consequences. After all, one only has to move
out of town to start a new life in the US> ;>).

I would be interested to read a different view of classes in the US, especially if it has
somehow divided it using something other than monetary/education levels. Tony

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."

Oct 25, 2006, 12:46 PM

Post #71 of 93 (3770 views)

Re: [tony] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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Tony, I was referring to the American "bible" on class, Paul Fussell's classic treatise: "Class: A Guide Through the American Status System" and some popular works based on his typology, which is:

1. Top out-of-sight: the “Old Money” wealthy who avoid public exposure (in part, due to experiences during the 1930s, when it was not to one’s advantage to be wealthy).

2. Upper Class: a group of those who are not only wealthy, but usually born into the wealth, and who espouse a different set of values than wealthy middle-class people or “proles”.

3. Upper-Middle Class: much better off than the majority, this class still lives primarily off earned income derived from professional status requiring expensive education: doctors, attorneys, upper-middle management, and so forth. Dentists and accountants are somewhat more problematic. This class is characterized by intense interest in higher education, and is generally the target audience of mainstream but elitist publications such as The New Yorker, The New York Times, and so forth.

4. Middle Class: most “white collar” workers, including many of the self-employed, and a group most afflicted with status anxiety and confusion, envying the refinement of the upper-middle class and the leisure of the uppers.

5. High Prole: skilled, often wealthy manufacturing or service workers, who may outearn middle and even upper-middle class people but maintain a distinctively “lowbrow” culture.

6. Mid Prole: an intermediate level of often poor workers, but with stable employment and relative security.

7. Low Prole: the working poor, with difficulty finding steady employment.

8. Destitute: the homeless underclass.

9. Bottom out-of-sight: those incarcerated in prisons, or otherwise outside the purview of sociology; like top-out-of-sights, they fall so low in society as to become effectively invisible.
[…]
Fussell also proposes the existence of a small subset of Americans who don’t fit into any of the above social classes, known as “Category X”. Recruited from all social classes, they are the intellectual, stylish misfits whom others try to emulate, but by no means qualify as an elite. Fussell claims “X” to be a category rather than class since one gains membership on account of personal qualities and values rather than social background or breeding.

On Sunday, May 15, 2005, The New York Times began their “Class Matters” series declaring “class is still a powerful force in American life.” The month-long series has examined class disparities in marriage, educational opportunities, religious life and comparative immigration experienceshttp://www.nytimes.com/pages/national/class/index.html

Accrding to NYT Class is a lot more than money. It“influences destiny in a society that likes to think of itself as a land of unbounded opportunity.” “One way to think of a person's position in society is to imagine a hand of cards. Everyone is dealt FOUR cards, one from each suit: EDUCATION, INCOME, OCCUPATION and WEALTH, the four commonly used criteria for gauging class. Face cards in a few categories may land a player in the upper middle class.”

And, perhaps most importantly for the majority of Americans: One of the dramatic findings in the first Times article is the glaring disparity between the public perception of mobility in American and the reality. Americans overwhelmingly believe that they live in a mobile society. Half of those polled believe they have a chance to become financially wealthy. But the data now shows that the U.S. has LESS mobility than the countries of Europe, which Americans always thought of as having rigid class and caste system.

In Mexico, according to most observers the social mobility is even more curtailed that it becomes in the USA do to remnants of medieval Spanish social system superimposed over a racial divine in the " new world".
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

(This post was edited by MariaLund on Oct 25, 2006, 12:54 PM)

JohnnyBoy

Oct 25, 2006, 3:50 PM

Post #72 of 93 (3742 views)

Re: [tony] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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It must be obvious to everyone that what qualifies as middle-class in the USA is not what qualifies as middle-class in Mexico. Everything is relative. If we measure the Mexican middle-class with a USA ruler, we will surely find those people (Mexcians) among the best off in the country.

I disagree that the real estate bubble is purely bi-coastal. It almost certainly began that way. However, many of those who were in on it are taking their profits and are going elsewhere.

An example: the retired couple who bought my mother and dad's house in Boise, Idaho. This was a very nice four bedroom house with a full finished basement, huge yard. My folks paid $17,000 for it in 1963. They sold it to the retired couple from California in 1995 for $135,000. The Californians sold their house in California, for which they paid $62,000 in 1966, for $2.5 million. They could have bought the entire block in Boise where my folks' house was located. My parents got to know the California couple after the sale; sort of became friends. My mother let slip one day to the California lady how she and my dad always felt like they had overcharged for the house. And the California lady admitted they felt they had cheated my mother and dad, having paid so little for it.

Well, houses all over Boise have gone nuts in the last five years or so, because of all the Californian's making themselves instant multi-millionaires and coming to Boise and bidding up the cost of houses. And this is happening all over the Mountain West and I am sure in other areas.

But what really occurs to me as deplorable is that many of the people who are taking their profits from the real estate bubble phenomenon are choosing Mexico instead of Waco, Boise, or Peoria. They take their millions and build new houses, or existing ones which they improve significantly, and in the process house prices in the entire area go up and cost more than the locals (Mexicans) can afford, and they are driven into the slums where they live in cardboard boxes, if they are lucky. Or they are driven to despair of every making it in Mexico and head NoB.

There was article about this recently in the San Francisco Chronicle with mention of the apparent fact that the billions that are flowing out the USA into Mexico are not coming so much from Mexicans sending money home to help their families there, but are the billions that expatriates are sending themselves.

I concede that the money we spend in Mexico helps the Mexicans. It is happening, though, on a kind of "trickle down" basis, and it is the ones at the top (contracting companies, real estate developers, etc.) who are benefitting the most. We all know how well Reagan's Trickle Down (Voodoo) Economics worked for the low end of the USA economic classes. I think that is how it is working in Mexico.

We are looking for a house now in Sonora. We will buy an existing house directly from the owner and will pay cash. I rent in California. It will take about one-fourth of everything I have saved to pay for my half of the house in Sonora. I am not going to drive any Mexicans into the slums.

Oct 25, 2006, 3:53 PM

Post #73 of 93 (3742 views)

Re: [MariaLund] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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Thanks MariaLund,
By the example you gave only the "out of sight" and "upper class" have different truly
values than the those below them. After all, being upper middle class really only means one
has obtained a high education AND a good paying job. It is a level that doesn't sustain
itself because these professionals don't only marry amongst themselves thus it is impossible to
maintain the requirements of higher education and refinement. Certainly refinement doesn't
come automatically when one becomes upper middle management and certainly not a lawyer ;>)

The 2 higher classes have the means to do this this.

I have always doubted american class mobility based on my personal observations but never
read anything about it. Thanks for the info.

I would love to see a study about thisIn Mexico, I think it would be not what people expect. Tony

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."

db52

Oct 26, 2006, 3:18 AM

Post #74 of 93 (3686 views)

Re: [MariaLund] (What is) Mexico's Middle Class

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A 1992 Treasury Dept. study showed that between 1979 and 1988, 86% of those in the bottom income quintile moved to a higher quintile, and 35% in the top quintile moved to a lower quintile. MariaLund's NY Times link leads to a chart showing that, between '88 and '97, about 48% in the lowest quintile moved higher and about 48% in the highest quintile moved lower. If there is, of late, greater income mobility in Europe, I suspect it may have more to do with the collapse of communism than with any sort of "rigid class system" in the US.

Moreover, as a high-earning skilled tradesman, it seems to me that it is not lack of opportunity for economic betterment that keeps me stuck in the "high prole" category, but rather the insistence of snobbish, pointy-headed, New Yorker-reading, university professors that, no matter my income, my blue-collar status and supposed low-brow culture/lack of refinement preclude me from membership in the middle class. Apparently, the best I can hope for is to become an intellectual, stylish misfit!

I would also like to see some figures regarding income mobility in Mexico, by the way, if anybody can produce them.

arbon

Oct 26, 2006, 9:07 AM

Post #75 of 93 (3647 views)