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esperanza

Sep 24, 2006, 7:28 AM

Post #26 of 50 (2714 views)

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Re: [hoping 2] social expectations and cultural values

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Last night I received this email from a friend. In it, she describes things that happened to a friend who lives in her town.

"...I'd thought the party was to celebrate the completion of all the work done on her house. Nope. There's still a lot to do, fundamental stuff, not as fundamental as the foundation but close. It's pretty obvious to anyone who's aware of such things that indeed, she has been taken. And it really is her own fault. She should have hired a contractor to oversee the work and workmen. She didn't. So, thinking she was not from here, they've taken her for every dime they could. At her suggestion, (name deleted) asked her workmen about something that wasn't as it should be here. They mumbled, and poked, and prodded, and looked serious, and came away talking about some more massive amount of work that would cost a fortune. Ninety percent of it was not necessary, and it could have been done by the man (name deleted) uses for a fraction of the cost and labor."

Anybody want to guess where this might have happened?

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Brian

Sep 24, 2006, 7:54 AM

Post #27 of 50 (2709 views)

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Re: [esperanza] social expectations and cultural values

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Probably to offset criticism of ethics in Mexico, this occurred somewhere in the United States, verdad?

Brian


trpt2345

Oct 16, 2006, 9:34 AM

Post #28 of 50 (2597 views)

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Re: [esperanza] social expectations and cultural values

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Having spent some time over the years in Mexico I've noticed a fair amount of what has been talked about, but maybe since I'm from Chicago it doesn't surprise me that much or bother me unduly. Mi suegra agreed with me years ago when I mentioned that "chingando las tuiristas" seemed to be a big business in Mexico. I just stay in big city mode, count my change, get the price upfront, don't pay until you get what you want, keep my hand on my wallet in the mercado in Xochimilco , etc. Human nature is human nature and I don't always expect strangers to act honorably in Mexico or on the west side. And don't go down a dark alley with a new acquaintance who promises a great bargain at the end of it.

Michael McLaughlin
El bolillo ranchero


carlw

Oct 19, 2006, 9:48 AM

Post #29 of 50 (2501 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] social expectations and cultural values

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In the USA, there are many acts that by law are crimes and punishable by imprisonment that are not crimes in Mexico. Think white-collar crime, credit card fraud, identity theft, the overwhelming emphasis in USA on drug crimes and sex-related crimes. Mexico also does not generally punish criminals with very long prison sentences, whereas in the USA judges routinely hand out sentences of 20 years to life. This has a cumulative effect on the size of the population (putting more in but not letting others out, more like a savings account than a checking account). The criminal justice system, and the law in general in USA needs a serious re-do.


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Oct 19, 2006, 12:58 PM

Post #30 of 50 (2466 views)

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Re: [carlw] social expectations and cultural values

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Google "prison population" and you'll find the following data and this is 4 years old. Multiply the numbers by the average cost of $40,000 per year to imprison each convict.
They live better than most of us.

1 in 142 US residents now in prison
America's prison population topped 2 million inmates for the first time in history on June 30, 2002 according to a new report from the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).
The 50 states, the District of Columbia and the federal government held 1,355,748 prisoners (two-thirds of the total incarcerated population), and local municipal and county jails held 665,475 inmates.

By midyear 2002, America's jails held 1 in every 142 U.S. residents. Males were incarcerated at the rate of 1,309 inmates per 100,000 U.S. men, while the female incarceration rate was 113 per 100,000 women residents
Getting older and still not down here.


sfmacaws


Oct 19, 2006, 1:20 PM

Post #31 of 50 (2461 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] social expectations and cultural values

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No, they don't live better than we do. That figure includes wages for many, many working people and families from guards to shrinks. I think we spend too much on them myself but in many areas it can be tough to restrict what they get. In California we buy them things like transgender surgery that I think is ridiculous. I'm more along the lines of the Phoenix sheriff who puts them in pink underwear and tents. Still, crime has gone down in areas with things like a 3 strike law and long sentences. I'm of the mind that if they can't live with society and follow the rules then they should have to go live in a cage with the rest of their ilk. It's a price I'm willing to pay.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Gringal

Oct 19, 2006, 1:28 PM

Post #32 of 50 (2457 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] social expectations and cultural values

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"In California we buy them things like transgender surgery"

Honest Indigenous Person? Beyond belief ! Your tax dollars at work.


sfmacaws


Oct 19, 2006, 1:33 PM

Post #33 of 50 (2453 views)

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Re: [Gringal] social expectations and cultural values

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Yup! Transplant surgery for those on death row as well. There's a lot not to like in how my Calif tax dollars are spent but then I also made a lot of money from Calif and worrying about how they spend it is not a very good use of time. I vote - no on most things - and then I go away and don't think about it. Well, when I'm driving on some of our really horrible roads - like 580 out of Oakland - and I think about all those gasoline taxes that were supposed to keep them repaired but now go to make new bike paths, I do get a little hot. Ni modo.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Rolly


Oct 19, 2006, 2:00 PM

Post #34 of 50 (2444 views)

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Mexico?

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Folks, can we ease this back to Mexico?

Rolly Pirate


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Oct 19, 2006, 2:23 PM

Post #35 of 50 (2437 views)

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Re: [Gringal] social expectations and cultural values

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And for a new liver for those who are on death row awaiting for the sentence to be carried out.......
And chemotheraphy for those with cancer awaiting the same as above......
How about commuting a sentence for a 600# murderer because he's too fat to hang. "We might pull his head off."
He was also to fat to fit in the electric chair and gas or firing squad was not an option in that state. Judge also stated that "they had to keep feeding him in the manner to which he was accustomed. If they didn't and put him on a diet it was "cruel and unusual punishment"

There's more............

Guess we gotta keep them alive until we kill them........

God Bless our Judicial system..
Amen
Getting older and still not down here.


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Oct 19, 2006, 2:28 PM

Post #36 of 50 (2434 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Mexico?

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OOPS, Sorry Rolly, I was typing the last post while you were posting.
Yes, now back to Mexico. I am sure the Mexican prison system does not operate like ours, and I think that may be a good thing. JMHO since I am not learned on Mexican law.
Getting older and still not down here.


raferguson


Oct 19, 2006, 5:41 PM

Post #37 of 50 (2411 views)

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Re: [alex .] Ethics are different in Mexico (?)

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One way to look at ethics is by looking at corruption. Transparency International, for example, publishes an index of corruption by country. This is mostly in terms of government corruption, but I think that government corruption is basically a reflection of the national culture. If a country has a lot of corruption they can't have a lot of ethics. To put it a different way, if stealing by government officials is commonplace,

Transparency International gives a numeric score to each country. The higher the score, the less corruption.

9.7 - Finland - 1st place
8.5 - Canada - 12th place
7.5 - USA - 17th place
3.6 - Mexico - 64th place
1.6 - Nigeria - 145th place

So corruption is much worse in Mexico than in the USA or Canada, with Mexico's score much closer to Nigeria's than Finland's. Note that at least 80 countries are more corrupt than Mexico. Mexico is roughly in the middle of the Latin American countries in corruption.

By the way, a recent study used unpaid parking tickets at the United Nations to study ethics, since diplomats did not have to pay parking tickets. They found a very high correlation between international corruption indexes and unpaid parking tickets. If you were from Scandanavia, you either parked legally or paid your ticket. If you were from Nigeria or Bangladesh, you accumulated hundreds of unpaid parking tickets. When they tightened up the rules, and started towing diplomat's vehicles that had many unpaid parking tickets, the number of unpaid parking tickets went down sharply. But the more corrupt countries still accumulated a lot more unpaid parking tickets than the less corrupt contries.

Anyway, I think that the ethics you experience in Mexico are part and parcel of general Mexican society corruption and morals. The same people who pay and expect bribes are likely to cheat in ordinary business dealings. I assume that things are worse in Nigeria.

Richard


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com


ignacio

Oct 19, 2006, 8:54 PM

Post #38 of 50 (2386 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Ethics are different in Mexico (?)

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USA is 7.5 if you hide your head in the sand, and ignore the Political Action Committees (PACs).

Also if you ignore our terrorist activities (yes, our so called democratic cleansing) in the middle east, killing people like there's no tomorrow.

If you include these, and other 'legal' corruption methods from the USA, we get probably a 1.3 grade.


(This post was edited by ignacio on Oct 19, 2006, 9:02 PM)


Bubba

Oct 20, 2006, 6:57 AM

Post #39 of 50 (2342 views)

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Re: [ignacio] Ethics are different in Mexico (?)

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Right on, Ignacio. Government corruption in Mexico and Nigeria hurts Mexicans and Nigerians. Government corruption in the United States hurts the world. But, not to worry, thank God we have no cronyism in the United States. No, the U.S. has some sort of combination of cronyism and incompetence as it goes about smugly deciding what´s best for the world spreading shock and awe and leaving death and derision in its sanctimonious wake. Reminds me of that famous lizard in Australia that, when thinking himself threatened, blows himself up into an aggressive and fearsome stance only to run like a cowardly sand crab at the first sign of difficulty.

As for defining "corruption", just remember the Golden Rule - them with the gold makes the rules. In this case, the primarily Northern European Caucasion world. Talk about cultural bias.

Think about it. Virtually no corruption in Finland. Try to break into that closed circle. At least in Nigeria they are there with their hands out at the airport and there is no confusion as to the payment method.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Oct 20, 2006, 7:00 AM)


Don Moore


Oct 20, 2006, 10:47 AM

Post #40 of 50 (2302 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] social expectations and cultural values

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If you actually think that anyone imprisoned lives "better than most of us" you must never have entered a prison and/or are quite deluded, but what has any of this to do with Mexico.
Don Moore


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Oct 20, 2006, 4:28 PM

Post #41 of 50 (2250 views)

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Re: [Don Moore] social expectations and cultural values

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Well, I actually typed that with tongue in cheek. However, basically all they've lost is the right to own a gun and to freely walk down our streets with said gun in hand, comitting crimes and buying & using drugs. They have all the rest. free lawyers, free food three times a day, warm place to sleep at night at no cost, a complete law library and general library, free cable TV, free internet, free food, a complete workout gym so they can keep themselves physically fit to overtake the guards when the time comes, and as previously mentioned, better medical than only those in High up federal offices are able to avail themselves of, did I mention no monthly cost or co-payment for the medical. Also, they may not have the right to buy drugs, but, it appears drugs are freely available within our prison system. Let's see now. Free daily newspaper, free telephone calls, A job is usually available that pays a small pittance so the inmates can purchase those little things we don't provide for such as cigarettes, cigars, candy, etc.
Of course home made alcohol is generally available or from the hospital for those who have access.
Hmmm, free psychoanalysis for those who need it, all kinds of free self help and improvement programs, multiple purpose chapels for all religions and on call Chaplains for every religion, they don't have the right to form gangs but they do anyway, those who are married have the right to have their mates join them ocassionally in a taxpayer provided on premise motel room, again at no charge for the room.

Let's see. I must be missing something, but for the time being this is enough. As I said in another thread, it's time to grab my cocktail and return to my lawnchair to reflect on the happenings of the day and just plain relax.

Oh! Did I mention the free swimming pools available in some institutions ??

Oh! My point, maybe I lost it somewhere along the line was, It's great that the Mexican prison system treats a criminal as a criminal. Not as a guest at a resort. For that I applaud them.

And, for your info, I did spend some time in prison dozens of years ago, for what is not important, so I do have some experience to rely upon.
Getting older and still not down here.


Brian

Oct 20, 2006, 4:47 PM

Post #42 of 50 (2243 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] social expectations and cultural values

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In Reply To

Oh! My point, maybe I lost it somewhere along the line was, It's great that the Mexican prison system treats a criminal as a criminal. Not as a guest at a resort. For that I applaud them.

And, for your info, I did spend some time in prison dozens of years ago, for what is not important, so I do have some experience to rely upon.

Had you spent time in a Mexican prison, you would know that the degree of comfort is dictated by the amount of money you have to spend. You buy your "house", wide screen tv and stereo equipment, pay for whatever kind of meals you want to have brought in, receive conjugal visits from spouse or otherwise and, when you decide the time is right, you payoff the warden and guards to allow you to escape in a laundry cart. Just ask "El Chapo"


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Oct 20, 2006, 5:13 PM

Post #43 of 50 (2236 views)

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Re: [Brian] social expectations and cultural values

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In Reply To

In Reply To

Oh! My point, maybe I lost it somewhere along the line was, It's great that the Mexican prison system treats a criminal as a criminal. Not as a guest at a resort. For that I applaud them.

And, for your info, I did spend some time in prison dozens of years ago, for what is not important, so I do have some experience to rely upon.

Had you spent time in a Mexican prison, you would know that the degree of comfort is dictated by the amount of money you have to spend. You buy your "house", wide screen tv and stereo equipment, pay for whatever kind of meals you want to have brought in, receive conjugal visits from spouse or otherwise and, when you decide the time is right, you payoff the warden and guards to allow you to escape in a laundry cart. Just ask "El Chapo"

Getting older and still not down here.


arbon

Oct 20, 2006, 6:04 PM

Post #44 of 50 (2224 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] social expectations and cultural values

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They will do your laundry in a Mexican prison?

How about darning socks?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Ron Pickering W3FJW


Oct 20, 2006, 7:12 PM

Post #45 of 50 (2210 views)

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Re: [arbon] social expectations and cultural values

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Don't know about that, but they do NOB, and it's free.....
Don't think they darn socks, but if they do, it's also free. But they probably give you a new free pair.

SOB, I dunno, but you might have to have your own egg to put in the heel to darn them properly...
That is, if you have a needle and yarn.......
Getting older and still not down here.


arbon

Oct 20, 2006, 7:36 PM

Post #46 of 50 (2203 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] social expectations and cultural values

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"That is, if you have a needle and yarn"

You will sure have a needle and a few yarns, when you come out.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Bubba

Oct 20, 2006, 8:16 PM

Post #47 of 50 (2192 views)

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Re: [arbon] social expectations and cultural values

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They will do your laundry in a Mexican prison?

Well, Arbon, that´s hard to say. It is pretty much detremined whether El Chapo will do your laundry or you will do El Chapo´s laundry after you get there and it is decided who will be designated best boy after a series of informal mental and physical tests performed during the first weeks of your detention. My guess is most of us posting on these forums would be doing laundry rather than having it done..


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Oct 20, 2006, 8:17 PM

Post #48 of 50 (2188 views)

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Re: [Bubba] social expectations and cultural values

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And probably wetting more of our laundry than the average detainee.....
Getting older and still not down here.


nfabq

Oct 20, 2006, 9:38 PM

Post #49 of 50 (2172 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] social expectations and cultural values

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Hey Ron,that jug at the foot of your rocker is empty!!

Norm


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Oct 20, 2006, 9:57 PM

Post #50 of 50 (2166 views)

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Re: [nfabq] social expectations and cultural values

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Norm, you'd better take a closer look. It's still half full which I suppose is the same as half empty. Haven't finished every thing I brought back from SOB last March yet, but that black vodka was great.......
Getting older and still not down here.
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