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Brian

Sep 30, 2006, 8:34 AM

Post #1 of 29 (3071 views)

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What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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I understand when message threads are becoming redundant or offensive that the moderators use good judgment in locking them and in the most extreme cases remove individual posts that are in poor taste. My question deals with Alex's "going native" thread. I had submitted a joke about the limits of free speech which I thought would be provocative but certainly not disgusting or mean spirited. I went this morning to show the joke to my wife and it, along with the preceding posts had completely disappeared! Once a thread is locked to prevent anymore discussion of a topic, why would it be necessary to at a later point censor it completely. Despite being a member of MexConnect even back in the free membership days, and despite having read carefully the etiquette section on this website, I fail to see how the "going native" posts were examples of statements that future readers should not be allowed to read.

Sincerely
Brian

ken_in_dfw

Sep 30, 2006, 8:52 AM

Post #2 of 29 (3040 views)

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Re: [Brian] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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Moderating discussion forums is a tough and, often, thankless job. There is also an art to it, as not every rule fits every situation precisely.

I think it's quite a Herculean task to actively moderate a discussion board of this size and to do it well.

Nevertheless, if I were moderating, I would tend to err on the side of allowing content to stay on the site - rather than to remove it. The value of social software like this forum increases as more participants provide more perspectives and more information. Conversely, it decreases in value as participants choose to move on.

The more aggressively that moderators of Mexico Connect act in expunging content that they deem to be offensive or of zero value, the more that discussion forum participants will choose to move on to greener pastures. In the end, if moderators pursue this path consistently, they effectively moderate themselves out of a job.

Just my two cents' worth. Cheers,

Ken

jerezano

Sep 30, 2006, 9:19 AM

Post #3 of 29 (3029 views)

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Re: [Brian] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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Hello Brian,

Censorship is an issue that we all must fight. Moderating a board is NOT under any circumstances to be musderstood as censorship. But we all have different criteria as to good taste.

I can't sympathize with you because first of all I can't recall on this forum any such thread as "going native". But you are right, a search for "going native" on all foro shows no such phrase anywhere.

I have also searched Alex's recent postings which were mainly in three areas. Border fence controversy, Ethics, and a search for an apartment in Nogales.

All three forums are still there, although the Border controversy has been locked. Is that the one? If so, I can't find any joke about going native from you there. So maybe it has been deleted. If so, probably for good reason. Ask the moderator why.

If we are going to exercise our right to complain, and hope to generate change in the attitude of the moderator, perhaps we should be more specific in what we are complaining about. Personally, I would always make any complaint privately with the moderator first, but then my 80 years of life have tempered my youthful bursts of anger. My unsolicited counsel to tempestous youths would be the same.

Adiós. jerezano.

Gringal

Sep 30, 2006, 9:59 AM

Post #4 of 29 (3016 views)

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Re: [kenhjr] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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Due to disagreements on what is the desired level of moderator control, San Miguel now has three local forums. One is a free-for-all, another is lightly moderated and the third is strictly moderated. The end result is that the same people are posting the same things on all three lists, with some exceptions. I know that some folks will assume this is just SMA in action, but that is not my point.

My point is that very few of the people posting on Mexconnect are writing anything so informative and/or profound that if it were zapped, there would be any great loss to history. Case in point is the wiped out post about "going native", cloned from the previous discussion about border fences and illegals. My opinion on the subject got disappeared along with the rest. No big deal. My attitude is that posting here, like driving, is a limited privilege.

Also, there are people who get so wrapped up in expressing their point of view that they lose sight of the fact that this is just a bunch of people in a semi-civilized discussion group. It's not on Prime Time. Basically, it is a very small part of whatever Big Picture makes up our lives. If it has become more than that, it's something to think about.

The moderators have a job similar to herding cats. Usually, they err on the side of inclusion. I think we should lighten up on them. They are an endangered species.

arbon

Sep 30, 2006, 10:07 AM

Post #5 of 29 (3010 views)

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Re: [Gringal] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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"Due to disagreements on what is the desired level of moderator control, San Miguel now has three local forums. One is a free-for-all, another is lightly moderated and the third is strictly moderated. The end result is that the same people are posting the same things on all three lists, with some exceptions. I know that some folks will assume this is just SMA in action, but that is not my point."

I have noticed that in SMA, and no one on the SMA forums know how to read an electric bill.

They just claim they are paying to much for electricity, with out stating how much electricity they use, or the price per unit, in KW hours.
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sparks

Sep 30, 2006, 10:31 AM

Post #6 of 29 (3003 views)

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Re: [Brian] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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Over regulation may be why these message boards are so quiet .... oh well, it's not mine to decide

Sparks Mexico - Sparks Costalegre

Gringal

Sep 30, 2006, 2:09 PM

Post #7 of 29 (2960 views)

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Re: [arbon] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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No one is allowed to post on a SMA forum without taking a test. You are shown an electric bill and if you can read it, you are barred from the site.

Betcha know lotsa blond jokes, too.

Brian

Oct 2, 2006, 5:53 AM

Post #8 of 29 (2823 views)

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Re: [Gringal] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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Alex's thread titled "going native" questioned why it appeared that so many expatriates to Mexico find so much fault with the United States. I suggested that most expats are senior citizens and that they tend to be more vocal and involved with political matters than younger folks. Mexico forbids foreigners from engaging in public discourse or demonstrations about Mexican politics. As a result, given this restraint on free speech, they confine their public political discussions to matters involving the US and, at the present time, much of this is negative. Perhaps this will refresh the memories of those who read the original postings. I do think that there is room on this message board for substantive postings rather than just chat room quips and thus, I do tend to care about whether messages are deleted.

saludos
Brian

drfugawe

Oct 2, 2006, 6:37 AM

Post #9 of 29 (2807 views)

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Re: [sparks] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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In the old days of Mex-Connect, folks left because they tired of being flamed - today, they tend to leave when their messages are deleted. Take your pick.
jm
_________________________

"Self-respect: the secure feeling
that no one, as yet, is suspicious."
H.L. Mencken
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Brian

Oct 2, 2006, 7:09 AM

Post #10 of 29 (2796 views)

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Re: [drfugawe] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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OK....I got your point. There is another alternative, though. I'll do my best to continue to read other's messages and not respond to or initiate anything controversial in the future. Thanks for the advice.

Brian

alex .

Oct 2, 2006, 8:51 AM

Post #11 of 29 (2763 views)

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Re: [Brian] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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I appreciate your patience with my thoughtless postings of late. I notice that when Brian, Wendy, and Jerezano paraphrase my words that the words come out much more like what I wanted to say. I simply do not have the skills to write what I'm thinking. Fortunately, you guys "get it". I also realize that since I started here in 1998 my view of Mexico has evolved. This is a site for Mexico afficionados and I no longer am one. Its been 10 months now since we had our scare in Guerrero and we vowed to never set foot in Mexico again. My wife, born and raised there will never return. Our relatives, the ones I told you about that caravaned down, also will not go back. We all are selling our real estate and business holdings in Mexico, remotely from here, and that will be that. Of course we will continue to send money to relatives that have no other choices. You see, as Ms. Rose pointed out, one either gets over it or moves on. We elected NOT to get over it.
Que les vayan bien,
Alex

ignacio

Oct 2, 2006, 10:11 AM

Post #12 of 29 (2729 views)

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Re: [alex .] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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As an example of this 'big brother' or 'big sister' being very inconsistent and ridiculous, please read the thread just locked:

" News Story re Border Wall" and see if you can tell why it was locked !

jerezano

Oct 2, 2006, 10:42 AM

Post #13 of 29 (2716 views)

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Re: [ignacio] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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Hello Ignacio,

You asked:********** As an example of this 'big brother' or 'big sister' being very inconsistent and ridiculous, please read the thread just locked:********* [The Border Fence controversy]

That's an easy question. The thread shifted from a very intelligent discussion of the border fence controversy to an acrimonius listing of what seems to be wrong with USA Immigration policies. It no longer had Mexico as a subject. The final posting was removed by the webmaster himself, not the moderator. And he gave good reasons for locking the thread. Where is the inconsistency in that?

Or were you talking about another thread?

Adiós. jerezano.

ignacio

Oct 2, 2006, 1:27 PM

Post #14 of 29 (2665 views)

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Re: [jerezano] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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Please read what my post states, "News Story re Border Wall"

It does NOT reference the 'The Border Fence controversy'.

I expect this thread to be locked up soon, since we are (I at least am) questioning the wisdom of big brother.

Hum, I can almost hear the footsteps of the Though-Police !

(This post was edited by ignacio on Oct 2, 2006, 1:36 PM)

sparks

Oct 2, 2006, 4:33 PM

Post #15 of 29 (2628 views)

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Re: [ignacio] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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I'm surprised there is much moderating going on here at all after the mayhem that used to go on here 4-5-6 years ago where there was no control except to delete each message or thread (from anonymous posters).

With subscription ... you just send them (someone) a notice as a PM ... or post reasons for cooling it in the thread.

Locking a thread without comment is lazy. Didn't I comment on this before -- well shut my mouth

Sparks Mexico - Sparks Costalegre

roni_smith

Oct 2, 2006, 7:07 PM

Post #16 of 29 (2595 views)

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Re: [Gringal] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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If you say anything complimentary about Carol Schmidt's new book the moderator there has shown a tendency to delete the post or lock the thread.
------
Planning for Mexico Move Blog

roni_smith

Oct 2, 2006, 7:09 PM

Post #17 of 29 (2592 views)

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Re: [sparks] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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Threads are locked and posts are deleted without comment and David does not respond all the time when one emails him about the deleted posts or locked threads
------
Planning for Mexico Move Blog

Mark Landes

Oct 4, 2006, 9:32 PM

Post #18 of 29 (2488 views)

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Re: [roni_smith] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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It wasn't "Dr.Zhivago" but I just finished reading my signed copy and it was a good read.
Which leads me to something Yuri asked when his half-brother said his Laura poems were not liked..."Not liked by whom? Why not liked?" (Well that's in the movie version anyway---been awhile since I read the book).

There is one thought in the book that still reverberates "We are not here to change Mexico but to let Mexico change us. Please. I feel as if I have been under stress my entire life (p.41). I have always felt less stress being in other countries. Whether Taiwan, Europe or Mexico there was always more time to visit the market or drop by a friend's house. I think less dependence on a personal car was part of it---convenient public transportation and more emphasis on human relationships versus becoming a better consumer.

My copy of Mexican Camping arrived yesterday. I've never owned an RV but after reading Church's book I will have an idea of what it would be like.

Still working. Still NOB.
Mark

roni_smith

Oct 4, 2006, 9:44 PM

Post #19 of 29 (2481 views)

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Re: [Mark Landes] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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Mexico Camping is on my bookshelf also, along with a few others.
------
Planning for Mexico Move Blog

pat

Oct 5, 2006, 8:54 AM

Post #20 of 29 (2424 views)

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Re: [Brian] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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"What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?"

Brian, this is just one person's opinion, but judging from the thread about the Gringo tax, I would guess that threads are locked once responses drop below the level of intelligent conversation. On second thought, I have seen other threads where that theory hasn't applied. :)

Pat

Brian

Oct 5, 2006, 1:55 PM

Post #21 of 29 (2370 views)

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Re: [pat] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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Pat

You are right to an extent. The thread deteriorated to the point that someone asked the question "which is the greatest country?". It was then locked for future comments. My problem was with the fact that later the entire group of messages was censored and completely removed from the website for reasons unknown. I spent a lot of thought on my contribution and didn't appreciate its removal along with the sillier stuff.

Regards
Brian

talosian

Oct 10, 2006, 6:28 AM

Post #22 of 29 (2288 views)

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Re: [Brian] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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Submitted without comment.

“Censorship reflects a society’s lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. Long ago those who wrote (America's) First Amendment charted a different course. They believed a society can be truly strong only when it is truly free. In the realm of expression they put their faith, for better or for worse, in the enlightened choice of the people, free from interference of a policeman’s intrusive thumb or a judge’s heavy hand. So it is that the (American) Constitution protects coarse expression as well as refined, and vulgarity no less than elegance. A book worthless to me may convey some value to my neighbor. In the free society to which our Constitution has committed us, it is for each to choose for himself.”—Justice Potter Stewart, Ginzburg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463 (1966) (dissenting)
"When all logical explanations have failed, we must look to the illogical for the answer.

caldwelld

Oct 10, 2006, 6:41 AM

Post #23 of 29 (2285 views)

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Re: [roni_smith] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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There, an example of where some ceonsorship is worthwhile. On the other hand if you post anything to that author's forum that she doesn't agree with - poof - cyber trash.
dondon

ignacio

Oct 10, 2006, 8:54 AM

Post #24 of 29 (2258 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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I believe that the forum censors have the right to eliminate foul or racist language, BUT they DO NOT have the right to trample on my right of freedom of speech and expression.

This forum server is in the USA, where this posts are recorded (remotely) and viewed (remotely) via the internet. We pay in USA funds, from USA banks, so the Constitution of the good old USA applies.

We have the right to criticize anyone or anything political, be it in the USA, Mexico, Israel, Timbuktu or anyplace.

This is a membership forum of, for, and by adults, NOT a public plaza, so our criticism can not be misconstrued, and regulated as if we were children. If someone does not like the ideas posted, they can skip the post, enter their own thoughts, or go on to read something else.

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it"

arbon

Oct 10, 2006, 9:34 AM

Post #25 of 29 (2243 views)

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Re: [ignacio] What is the criterion to delete and/or expurgate message threads?

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ignacio, you think,

"This forum server is in the USA, where this posts are recorded (remotely) and viewed (remotely) via the internet. We pay in USA funds, from USA banks, so the Constitution of the good old USA applies."

I think this forum server is in Vancouver, Canada.
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