Forums > General > Living, Working, Retiring

1 2 View All

alex .

Sep 15, 2006, 7:55 AM

Post #1 of 50 (3007 views)

Shortcut

Ethics are different in Mexico (?)

| Private Reply

In a word, yes. Riding the coattails of Wendy's "salaries" post and our esteemed contributor Jerezano, I'd like to suggest that a Mexico survival kit should include an understanding of the differences. Say that a supplier to your small business delivers your merchandise late, short quantity or shoddy quality. He knew it when he sent it, you didn't when you received it. Too bad, he outsmarted you and he has absolutely no remorse and will bid on your next order. Its up to you to get the upperhand on the next deal. You order something, take delivery, but don't pay for it. If he sent it trusting you to pay then he got outsmarted. See how it works? transactions on a personal level have a similar dynamic.
Alex

Gringal

Sep 15, 2006, 8:52 AM

Post #2 of 50 (2966 views)

Shortcut

Re: [alex .] Ethics are different in Mexico (?)

| Private Reply

Is this somehow different from business ethics in the U.S.A. - or anywhere else? Read the papers lately?

World Survival 1A: count your change, check your order and watch your, um, donkey.

(This post was edited by Gringal on Sep 15, 2006, 8:55 AM)

alex .

Sep 15, 2006, 9:27 AM

Post #3 of 50 (2958 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Gringal] Ethics are different in Mexico (?)

| Private Reply

Yes: we know what to expect in the US. We do not expect to get shorted at the gas pump in an institutionalized fashion, nor do we expect to get compromised again by the gas station attendant. We do not expect to have a 20 dollar bill substituted with a one dollar bill and then have to ante up again. We do not expect a lawyer specializing in your real estate transaction to put the property in his name instaed of yours.We do not expect witnesses to lie in court.
We DO expect corrupt behavior from politicians, hipocritical behavior from purveyors of religion,and institutional manipulation of the stock market.
I say the ethics are DIFFERENT , not worse.
Alex

Brian

Sep 15, 2006, 10:08 AM

Post #4 of 50 (2944 views)

Shortcut

Re: [alex .] Ethics are different in Mexico (?)

| Private Reply

Hi Alex

Both you and Gringal seem to have different perspectives based upon your each living/having lived in two decidedly different parts of the Republic of Mexico. Having lived in both Tijuana and San Miguel de Allende for more than four years each, I must say that the expatriates in the former are much more savvy, aware of their circumstances and less likely to wear rose-colored glasses in admitting the drawbacks of their adopted country. However, in SMA, it is very common to hear "Yes, but that happens in the United States as well!' One striking difference between the two cities, I found, is that the level of bi-lingualism is vastly higher at the border both by gringos and Mexicans. Expats in San Miguel are at a big disadvantage when entering into business transactions as a result. Frequently, recommendations are made for plumbers, electricians and lawyers based primarily upon the qualification "speaks English" I appreciate your pearls of wisdom which have been garnered from the mean streets of TJ :-)

un saludo cordial
Brian <----currently in Austin and having to unlearn all the bad driving habits I acquired from the "Me First" mexican driving school.

(This post was edited by Brian on Sep 15, 2006, 11:24 AM)

alex .

Sep 15, 2006, 10:26 AM

Post #5 of 50 (2935 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Brian] pearls

| Private Reply

Brian,
You might have a good point there.....one doesn't usually get his cable connection pilfered in SMA ?
Alex

Gringal

Sep 15, 2006, 11:27 AM

Post #6 of 50 (2912 views)

Shortcut

Re: [alex .] pearls

| Private Reply

Yes, SMA is supposedly a kinder, gentler experience for expats who don't speak English. That is, if they don't mind paying the "gringo tax" for using the English speaking plumber, etc.

For those who make the effort to learn Spanish and do business accordingly, it is a much more economical experience.

If you don't watch your donkey and your electric cable in the grittier sections of SMA, you will be on foot and paying your neighbors' bills here, too. As a resident of one of those areas, I watch both.

wendy devlin

Sep 15, 2006, 5:18 PM

Post #7 of 50 (2864 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Gringal] pearls

| Private Reply

Somehow this thread morphed to a 'pearls' heading.

'Pearls of wisdom'...pearls before swine...or something else completely. Oink!

Kidding aside, I'm not sure if everyone is talking about the same subject. Street smarts, in my mind, are one thing.
What alex is talking about, something a little different.

A person usually develops street smarts because they've been fooled or scammed because they're new to town, green as grass, inexperienced, unwary, trusting, silly, stupid, vain, dishonest... are there other criteria?

Street smarts develop out of experience...often negative.

You lose money, stuff, utilities or trust, in cons or scams etc.often from strangers. Sometimes the more places you get around, the more risks you take, the more different kinds of people you met, the more experiences, the more street smarts.
Or perhaps you just get to know your own baliwick....really well.

Hence Gringal's comment of watching her donkey applies. Everywhere.

What I think alex is trying to describe, is perhaps, a serious game of one-upman-ship. More convoluted, more systemic among certain people in the 'game'.

For many years as a woman and a tourist woman at that, this game didn't really affect me much personally. I was kept quite busy, learning the language, watching out for cons and scams and developing Mexican 'street smarts':)

Then for 5 years, I explored possible options as a potential investor in business or running a small business in Mexico.
That's when I started noticing the 'game' first played by Mexicanos with unsavvy extranjeros. Gradually I started noticing the 'game' Mexicanos vs Mexicanos. And then to a women's version.

Since I was in my 40's, with a husband and three children, I thought it critical to understand exactly the kind of people who would be first my Mexican neighbours and potential friends. Then assess my competition through to suppliers and clients, and the BEFORE taking any sizeable risk. That's when learning curve took a sharp bend upwards.

Based on what I found out at that time, in Mexico, in business, I'd be a lamb led to the slaughter.

Thankfully I didn't have to find out everything, the 'hard-way'. One can learn a great deal from other people's experiences. In my case, other people's 'business', pre-cautionary tales.

I think a person does another person a great favor when they tell them honestly, 'I did this and this is what happened to me." The good, the bad and the ugly.

Especially if that person is Mexican or an extranjero who decided to stay, and learn. A person who doesn't sugar-coat their reality or try to 'snow' the other person. Or chi....ar with them. Everywhere.

People still willing to give a good ol' fashion 'heads-up'.

sonful

Sep 17, 2006, 8:45 PM

Post #8 of 50 (2743 views)

Shortcut

Re: [wendy devlin] pearls

| Private Reply

I agree with Alex. Within a twenty day period in Ensenada trying to get my new home in order, I was short changed, overcharged, left with the all the debree on my sidewalk instead of hauling it away as agreed upon. Given torn $200 peso bills that are I have to throw in the garbage and had Notorio swindle another $1,600 out of me and on top of that had me close on house only to find out later that Trust was never completed.

That was just in 20 days. I read that Mexican's do not trust one another. I thought that strange when I first read that. Now I understand the culture and know why they are of that mind set. It is not a pleasant way to have to live.

sfmacaws

Sep 18, 2006, 1:01 AM

Post #9 of 50 (2717 views)

Shortcut

Re: [sonful] pearls

| Private Reply

I also think Alex has pointed out a big difference in social expectations and cultural values between the US and MX. Things that US culture thinks are rather despicable and for which you would be looked down on are not seen that way in MX.

It's not easy to adjust to because that kind of thing is pretty deep in our psyche and not something we are used to questioning. I know it is a difficult thing for me, I've not had the huge problems that are mentioned above (knock on wood) but I have had small examples of it and I am afraid of bigger examples.

He is right that getting one over on someone is not looked down on and it seems to be a coup, you get points in the game of life. That life is a game is a bit different for us as well, a game against everyone around you and scoring points on them is a goal. Certainly not the way we learned to see life in the 1960's.

The small things I've had done to me have really pissed me off. I lose that laid back ni modo, SoCal valley girl attitude and I just want to rip someone a new a**hole. It's not a response that helps the situation any, I can verify that. So, what's the advice on how to deal with it when you get tagged in what to us seems like a underhanded, dishonest and despicable act? Especially if it comes from someone that you need to continue dealing with, family or an associate? I have figured out that I'm unlikely to change how I see this, so I'm really looking for a way to stuff the anger and not make myself nuts and a way to continue interacting with the person without animosity. Perhaps if I understood it better it would help.

Unlike Bubba and some others here, I don't think Mexico is perfect in all ways. I think there is a lot wrong with the way things are done but I recognize that it is not my country and I need to adjust my expectations. I'm just trying to figure out a way to keep a relationship going that I would drop kick out of my life if in the US, or frankly, if I didn't need it.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

sfmacaws

Sep 18, 2006, 1:31 AM

Post #10 of 50 (2713 views)

Shortcut

Re: [sfmacaws] pearls

| Private Reply

OK, I thought about this post and realized it was way too vague. Here's the scenario, someone who you have a business and friendship relationship with sidesteps ethics and then lies to you about it. It inconveniences you quite a bit but doesn't really cost you money. Still, they lied about it. That is what really irks me. In my value system, you admit an error, apologize and go on if you want to be thought well of and respected. If you lie and make up implausible stories then I think you are a jerk. That becomes a bigger problem for me, my lack of respect for you, than the original issue.

What I want to know is how would a Mexican deal with this? The reaction I'm getting is that it is not a big deal. Yes, they got you on it but just watch closer next time and meanwhile life and the relationship should go on as if nothing had happened. That's tough for me, I need some examples of how I would feel about it within this culture, how I would react and how I would act with the person afterwards. I'm fighting my first instinct which is payback, partly because I need to keep this person in my life (no real choice about that) and because I'd no doubt lose if I did try payback. While revenge is best served cold, I don't really have the personality or the desire to carry this around endlessly.

If this same situation (including needing to maintain the relationship) happened in the US, I'd have one of those 'heavy, deep and real' conversations with them and lay it all out including how much respect I had lost for them and my expectation that they would change their ways. That's a joke in this case and I think it's because of the way the culture sees things.

So, how do they see things? Alex, what kind of reaction is expected from you when a relative cheats you? When is anger an acceptable reaction? Is it ever acceptable for a woman or are the rules different there too?

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Rolly

Sep 18, 2006, 7:37 AM

Post #11 of 50 (2670 views)

Shortcut

Re: [sfmacaws] pearls

| Private Reply

Being lied to by friends bothers me a lot, but I have begun to learn to accept it without an outward reaction. I got a lot of it during the two years I was involved with house building. Vendors often lied about delivery times, but so far as I know, I was never cheated by a vendor or charged a gringo price. I was lied to and cheated by some of the workers on the job. But I reminded myself that I was also lied to and cheated on projects in the USA.

My own experiences say that the malfeasance in the USA seemed more deliberate and calculated. In Mexico it seems more spontaneous and off-hand.

Rolly Pirate

alex .

Sep 18, 2006, 8:54 AM

Post #12 of 50 (2641 views)

Shortcut

Re: [sfmacaws] social expectations and cultural values

| Private Reply

The difficulty, in my view, is understanding how the cultures evolved so differently from the same set of ten commandments.
I can personally reconcile being scammed by relatives by calling it charity.
I get thru real estate transactions, court actions, and other professional interactions by counting on the fact that it will take me more than one, probably more than two tries to get it done right. For example, if your opponent convinces two witnesses to lie in his favor then you get three to lie in your favor. If one Notario cheats you, chalk up the loss and get another; don't give the same guy another opportunity because he WILL take it.
I do not know a woman's place in "the game". I've seen them play it in the form of cash pyramid schemes and other clever forms of "resource management" but I do not know the rules.
Alex

(This post was edited by alex . on Sep 18, 2006, 8:58 AM)

arbon

Sep 18, 2006, 10:14 AM

Post #13 of 50 (2623 views)

Shortcut

Re: [alex .] social expectations and cultural values

"The difficulty, in my view, is understanding how the cultures evolved so differently from the same set of ten commandments."

Alex, the "Cultures" did not evolve from the same set of statements, nor does the theology of "Forgiveness".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

wendy devlin

Sep 18, 2006, 11:51 AM

Post #14 of 50 (2592 views)

Shortcut

Re: [arbon] social expectations and cultural values

| Private Reply

>The difficulty, in my view, is understanding how the cultures evolved so differently from the same set of ten commandments.

Someone on these forums, once exclaimed, "The Puritans are landing on the shores of Moctezuma!"

Meaning, the extrajaneros, mostly from Anglo-Judeo/Christian heritage, johnny-come-latelys of the 20th and now 21st centuries.

From before the Code of Hammurabi, sixth king of the Amorite Dynasty of Old Babylon there have been written law codes. They set out what you shall or not do, and the punishments with fines, pay-back or often death.
"An eye for an eye." operating in many cultures, in many eras.

In Mexico, there is 'law' but the law is not always obeyed.

Boiling down so often, to a matter of interpersonal dynamics.
A lot of what we're talking about here on this thread, for the 'perps' seems dependent on whether they think they can get away with it. Who can get one over on who. The stakes?

Like Rolly suggests, there can be casual, spontaneous situations too.

You present an opportunity. Some people feel compelled to take advantage.
A little lie, how can that hurt?

Plenty of calculating people, though, who like skilled chess players, have the moves and countermoves, figured out pretty far in advance.

Unaware, how many twists and turns, any given situation can take, how can you even begin to be a player.

In Catholic Mexico there is still a God of Forgiveness. That seems a huge part of the culture.

With forgiveness, flowing around more freely, there's more acceptance of 'sin'. Matters of conscience, between you and God, so to speak. I'm not really sure there is a way out of dilemnas like Jonna and alex have described except to avoid situations like this in the first place.
Un hombre preparado vale por dos.

And perhaps find out about people before entering into any kind of business relationship.

Among some people of my acquaintence, chronic 'lying' seems no biggy(not really a sin) Stealing, no biggy either. Adultry, accepted even celebrated etc.

And no biggy, stiffing 'the boss-man, the gringo etc. Corruption, no biggy either.

That isn't to say there aren't with people with 'ethics' that include honesty, integrity and other classic virtues.

The trick has always seemed to me, to find out, who operates in what fashion. Who says one thing, yet does another. How to avoid a position of vulnerability in the first place. Easy to say, of course, harder to put into practice.

Find those ethical people and become real friends.

And then there's the dichotomy between the concept of 'forgiveness' on one hand, and the concept of 'revenge'. Seen that revenge culture thing up a little too close and personal.

And then there's the sweet revenge, patiently waiting in the weeds, for a long time, years, for that perfect chance.

This is a way simplistic jab at the topic.

(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Sep 18, 2006, 11:55 AM)

arbon

Sep 18, 2006, 12:34 PM

Post #15 of 50 (2568 views)

Shortcut

Re: [sfmacaws] pearls

The posts by Alex, sonful, Joanna, et al, all seem to imply a dependency on others who are not dependable.
-------------------

I too was Dependant on a car dealership in Mexico, but I had expected that even if the work turned out to be unsatisfactory, by accident or on purpose, I was covered by a 3 month warranty in the States and in Canada by the same company.
---------------------

The same company in the States and Canada both honored the Mexican warranty.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(This post was edited by arbon on Sep 18, 2006, 12:37 PM)

Gringal

Sep 18, 2006, 1:18 PM

Post #16 of 50 (2545 views)

Shortcut

Re: [wendy devlin] social expectations and cultural values

| Private Reply

Just a little nitpicking on religions, here. In Catholicism, you only get the forgiveness if you promise to not only do the penance but "go and sin no more." In the Old Religion where the Ten Commandments came from, the sinner had to make reparations to the one sinned against. Having had an acquaintance who belonged to one of the new evangelical religions, I heard that you got the forgiveness automatically.

In any case, ethics and religion should, big "should", go hand in hand. Often, they don't even have a nodding acquaintance.

Most people in all places find excuses for the little sins and thus.... you still have to watch your donkey.

(This post was edited by Gringal on Sep 18, 2006, 1:22 PM)

sfmacaws

Sep 18, 2006, 1:47 PM

Post #17 of 50 (2534 views)

Shortcut

Re: [alex .] social expectations and cultural values

| Private Reply

I guess my real problem is controlling my own anger, most problems end up as a personal problem. I'm working on it and last night I had a few cocktails and was obsessing on this. So, the first rule I'll make in this situation is to not ever deal with this person after a drink, it's a lot harder not to get mad.

Right now I have an opportunity to tag him back and that is what is making me think about it so much. It's really not me to get into these games and while the temptation is huge I think I will pass because I don't think I would be happy with myself if I went this route. Did I mention that the temptation to ch***ar this person is HUGE????

OK, I'm going to rise above this and be a better person. Maybe some guilt will slide off onto him although I doubt it. My impression is that if/when he finds out I didn't screw him when I could have he will only think I'm stupid or don't have the guts. That's where the cultural differences really shine, when someone acts outside your own reference point you rarely think that it is a cultural difference, you usually think that (US looking at MX) they are a jerk or (MX looking at US) they have no huevos.

We have this many subtle problems when dealing with another judeo-christian culture, no wonder dealing with arab and asian cultures is so difficult. God help us if we ever do have to negotiate with extra-terrestrials.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Marta R

Sep 18, 2006, 4:32 PM

Post #18 of 50 (2507 views)

Shortcut

Re: [sfmacaws] social expectations and cultural values

| Private Reply

The ancient Goths, or so the story goes, said that each decision should be made "once drunk and once sober."

Marta

sonful

Sep 18, 2006, 8:16 PM

Post #19 of 50 (2455 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Marta R] social expectations and cultural values

| Private Reply

I think you can make all the excuses you want for the behavior, but I still contend it is a lousy way to have to live. And I don't think that is just an "American" thing. I know many societies that hold honesty and trust a very important and desired trait. And I don't think it has anything to do with religion. Cheating, lying and deception hurt. I for one don't want to be responsible for inflicting pain on anyone.. How do you dismiss that as a cultural thing.

There are obviously societies that are oppressive to their people, who kill, rape and steal. Is that "just their culture". Am I not able to say that I think what they are doing is horrid.

In my book, I don't care what religion you follow or don't follow, or how family oriented or un-family oriented you are, or any other difference that sets you apart from me. But when your actions that you may consider normal in the course of your day, hurt me or someone else, I will say "you are not a good person' in any country.

I know some of you reading this are perhaps thinking I am angry or perhaps bitter. Well that is not true. I am dissappointed and sad that it has to be this way. I do realize that not all Mexican's fall into this catagory and their are many nice peiople too. However, I guess what I am saying there are enough of the dishonest ones to make living in this country a real challange for us used to the scale tilting more in the other direction.

(This post was edited by sonful on Sep 18, 2006, 8:26 PM)

caldwelld

Sep 19, 2006, 12:02 PM

Post #20 of 50 (2361 views)

Shortcut

Re: [sonful] social expectations and cultural values

| Private Reply

Interesting. So the fact that we have more people in jail in the US, per capita, than almost any other country, just a reflection of better law enforcement, or is it per chance that those on this forum have never really had to live in neighborhoods in the US where the notion of honesty and honor may be not be that much different than in a broad cross section of where they do have to live in Mx?
dondon

sonful

Sep 19, 2006, 2:32 PM

Post #21 of 50 (2319 views)

Shortcut

Re: [caldwelld] social expectations and cultural values

| Private Reply

An interesting thought. I'll give you that. But i don't know as poverty allways equates to dishonesty. I don't think we have greater crime here in the US as compared to Mexico. Also the kind of rip off's in Mexico would put an American business out of business.

I agree however, if I lived in an impoverished neighborhood, I would see first hand more crime. But we are talking percentages here. In the US I don't have to count my change all the time, or watch so closely that I am not being short changed on deliveries. Nor do I or most people have to put bars on our windows to keep the bad guys out.

However, I do understand how someone can be insulated from the problems by not living in or near the neighborhoods that house the problems, and therefore not seeing it as such a big problem.

I think this is true of most of the politicians living in Washington or the expensive upscale areas surrounding it. Take the issue of illegal immigration. Do you think the politicians sitting in their Georgian Townhouse's know what it's like living in Phoenix, Arizona, Los Angeles or South Texas now. They haven't a clue what it's really like. The numbers thrown at them don't make significant impression. They haven't experience what it is like to become the minority in your own country. So I guess I am agreeing with your analogy to a limited extent.

arbon

Sep 19, 2006, 2:58 PM

Post #22 of 50 (2313 views)

Shortcut

Re: [sonful] social expectations and cultural values

"They haven't experience what it is like to become the minority in your own country."

Now that is an interesting thought?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ignacio

Sep 19, 2006, 3:55 PM

Post #23 of 50 (2294 views)

Shortcut

Re: [arbon] social expectations and cultural values

| Private Reply

Some one said: " In Catholicism, you only get the forgiveness if you promise to not only do the penance but "go and sin no more.""

That is real neat, mafia loves it, drug dealers love it, crooks everywhere love it!

Yeah, you promise to 'go and sin no more', and then you continue sinning, and all you have to do is go to confession or in your heart say you are sorry (to yourself) and you go and do it all over again.

This circular logic (or more like lack of it) is common to most current beliefs, and allows all these people to break the law and damage their neighbors well being, just by 'thinking' they are sorry and they won't do it again... knowing full well that they will do it again in a NY second!

The old teachings of the 'Golden Rule' are gone forever, or so it seems.

This is true now a days everywhere in the world, some places more than others, so the real question is

¿ how do you get back to respecting the individual and your neighbor as yourself ?

(This post was edited by ignacio on Sep 19, 2006, 3:58 PM)

alex .

Sep 19, 2006, 4:17 PM

Post #24 of 50 (2277 views)

Shortcut

Re: [caldwelld] social expectations and cultural values

| Private Reply

I agree that People are People everywhere, if that is what you are saying. The way people adapt to the consequences of living in third world anarchy (yes I mean Mexico) is not the same as what we are used to. I'm not saying either is better or worse, just that acknowledging the differences goes a long way toward assimilation.
Alex

hoping 2

Sep 24, 2006, 6:25 AM

Post #25 of 50 (2103 views)

Shortcut

Re: [alex .] social expectations and cultural values

| Private Reply

I moved from one small town to another in a different region of the U.S and got different prices, dishonesty and cheated numerous times. But at the same time there were also people that started to help by telling me you got overcharged, call this person next time (after I had proven my integrity). There were also many good people in town. When establishing my Mx. home I saw the same honesty and dishonesty. Maybe there are some cultural differences in it all. The only difference in honesty in the U.S and Mexico is the accent. IMHO people are people, good and bad, cultural differences can take place within the same country. Watch out for yourself wherever you live. The times have changed everywhere.

1 2 View All