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waltw

Sep 14, 2006, 6:56 AM

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Interesting article in Spanish this morning about Oaxaca. APPO fears there might be another attempt to remove the teachers from the Zocalo prior to Sept. 15th.

http://www.laopinion.com/...00000000000000501330

Here's another article in English that gives a good overview of the situation, though strongly slanted. I have a hard time stomaching the comments about APPO winning the "hearts and minds" of the populace. If you can get past the writer's own personal bias, it gives a good overview of what's gone on.

http://www.counterpunch.org/salzman08302006.html

Bubba

Sep 15, 2006, 2:50 PM

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Well Walt, today is the 15th and, according to Guadalajara´s MURAL, Oaxaca legislators have requested that President Fox send in Federal forces to clear the state capital of what they call "radical organizations" that have occupied the capital for 114 days in order to "re-establish public order¨" in the region Meanwhile, sympathizers with APPO (La Asamblea Popular de Pueblos de Oaxaca) have been blocking the main highway from Ocosingo to Palenque in Chiapas and demanding $50 Pesos per vehicle in support of the movement to permit passage.

we shall see where this takes us today and tomorrow.

I found the COUNTERPUNCH article you referenced to be enlightening even though it has a political bias and I recommend those of you who haven´t read it take the time do so.

Interestingly, the U.S. ambassador to Mexico has warned U.S. citizens to be cautious about traveling to this country because of the "...increasing level of brutal violence in Mexico.". He urges special caution in Nuevo Laredo and along the northern frontier and Guerrero and Michoacan, states which have recently seen especially violent crime. No mention of any southern states other than Guerrero.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Sep 15, 2006, 2:53 PM)

waltw

Sep 16, 2006, 8:25 AM

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In Oaxaca, APPO temporarily lifted the baricades in the Zocolo to allow for the "grito" last night. Apparently, few people attended.

Here's another good overview of the situation in Oaxaca, in Spanish. It hard to find much written in English regarding the situation in Oaxaca these days.

http://www.univision.com/...940937&pagenum=2

Meanwhile, people's lives here continue to be impacted by the strike.

- a taxi driver to lose his house because he can't make the monthly payments - no tourists to drive around
- a Oaxaca couple back from 4 1/2 years in Dallas, TX, trying to start a business selling leather jackets. They can't
get a permit because the government office has been closed down. According to news reports I've read, 26 public government buildings have been taken over here.

It seems almost everyone here has been impacted by the strike in some way, not to mention the kids who aren't in school.

Seeing a few bumperstickers and posters up around town: "Oremos por la paz de Oaxaca"

Bubba

Sep 30, 2006, 9:59 AM

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According to this morning´s (September 30th) Cuarto Poder newspaper out of Tuxtla Gutierrez, Mexico´s Secretary of Exterior Relations has advised that the continued problems in Oaxaca are beginning to have a seriously negative impact on Mexico´s image in Europe that is affecting tourism in Oaxaca and, to a lesser degree, in the country in general. The British government has just warned British citizens to beware of the risk of traveling to Oaxaca City. U.S. State Department warnings have been in place for some time. Meanwhile, business leaders in Oaxaca continue to maintain pressure for federal forces to restore order to the city but this article reports no movement yet in that direction.

I can´t see any signs that resolution is near.

Meanwhile, the Tuxtla Gutierrez newspaper El Diario de Chiapas for the same day reports that business interests in Chiapas fear that the conflict in Oaxaca is having negative impacts in Chiapas including insecurity on highways connecting Chiapas with Oaxaca State and the fact that some 60% of vacationers anticipating trips to Chiapas have cancelled their vacation activities. These same business interests claim that more than 20 restaurants in Chiapas have been forced out of business by diminished tourism resulting from the prolonged problems in Oaxaca that have frightened tourists from all of Southern Mexico.

It´s a shame that business people and those employed in businesses associated with the tourist trade must suffer because of what is really a highly localized conflict in Oaxaca City but this too shall pass. Meanwhile, as we are flying occasionally from Guadalajara to San Cristobal to manage a home remodeling project in that city, we are benefitting from hugely discounted air fares on Aviacsa. Those of you who have friends or relatives interested in visiting the region should let them know of these air fare deals that are cropping up here and there. Their visits can only help those in the tourist industry in need of help and these places are not nearly as dangerous as many are led to believe.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Sep 30, 2006, 10:54 AM)

Jim in Cancun / Moderator

Sep 30, 2006, 1:26 PM

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I do see a resolution coming soon. Unfortunately, I don't see it being a peaceful one ending in a group hug!

sfmacaws

Sep 30, 2006, 2:09 PM

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I think you are right Jim. Those forces asking for federal intervention will probably prevail, perhaps it's overdue. I just hope it is done well. Whatever plays out, there is no easy solution.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

raferguson

Sep 30, 2006, 5:11 PM

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My guess is that Fox will send in troops or soldiers before he leaves office, not leave the mess for Calderon.

Mexico is not really a rule of law country, and the goings on in Oaxaca are only one example.

Richard

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

Rolly

Sep 30, 2006, 8:03 PM

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I think Fox has been reluctant to send in the troops because such actions have turned out so badly in the past. The army has a poor record in dealing with public disputes. If the army goes in, it's likely to be very ugly.

Rolly Pirate

waltw

Oct 1, 2006, 11:36 AM

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Can certainly understand the reluctance on the part of Fox.
I don't think he's too keen on bloodshed in Oaxaca being part of his legacy.
Interesting commentary below on how Mexico's poltical parties may be viewing the current conflict in Oaxaca and some of the difficulties they may encounter, if Fox decides to send in the troops.

http://www.narconews.com/...e43/article2102.html

raferguson

Oct 1, 2006, 5:09 PM

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I was reading an editorial, I think in El Universal, about dialogue vs. violence. Their point was that violence was the exclusive province of the state in civilized societies. They said that we don't dialogue with kidnappers, we use force. I think that they felt that the time for dialogue was over, and it was time for the state to reassert its authority at the point of a baton or a gun. They were not defending the governor, just saying that anarchy was not acceptable.

Another commentator said that the situation in Oaxaca could blow up like the peso devaluation of 1994. Salinas de Gortari did not want to take the heat for taking action on the overvaluation of the peso. This left Zedillo with a time bomb that blew up 20 days after he took office. Oaxaca could equally be a time bomb left for Calderon. This commentator thought that the impact on Mexico from the situation in Oaxaca could be as severe as the peso devaluation, something that had a huge impact on Mexico for several years, with some effects lingering 12 years later.

Other articles that I have read suggest that the problems in Oaxaca were reflecting badly on Mexico in the international sphere, and perhaps starting to affect foreign investment.

I did not realize that the conflicts with the teacher's union in Oaxaca are more or less an annual affair, but this time the situation is more severe.

It looks like many of the opinion leaders are of the view that something has to be done. The problem is that some want to get rid of the governor, and some want to use force. The governor is PRI, and the PAN need the PRI to get anything done in the legislature, since the PRD is so angry that cooperation with the PRD is unlikely. Would getting rid of the governor solve the problem? Maybe not.

Richard

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

geri

Oct 2, 2006, 5:15 PM

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Seems like when gringos get together and talk, they say, "send in the troops." I agree with Rolly. It's not that simple. The protestors, for the most part, are unarmed. How would Mexico look, internationally, if the military started mass shooting of unarmed teachers? Well, maybe we'll find out?

I can't help but smile when I think of how a troupe of aproned women banging spoons on pots and pans took over the radio station! I'm not defending the ethical or legal aspects of it, just the practicality the govt. faces. Knotty.

I just got back from 10 days in Puerto Escondido. Tourism, of course, is waaay down, which means so are hotel rooms and restaurant prices. I had a large room (basic) on the beach with swimming pool, double bed and single bed, CLEAN, for 80 pesos a night! Plus, it was kinda nice seeing the town full of locals (young) and surfers.

Talk on the street here in Oaxaca is that troops will probably be sent in. 'Tis sad indeed. Right now, it's messy and inconvenient, but not dangerous. I haven't seen anything written about how unbelievable it is that a city the size of Oaxaca is functioning without a police force with so few incidents. Most of the images people have are what they imagine it must be like with such a large protest going on for so long. Except for the 4 a.m. tear gas attack back in June, there hasn't been any mass confrontations.

I heard about the shootout at the OK REAL while I was in Puerto, but I don't think anyone was killed. Kinda scary for tourists, however.

geri

Oct 2, 2006, 5:34 PM

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ooops...I just read a news article that two banks were attacked today. YIKES. I was in one, of course, trying to scour up rent money. The article I read didn't mention which bank and put the blame on a group other than APPO and teachers.

Marlene

Oct 2, 2006, 5:51 PM

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Geri, you be safe down there! This is an article that popped into my news alerts today.

http://www.mexiconews.com.mx/20695.html

waltw

Oct 2, 2006, 6:20 PM

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Saw a few articles on this event too.
They're now saying that 3 banks were attacked.
Apparently, a new group has claimed responsibility:
Organización Revolucionaria Armada del Pueblo de Oaxaca (ORAPO)

geri

Oct 2, 2006, 6:42 PM

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YIKES! I wonder if the new group is composed of what Mexicans call los porros? Quien sabe.

Bubba

Oct 2, 2006, 7:57 PM

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Seems like when gringos get together and talk, they say, "send in the troops."

Geri:

That is certainly an unfair stereotype. This gringo and any gringos he would be inclined to get together with are not advocating any such draconian action but, according to today´s (October 2nd) Noticias de Oaxaca, there is considerable military activity in the area of Bahias de Huatulco including a massing of helicopters at Huatulco´s airport and troop movements in that coastal area.I´m only quoting the newspaper. I´ll check out the headlines tomorrow morning.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Oct 2, 2006, 8:33 PM)

DoDi2

Oct 3, 2006, 12:00 PM

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From Noticias de Oaxaca today.... in an article about the "attacks" on the banks they are basically reporting that the group claiming responsibility is believed to be instigating these actions at the behest of the governor's supporters in order to give a pretext for the military to be called in... something which is expected to happen soon given all the troop movements in the area and the military helecopter reconnoitering over the city.

"Por su parte, el vocero de la Asamblea Popular de los Pueblos de Oaxaca (APPO), Florentino López, se deslindó del supuesto grupo insurrecto y acusó a Ulises Ruiz Ortiz de los "bombazos" y de montar una nueva farsa como la articulación de guerrillas ficticias.
"Es una estrategia que trata de montar el señor Ulises Ruiz para justificar la intervención del ejército"..."

(The speaker of the APPO, Florentino Lopez, gave his view regarding the so-called insurgent group and accused Ulises Ruiz Ortiz of "bombazos" and this new farce of then linking it up with ficticious guerillas.)

Also I heard from a Oaxacan friend that the head of the Oax. school system who was a big supporter of the teacher's strike has now recently withdrawn his support. This is a big blow to the striking teachers! He has announced plans to re-open the schools and staff them with retired teachers who he will pay both a salary and thier retirement benefit and any striking teachers who don't report in to work will be fired. His position now is that the teachers have won thier original demands for salary increases and that now they should be satisfied. He feels that the other demands like getting rid of Ruiz are outside the scope of what they should be negotiating and that it's bad faith on thier part not to return to work after winning what they had originally struck for.

I think the air may be coming out of the tire... I imagine that once the schools open things will eventually go back to normal unless Ruiz does another stupid thing (again) by attacking the teachers with force.

Bubba

Oct 3, 2006, 3:08 PM

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I wish to apologise to geri whom I accused of stereotyping "gringos" as being of one mind in the present Oaxaca conflict. Geri, is, after all, a sociologist and "Marxist" and certainly above crassly accusing the sub-set of unworthy human beings she cavalierly refers to as "gringos" of being the bigots she infers they are as they all eagerly support the heel of the government against the miscreants disturbing the civility of her town with its history of favoritism patronizing the rich. This expat colony living among Oaxacans must be a piece of work.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Oct 3, 2006, 5:34 PM)

bournemouth

Oct 3, 2006, 3:34 PM

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Bubba - I don't know about the expat colony in Oaxaca being a piece of work, but I certainly recognize you as one. Cease being so unpleasant in your trolling - Geri has lived in Oaxaca for a long time, is a sane poster and has years more experience in Southern Mexico than you.

Bubba

Oct 3, 2006, 6:20 PM

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Geri has lived in Oaxaca for a long time, is a sane poster and has years more experience in Southern Mexico than you.

Tell us all about southern Mexico from your vantage point at Lake Chapala, bournemouth, Geri wrote me personal messages attacking me for calling attention to the fact that she was stereotyping what she calls "gringos" and touting her background as a sociologist. I don´t care if she´s lived in her insular world for 1,000 years, broad ethnic stereotyping brings no light to the darkness that hurts us all.

If calling attention to stereotypical thinking is "unpleasant...trolling" then here I am, warts and all.

Marlene

Oct 4, 2006, 12:52 PM

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Back on track..... Geri, is there any rumblings or reactions yet on the teachers refusing to participate in today's forum with the Government?

Brian

Oct 4, 2006, 1:31 PM

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From Ana Maria Salazar's blog:

" Stay away from Oaxaca.... It is hard to believe that the federal government has allowed the Oaxaca conflict to go so far. There is no government, there are no laws. And even though their demands may be just, including the stepping down of the governor, the APPO and the Teachers Union have kidnapped the City. This is not a peaceful movement and they are willing to use violence, even extreme violence if necessary. I was interviewing Dane Schiller from the San Antonio Express who was at the Zocalo in Oaxaca, for my daily shows Imagen News. And as the interview on his cell phone was taking place a group of 40 men approached him started screaming at him, demanding to find out who he was talking to, what was he doing, and they definitely started to harass. This was a potentially violent situation, which Dane handled magnificently. He was able to de-escalate the situation and actually continued with the interview with me…But believe me, it was a dangerous situation for Dane. In fact as he was finishing the interview, he let the audience know that the APPO thugs were detaining another man. We later found out that this man is being “tried” by the protesters…. I guess it is all in a days work for anyone reporting on Mexico… You can listen to the interview with Dane Schiller if you download the October 2d show of IMAGEN News… at www.imagen.com.mx/news

(This post was edited by Brian on Oct 4, 2006, 1:49 PM)

caldwelld

Oct 4, 2006, 7:16 PM

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It is not evident how this will turn out but IMHO the govt needs to be very strong and forceful now. It has gone on too long. They should find a way to round up the instigators among the teachers and throw the book at them. These same types have held govts to ransom in US, Cda and all over Europe in the last decade. The lesson from those disputes tells us clearly that the only way is to break these unions. It would be nice to at the same time kick the Gov out of office but that I gather is more delicate politically.
dondon

geri

Oct 5, 2006, 6:42 AM

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Bubba, I tried to settled this civily and privately. I am NOT a Marxist. I used to lecture on Marxist theory. I am trying to fit in what is happening in Oaxaca into it...not easy to do. Just an intellectual effort on my part.

You are soooo saracastic. This doesn't sound like an apology at all. Personal attacks are not allowed on most forums.

The teachers, I think, felt obligated to support APPO because APPO supported them, but I think they are going to go back. The protestors have withdrawn from the TV station. There is a police presence here, low key, and hopefully things will return to normal without too much gunfire.

The "bank bombings" I feel certain weren't from the main protestors. They have been, and claim to remain, unarmed. I think they will defend themselves against armed military, but so far there seems, to me, to be kind of slow, civil return to normality. But that could change. I really hesitate to post because I get called such bad things.

Most of the gringos and ALL of the middle class Mexicans that I know and those are the only ones I can speak for want federal police/military intervention. They see that as the only way. So far, and this is in the early stage, it seems to be underway carefully. Just my opinion.

Bubba

Oct 6, 2006, 6:59 AM

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Regarding geri´s latest post, the reader will note that she continues to use the offensive term "gringo" in defining some nebulous group of expatriates and foreign visitors (I presume). It would be nice if we could all use descriptive terms for people not patently exclusionary and negative in nature. The terms "expatriate" and "foreigner" or "foreign visitor" are not pejorative in nature and adequately describe local folks who are not native nor citizens for the most part.

She now concedes that she is referring to most of the "gringos" and middle class Mexican she knows. That is quite different from her original statement assigning blanket attitudes to "gringos" in general. I assume she knows few if any of the middle class Oaxacans who are members of APPO and associated sympathetic groups. She certainly doesn´t speak for the people I know in the Oaxaca area who are Mexican citizens and tell me that, except for the area immediately in and adjacent to the zocalo, the city is going about its business and is safe to visit and conduct normal business, We visit Oaxaca often and will be visiting more often when we move into our new home in Chiapas next spring. In fact, we were in Oaxaca when all this started in May and will return there in December. We look forward to that trip.

Many dependent upon the tourist trade are suffering and I feel for them. However, it is important to remember that there are certainly many Oaxacans of various economic classes who support all sides in the current action. I have simply been reporting what I have read in the newspapers and television news and feel it is the responsibility of guests of this country such as I and geri to remain neutral and objective in observing these events. Neither geri nor I have sufficient knowledge of the social, political or economic forces at work here to presume to speak for others although I can understand that a few inconvenienced and self centered expats might like to see their little paradise return to normal.

Many thoughtful Oaxacans of all classes realize that the utilization of federal police forces or military units to try to end the demonstrations is an alternative fraught with danger that might result in extensive civil strife. One can see the problems arising from force just by reflecting on what has followed Governor Ruiz´ earlier attempts to end the demonstrations by force. Force may be necessary in the final analysis but I doubt President Fox will be polling disenchanted expatriates before making a decision in that regard.

Of course, geri is welcome to voice per opinion but her reaction to my initial post was way over the top. I did not attck her personally just her use of a generalization in describing local attitudes. These forums are here to promote thoughtful discourse not uncontested narrowly based opinion.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Oct 6, 2006, 7:03 AM)

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