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nfabq

Sep 2, 2006, 9:24 PM

Post #51 of 70 (3237 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Jonna,it is ever thus--a cry in the wilderness.It's much more pleasant to ignore experience everywhere else and say it will be different here;easier,too.Unfortunately it's usually a case of head in the sand.

The important thing about this moment is that it's the only possible time to resist.Once WalMart has a foothold the game is over and lost.That's why I resist so strongly. Why not google something like Class Action Suits against WalMart or Opposition to WalMart, etc,and see what their employees' and other communities' experiences have been. Don't say "I don't know about Puerto Rico," google it and find out. Then tell me why it will be different in Mexico. I can be convinced by facts or even logic.Can you?

Norm


sfmacaws


Sep 2, 2006, 11:06 PM

Post #52 of 70 (3228 views)

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Re: [nfabq] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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I don't have a dog in this hunt. I see it as change, a different way of doing business, perhaps a different concept of business, whatever. It is though and I don't think that fighting WalMart because they are more efficient and put some small businesses under is an issue. Tough Sh*t is how I feel about it, get sleeker, get stronger or go under. The employee issues are not unique to WalMart, it's the way the future is going and has more to do with outsourcing and world labor prices than anything else.

I shop in WalMart's in the US and like them. I also like their policy of allowing RVs to spend the night in their lots, I spend a lot of money in WalMart because of this. I would probably shop there anyway at times but not as often.

Now add Mexico WalMart's to the issue and I feel even better about them. I like the selection, I like the prices and while I usually can't park my RV there I still go there frequently. I think the people of Mexico deserve the same options for shopping as NOB.

I'm not one who thinks that Mexico is a 3rd world country, I've seen 3rd world countries and they are not even close to the affluence that exists in Mexico. Like the US, there is also a lot of poverty. If bigger stores with lower prices benefits both the middle class and the poor then what's not to like? There are so many things in both the US and Mexico that are reprehensible but not likely to change and I just don't see WalMart in that league.

Why would I want to go off and read some web sites that clearly (from their urls) are just as one-sided and obsessive as your posts here have been? That's why I said ni modo. It's not something I could change in Mexico, not something I care much about and not something that ranks up there in my mind with truly egregious abuses. Even with the really bad stuff, the world rolls on.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




nfabq

Sep 3, 2006, 12:10 AM

Post #53 of 70 (3219 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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In other words,Jonna,what you are saying is"don't confuse me with facts."

If I am only for myself,who am I?

Norm


sfmacaws


Sep 3, 2006, 12:43 AM

Post #54 of 70 (3216 views)

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Re: [nfabq] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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No! and I think your statement is rude and insulting. I disagree with you Norm, and I do not think that what you are presenting is fact. Nowhere near fact...biased and opininated and politically based BS! I have been as nice as I know how to be about this but you are relentless in pushing your political belief about this and unwilling to listen when I and others have said we do not agree.

I'm out of this. WalMart is not something I'm willing to spend a lot of time on and it is not something I am willing to debate endlessly with someone who is obsessed.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Moisheh

Sep 3, 2006, 6:21 AM

Post #55 of 70 (3204 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Bubba: I should have mentioned that although the stores suck the restaurants were amazing. I drool when I think of a little "diner" like place. I think it is called Chili verde. The grill is visible from the restaurant and the grill guy is an artist. Dont even consider counting fat grams! Everything is smothered with cheese and onions!!!

Moisheh


Bubba

Sep 3, 2006, 9:26 AM

Post #56 of 70 (3181 views)

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Re: [nfabq] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Bob,I never thought you'd "descend to the level of pollyana". Your own post,as well as others,points out that it's the competition,whoever it may be,not WalMart that causes the chains to improve their way of doing business.

Norm:

The information that some other big box chains had banded together to form buying cooperatives and had increased operating efficiencies in order to compete with WalMex came straight from the Guadalajara press (MURAL) in an article published some time ago. Of course you are right that it is competition that causes other retail chains to improve their way of doing business. What WalMart did was move into a market (Mexico) where thought processes and ways of doing business had atrophied among management personnel of other chains and provided not only competition but insights regarding more efficient business practices. Before WalMex, there was a bit too much inbreeding among local chain stores and the new kid on the block forced change with new and innovative retailing techniques introduced from afar.

We do not disagree that, human nature being the way it is and always has been, WalMart will overreach itself, grow too big and predatory in nature, then fatigued and dated and collapse or become diminished of its own accord as did Sears and Ford and Kress and on and on.

I personally don´t shop at WalMart. I shop at Soriana because that is what we have in Chapala. If I want to improve the shopping experience, I´m off to Guadalajara to Costco or Liverpool of Sears or other such places . In San Cristobal I´ll shop at Chedraui when I look to a supermarket because that is all that is available. However, when I get serious in Chiapas, I´ll drive down to Tuxtla Gutierrez, 40 minutes away on the new freeway and visit a market where competition should work to my benefit.

By the time WalMart becomes obsolete Bubba will need a periscope to observe the phenomenon from six feet underground.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Sep 3, 2006, 10:05 AM)


nfabq

Sep 3, 2006, 2:03 PM

Post #57 of 70 (3155 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Bob, I think we have come to a meeting of the minds. The one difference that I think may remain is the length of time it will take WalMart to start taking over local chains and their buying coops. WalMart has a reserve of unbelievable Billions and will begin to use some of it fairly rapidly to start supressing competition,one way or another.

Let's hope periscopes are a long way away. Pleasure doing business with you.

Norm


caldwelld


Sep 3, 2006, 4:51 PM

Post #58 of 70 (3127 views)

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Re: [nfabq] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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I guess you don't read well. What I pointed out four days ago was "WalMart Mexico incidentally is the largest retailer in Mexico since entering around a dozen years ago and is also Mexico’s largest employer." So what do they need to do to get a "foothold" in your view?
dondon


nfabq

Sep 3, 2006, 5:09 PM

Post #59 of 70 (3119 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Guess I was too busy responding to other messages. You are right, of course,but for an outfit this big, now larger than General Motors,Mexico is still a drop in the bucket.

You were also right in your post about the ultimate future of small businesses and what customers they would wind up serving.I intended to say so in a response to that post,but it got away from me,too. I apologize for both slip-ups.

Norm


nfabq

Sep 3, 2006, 5:28 PM

Post #60 of 70 (3112 views)

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Re: [nfabq] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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PS
In your judgement,Caldwelld:
Will the kind of economy whose customers are poor and buy very small amounts and can't take advantage of lower prices because they have no tranportation, support the current standard of living in Mexico,let alone an improved one?
Norm


caldwelld


Sep 4, 2006, 6:57 AM

Post #61 of 70 (3065 views)

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Re: [nfabq] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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I am not sure I understand your question as not all Mexicans are poor by any means and those shopping at supermarkets do not necessarily "buy less" because they are "poor". They may spend a higher percentage of their pay packet on groceries than average NOB.

The prospects for the Mexican eocnomy in the near future look very strong provided AMLO and company do not cause a major political crisis that begins to impact the economy seriously. The PAN will have a slight plurality in the Congress not enjoyed by Fox which should allow him to complete some economic reforms started by the PAN and with a continued steady hand and further opening of the Mx economy to global (or at least NAFTA) competition the majority of Mexicans should see their spending power improve over the next decade.

According to Business Week the ranks of that middle class, or those making between $7,200 and $50,000 a year, have swelled to record levels of around 10 million families. That's equal to nearly 40% of all Mexican households, vs. 30% just a few years ago. It helps that for almost a decade now, wages have been rising faster than inflation. In addition, women are having fewer children, and more of them are joining the workforce, giving households more money to spend and save. Homeownership is the other key factor in Mexico's transformation, because it allows families to build equity, establish credit histories, and move up the economic ladder.

Now some will say that is exactly what we don't need if the Mx we know is to be preserved. To them I say "poppycock"; they are simply being selfish by wishing for no evolution and growth in Mx. And yes, some will get hurt in the process.
dondon


nfabq

Sep 4, 2006, 6:35 PM

Post #62 of 70 (3008 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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I was trying to paraphrase from memory your following statement from one of your Aug.30 posts and clearly didn't do it well.You said,and I certainly agree,"The small tienda is doomed in the future to serve the convenience market and those that have no transport,not those looking for a bargain". What I intended to ask you is what effect this statement,in your opinion,will have on the way of life in Mexico,assuming what you predict comes to pass? Is the key phrase in your statement, "the small tienda is doomed"?And is that because the customers left to them will be almost entirely the very poor? What would you expect the effect of the loss of small tiendas and markets will be on the way of life,the culture, of Mexico?

I also think you are right on the button in all you have written in this post. I wonder if we can also agree that plans and programs have to be put in place to keep those who have to be hurt to the barest minimum? Can we also agree that the goal is a greater and more prosperous Mexico rather than exploitation to enrich a few?

(Aside to Bubba: Yea,Bob, I know.Pollyana is everywhere--sue me.)

Norm


johanson


Sep 4, 2006, 10:06 PM

Post #63 of 70 (2979 views)

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Re: [nfabq] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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You guys come from different parts of the world than I. We never went to a Wal-Mart when growing up in Seattle, because there weren't any. Even today there aren't any. Why? Because it would not make economic sense. The Wal-Marts of this world only go into areas where they can make money. And if the stores are charging too much, they can go in, sell the product at a lower price and still make money. If the competition there is already efficient, if the prices in Seattle are already low enough, Wal-Mart is not going to waste its time there. They are only looking for areas where one is being charged too much, for areas where they can charge less and still make money.

And yes, those who are still using old fashioned technology, those who are not buying in mass either through a cooperative if they are small or by themselves if they are large, are going to be forced to sell their products for so much that stores like Wal-Mart will move into that area and force these smaller business persons to become more productive or force them out of business.

It's the survival of the fittest. It always has been that way from the beginning of time and it will continue to be that way regardless of the well meaning intensions of those few who would not shop at a store where the prices are cheapest in support of those who were charging too much and who as a result thereof where put out of business.

Would I shop at a Wal-Mart if it were to move close to Ajijic? I would have no problem shopping there. But I am more familiar with Costco and for that matter Soriana, where I have been much more often than to a Wal-Mart.

Oh, I met with store management at Costco some six years ago (it's nice having a press card) and they informed me that there would be a Costco on The Chapala side of Guadalajara within two or three years making the drive to a Costco about half as far as it is today from Ajijic. Well it's been six years. Maybe it's time to check again.



jreboll

Sep 4, 2006, 10:24 PM

Post #64 of 70 (2974 views)

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Re: [johanson] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Too much is being made of the neighborhood store being put out of business. That may be true NOB(although see how many circle Ks are popping up everywhere) but the demographics are different SOB. Half of my friends don't have cars and the other half who do, like myself, hate to take it out of the carport to drive to a store. It is so much easier to walk 20 feet to the corner store or a block or two to the mercado or to the local specialty stores. The only time I go to Aurrera is when I have a sufficiently large enough list of items that I cannot find anywhere else.


caldwelld


Sep 5, 2006, 6:58 AM

Post #65 of 70 (2952 views)

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Re: [nfabq] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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I should also have included, as a role for the small tienda, in addition to serving convenience needs and those without transport, the need to service specialised needs. I meant also to mention that Walmart in the US actually has a program now that they use when moving into a new market whereby they offer training to local businesses that may be at risk from their competition, on how to compete with them (WalMart).

I am not sure what changes this all means for the Mx landscape but it will certainly mean that it will be harder to make much money from a tienda that offers much the same stuff as the supermarket. (There are so many small tiendas now one wonders how they make enough to make it worth their while. On the other hand if it is just to supplement the family income, use space in the house that otherwise would go vacant, and give daughter or grandmother something to do, the supermarket will take longer to drive such businesses to ground.) Eventually some will revert to the high-tech model made popular by "7-11" o r "Mac's Milk", the equivalent in Mx being Oxxo perhaps. Others will specialise and others will eventually close.

I don't think it is possible to design an effective social program to ease the pain. After all these small stores are an entrepreneurial (i.e. at their own risk) enterprise. Furthermore, if the economy grows as expected, there will be more profitable opportunities elsewhere for those disrupted by the box-store competition. Remember it is a gradual process. There is not necessarily a sudden shock involved so the Mx landscape will change only gradually, as it has in other countries all over the world since the beginning of time.
dondon


arbon

Sep 5, 2006, 1:00 PM

Post #66 of 70 (2919 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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caldwelld
"According to Business Week the ranks of that middle class, or those making between $7,200 and $50,000 a year, have swelled to record levels of around 10 million families. That's equal to nearly 40% of all Mexican households, vs. 30% just a few years ago. It helps that for almost a decade now, wages have been rising faster than inflation."

http://www.cepr.net/...sbrot/2006_06_28.htm

"It’s pretty clear that Mexico needs to reconsider its economic policies. Over the 25 years since 1980, income per person in Mexico has grown by just 17 percent. To see how bad this is, one need only look at the 20 years from 1960-1980, when the country’s per capita income grew by 99 percent. If the Mexican economy had simply continued to grow at its pre-1980 rate, average income in Mexico would be at the level of Spain today. There would be far fewer Mexicans looking to emigrate illegally to the United States.


Mexico’s pre-1980 growth was good but nothing spectacular for a developing country – South Korea grew more than twice as fast and Taiwan at nearly three times Mexico’s rate over the same period. So the country’s past growth performance is a reasonable benchmark by which to compare the unprecedented growth failure of the last quarter-century. Many have hailed Mexico’s post NAFTA growth as a success, but even this was only about a third of its pre-1980 performance.

However, most people do not understand what economic growth is or why it is so important. For comparison, imagine a discussion about baseball where hardly anyone understood batting averages, and those who understood them did not distinguish between good and bad averages, labeling a .175 average “outstanding.”
As a result, the focus of criticism is on Mexico’s poverty, which is mainly a result of the growth failure. In 2004, nearly half the country lived below the official poverty line of about $4.00 per day."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



caldwelld


Sep 5, 2006, 10:27 PM

Post #67 of 70 (2854 views)

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Re: [arbon] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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arbon

http://www.dbresearch.com/...rowth%20prospects%22

"February 16, 2006
Mexico’s transformation since the Tequila crisis of 1994-95 has been
remarkable. The country’s macroeconomic policies have come to be regarded
as among the best in all the emerging markets and its economy, as one of the
most open. Mexico is the third most popular destination for foreign direct investment
worldwide.

Mexico’s growth potential over the next 15 years is respectable,
according to DB Research’s long-term growth model Formel-G. While growth
prospects are certainly less spectacular than those for other emerging markets
such as India, China and Malaysia, they are good enough to lead to a substantial
improvement in Mexican living standards in the medium term.
The Mexican economy is facing strong competition from Asia,
especially China, and particularly with regard to its main export market, the
United States. In our view, Mexico’s economic resilience and the huge competitive
advantage of its geographical closeness to the US gives it a good chance to hold
its own. There is, however, no room for complacency. Investment in education
should be pursued more aggressively and liberalisation and privatisation of infrastructure
cannot be delayed any longer without hurting economic prospects
seriously.
There is a fair chance that Mexico’s industrial profile will make a
successful transition from low value-added to more sophisticated
products. The outlook is promising for the electronics and automotive sectors in
particular, but the fastest growth is expected in the services sector, especially
financial services and real estate."

All this proves folks is what we have known all along and that is that if you put all the economists in the world in line they would never reach a conslusion on which they could agree. It is a dismal science but I for one prefer the more optimistic outlook above.
dondon


Georgia


Sep 6, 2006, 6:58 AM

Post #68 of 70 (2823 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Something here worries me: if the fish, produce, etc. in the stores there were rotting and putrid, where did the restaurants get the food they served you from?


alex .

Sep 6, 2006, 8:31 AM

Post #69 of 70 (2808 views)

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Re: [nfabq] The WalMart Army

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Sounds like WalMart has some kind of power of conscription; are people forced to work there?
Alex


jennifer rose

Sep 6, 2006, 10:00 AM

Post #70 of 70 (2787 views)

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Re: [alex .] The WalMart Army

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Thread locked. It's becoming obtuse and abstruse. Not to mention prolix.
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