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Poncho32

Aug 30, 2006, 3:09 PM

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Topics on Mexico

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Should we keep our heads in the sand or should we work towards keeping things out in the open?
Most of the people who either visit this site are either living in Mexico on a permanent bases or just a few days or like my family close to 50% of the time.
Do we not owe it to all these people to keep them aware of what is occurring that may or may not effect their lives?
I as a long time half year resident of Mexico want to know what is happening around me.
And I for one want to hear the truth of what is occurring.
Hence forth I want to hear your opinions on this matter.
Not a week goes by that you see articles on recent opinions pertaining to events in Mexico such as the one I am about to paste on.I have personally seen the disruption of what this man can do and they are not fun in being caught up in.
Please give me some direction of how we can properly help the viewers of this forum with out appearing that we are crying wolf unnecessarily.
Please view the following article.
Bud


Lopez Obrador: Sore loser – or worse

THE NEWS TRIBUNE
Americans have good reason to fret about Mexico. Ten percent of the Mexican population has already fled to the United States, and the two countries’ economies are joined at the hip. What happens there happens here.
What’s happening there right now is worrisome. Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, who narrowly lost the July 2 presidential election, has been steadily morphing from sore loser to demagogue to potentially something worse.
Obrador was within his rights to legally challenge the results of the election, in which his opponent, Felipe Calderon, had outpolled him by a mere 0.6 percent.
Until a few months ago, Obrador – a charismatic campaigner who’d tapped into deep discontent about Mexico’s uneven economic growth – was favored to to win. Then things started moving against him, including growing concern in Latin America about the reckless, authoritarian style of Venezuela’s leftist president, Hugo Chavez.
The last thing Mexico needs is its own Chavez, an economic illiterate and Latin strongman in the socialist mold. But Obrador at times seems to aspire to precisely that role. Not content with battling the returns in court, he has – on little evidence – declared the election stolen and called on his supporters to occupy the streets, demanding a recount.
On Tuesday, after the Mexico’s Federal Electoral Tribunal announced that its partial recount had not changed the outcome, Obrador said he would create his own government and urged the Mexican public not to accept a Calderon presidency.
Mexico does have a long, sordid history of political corruption and electoral fraud under the longtime rule of the Institutional Revolutionary Party. The irony is that there’s already been a national backlash against the PRI and its rigged votes; Mexico now runs some of the most credible elections in the world.
Obrador’s increasingly extra-legal claim to power threatens to deepen the rifts in this politically fractured nation.
The United States, which has become the safety valve for Mexico’s poverty and social problems, has a big stake in this. By rights, Mexico should be a booming, prospering country; it is rich in workers, natural resources and tourist appeal. But it still needs aggressive, wrenching reforms to encourage enterprise, expand educational opportunities and root out official corruption.
This requires a decisive government that understands wealth-creation – and it requires peace. A siege of political paralysis or even chaos is not what the doctor ordered



1ajijic


Aug 30, 2006, 3:32 PM

Post #2 of 48 (3408 views)

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Re: [Bud Crest] Topics on Mexico

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In the last month and a half we have been to Zamora, Uruapan, Patzcuaro, San Miguel de Allende, Dolores Hidalgo, and Guanajuato and obviously the cities in between and seen no political unrest. That said, a friend who just got back from Mexico City said that it is a mess. They are losing a fortune every day in the capital. If it ever was a political issue it is certainly now an economic issue for that city. There have been a number of editorials in the papers criticizing Lopez Obrador for his actions and approach.

In the end the middle and upper classes voted largely for Calderone and the poor for AMLO, assumedly it will ultimately fizzle out. As the poor get colder and hungrier they'll have to go home. In the mean time the party is being drained of its' resources.
http://www.newbeginningsmexico.com


DoDi2


Aug 30, 2006, 4:00 PM

Post #3 of 48 (3397 views)

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Re: [Bud Crest] Topics on Mexico

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That article is so full of b.s. it leaves me wondering if the newspaper editors actually wrote it themselves or cribbed it from a PAN (or perhaps an American Enterprise Institute) press release.

For Mexico's sake I hope the U.S. does keep it's head in the sand and it's nose out of the business of our neighbor to the south. I'm sure they will work out the issue much better themselves without our interference or advice. If you doubt that ask Argentina or Chile, or Venezuela for that matter.

:-)


(This post was edited by DoDi2 on Aug 30, 2006, 4:04 PM)


Blackjack Davie

Aug 30, 2006, 5:09 PM

Post #4 of 48 (3375 views)

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Re: [DoDi2] Topics on Mexico

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Dodi2, I completely agree with the first paragraph of your post. The second one caught me by surprise...I would bet my bottom dollar that the US does not have its head in the sand, nor its' nose out of the business of this election. Can you imagine the disconcert felt by the US government that Mexico might follow the lead of Argentina, Chile, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc.? Beyond any doubt, at least in this mind, the US has played a huge, if not determining role in this election.


dtracy8671

Aug 30, 2006, 5:19 PM

Post #5 of 48 (3366 views)

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Re: [Blackjack Davie] Topics on Mexico

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People, and this is meant at no one in particular, but I believe we should choose our words very carefully in regards to discussing politics on a webboard. I would hate to see Mexico Connect shutdown.


DoDi2


Aug 30, 2006, 6:44 PM

Post #6 of 48 (3343 views)

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Re: [Blackjack Davie] Topics on Mexico

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In Reply To
...I would bet my bottom dollar that the US does not have its head in the sand, nor its' nose out of the business of this election. <...cut...> Beyond any doubt, at least in this mind, the US has played a huge, if not determining role in this election.


BlackjackDavie, good point and I stand corrected... in fact the if anyone wants to follow this further check out a blatant concrete case of America's mano en la masa by googling on the company ChoicePoint and it's role in both the U.S. and Mexican elections. And how about that 'swift-boating' of AMLO at the last minute... pure Rove.

At least Mexico doesn't use Diebold computers (yet) and so it has a paper trail which can still be re-counted... oops... or maybe not.


sfmacaws


Aug 30, 2006, 6:57 PM

Post #7 of 48 (3335 views)

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Re: [DoDi2] Topics on Mexico

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Of course the US is paying close attention to the election in Mexico. Mexico also pays close attention to elections in the US and both countries do their best to influence the outcome of laws in the other country that will effect them.

One thing is different. In Mexico legal immigrants are always afraid and warning each other not to talk about Mexican politics. In the US, ILLEGAL immigrants march and protest with impunity.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Bloviator

Aug 30, 2006, 9:31 PM

Post #8 of 48 (3285 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Topics on Mexico

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In Mexico, legal immigrants tend to avoid politics for fear of immigration problems. Illegal immigrants try to be completely invisible.


Rolly


Aug 31, 2006, 7:05 AM

Post #9 of 48 (3243 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Topics on Mexico

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Mexico does a much better job of enforcing its immigration laws than the USA does. I suspect they learned a thing or two from watching the mistakes being made NoB.

Rolly Pirate


DoDi2


Aug 31, 2006, 10:00 AM

Post #10 of 48 (3208 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Topics on Mexico

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It's true that in the U.S. non-citizen immigrants can be involved in and try to influence politics while in Mexico that is verboten per the Mexican Constitution.

But it's not against the Mexican Constitution for non-Mexicans to have an opinion nor is it against the law to have a conversation about politics.


(This post was edited by DoDi2 on Aug 31, 2006, 10:02 AM)


Bubba

Aug 31, 2006, 10:35 AM

Post #11 of 48 (3183 views)

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Re: [DoDi2] Topics on Mexico

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I believe it is illegal for a non US citizen to sign political petition an give money to political organizations. The US may not be as good as enforcing their laws as Mexico.


DoDi2


Aug 31, 2006, 10:53 AM

Post #12 of 48 (3177 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Topics on Mexico

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I think the difference in law between Mexico and the USA re: how much foriegn ex-pats are allowed to involve themselves in local politics can be traced back to attitudes grown out of historical experiance.

For instance the Mexico military hasn't ever invaded the U.S. to enforce it's political will and control, nor have U.S. officials been corrupted by inflows of Mexican pesos to thier personal accounts so generously that they have sold off huge swaths of U.S. natural resources and rights to Mexican robber barons. (Unfortunately we can't say the same about corruption by Medical lobbyists or Exxon oil.... but that's off topic).

So Mexico finding itself raped pillaged and stripped of half it's territory by foriegners is more sensitive than we are NOB where we still remain a proud, if at sometimes cantankerous, nation of immigrants in spite of what Lou Dobbs, Jim Gilchrist, and the (so-called) Center for Immigration Studies would have us become.

que viva la diferencia


(This post was edited by DoDi2 on Aug 31, 2006, 11:01 AM)


sfmacaws


Aug 31, 2006, 11:30 AM

Post #13 of 48 (3160 views)

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Re: [DoDi2] Topics on Mexico

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Quote
nor have U.S. officials been corrupted by inflows of Mexican pesos to thier personal accounts so generously that they have sold off huge swaths of U.S. natural resources and rights to Mexican robber barons.


Oh Please! They forced those dollars into their accounts. The corruption and the lack of will to stop it existed then as it exists now, probably more so. When you have shuttered your mind to only see one side of an issue you get this kind of apologetic BS. No different than those you berate for only seeing the other side.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




DoDi2


Aug 31, 2006, 11:35 AM

Post #14 of 48 (3157 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Topics on Mexico

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nor have U.S. officials been corrupted by inflows of Mexican pesos to thier personal accounts so generously that they have sold off huge swaths of U.S. natural resources and rights to Mexican robber barons.


Oh Please! They forced those dollars into their accounts. The corruption and the lack of will to stop it existed then as it exists now, probably more so. When you have shuttered your mind to only see one side of an issue you get this kind of apologetic BS. No different than those you berate for only seeing the other side.


sfmacaws, I think you misunderstand me. I ain't apologizing for any politician.. haha.

My philosophy is this: people are people, and politicians are corrupt.


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Aug 31, 2006, 12:13 PM

Post #15 of 48 (3139 views)

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Re: [DoDi2] Topics on Mexico

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Quote...

sfmacaws, I think you misunderstand me. I ain't apologizing for any politician.. haha.

My philosophy is this: people are people, and politicians are corrupt.

My thought on the subject is that politicians are worse than lawyers nowadays. There isn't much difference between ambulance chasing and contribution chasing. IMHO Contribution chasing is much worse due to the large amount of people it has the capacity to affect. And, to keep it somewhat on topic as applies to Mexico, I'm fairly sure this applies SoB as well except for law and class action suites being nonexistant. Unfortunately it seems like a "peoples peaceful revolution (what a paradox)" both North and South of the border will probably be the only thing to overcome these problems, but too many are lacadaisical of just don't care what happens as long as their little corner of the world is left relatively undisturbed. I'm sure this applies more up North rather than down South as I don't see how the lower and middle class have much power, if any, SoB. I sadly doubt that these situations will ever correct themselves as long as power corrupts. Methinks we're going to have to look for a long, hard time before we can find an honest man in either country.
Getting older and still not down here.


tony


Aug 31, 2006, 12:16 PM

Post #16 of 48 (3135 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Topics on Mexico _ Which Mexico are you talkin about??

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I posted about my trip to Cabo earlier this year. The Gringo Gazette had an article talking
about how a sewage smell problem was fixed by a gringo. It went on to say that the local
officials AND the company who put in the system was corrupt because IMHO it wasn't up
to NOB standards. It went on to claim that the "new" system only needed a little water 2 X a day
and that the locals water company couldn't even do that. The Gazette used a water main
break as proof that Cabo couldn't supply water.
This rag is written by the NOB residents living in Cabo. There didn't seem to be any fear
of making exagerated political claims. Tony

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."


sfmacaws


Aug 31, 2006, 12:42 PM

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Re: [tony] Topics on Mexico _ Which Mexico are you talkin about??

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Baja, both of them, is almost a separate country from the mainland. Still, they should perhaps be more worried than they are. Perhaps because of the proximity to the US and distance from the mainland, ex-pats there often forget that they are in another country and when the realization hits it can hit them hard. There are some sad, sad stories from the Baja to illustrate this.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Poncho32

Aug 31, 2006, 5:00 PM

Post #18 of 48 (3058 views)

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Re: [Bud Crest] Topics on Mexico

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It was not my intent to get a political war to occur on this forum.I would like to go back to a statement that I made,
such as the one I am about to paste on.

Do we not owe it to all these people to keep them aware of what is occurring that may or may not effect their lives? Not a week goes by that you see articles on recent opinions pertaining to events in Mexico, such as the one I am about to paste on.I have personally seen the disruption of what this man can do and they are not fun in being caught up in.

Now what I was trying to find out should we at times when we see things happening that could effect peoples movement here and there to let them know that they should avoid these areas?
In no way was I implying what Obrador is doing is right or wrong ,just relating a happening to me and what is obvious that is going to continue to occur.
As I stated I have been caught up in two demonstrations that this guy created where we and others with us were just traveling through.
Is this above happening any different than Hurricane John that is now off the Mexican West coast?
Bud


DoDi2


Aug 31, 2006, 5:28 PM

Post #19 of 48 (3043 views)

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Re: [Bud Crest] Topics on Mexico

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Bud,

I missed where you told about how you were affected and what happened to you.

What happened?


ellijo

Aug 31, 2006, 5:30 PM

Post #20 of 48 (3042 views)

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Re: [Bud Crest] Topics on Mexico

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Do we not owe it to all these people to keep them aware of what is occurring that may or may not effect their lives?

I mean no disrespect, but you certainly do not owe me anything. Anyone who is contemplating a move South of the Border or South of their local mall would certainly do well to research their intended destination. It seems tiny bit patronizing to assume that without your efforts I might be in danger of being "unaware." Am I being too sensitive?



http://vidalago.com/wordpress/


MazDee

Aug 31, 2006, 7:28 PM

Post #21 of 48 (3027 views)

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Re: [Bud Crest] Topics on Mexico

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Bud, I think that the demonstrations have been mentioned, several times. And they are in the press if anyone (especially anyone that wants to travel right now) wants to read them. Nobody I know would travel to Mexico City at this time unless they had a pressing reason to do so. But your reason for posting seems to have been a thinly veiled attempt to start a discussion on Lopez Obrador and how he would affect the future of Mexico for expats and future expats. Many of us who live here, me included, have adopted a wait-and-see attitude. We can´t do anything else anyway. So, I agree with you that readers from up north should hear about this place, warts and all. But, while I don´t like Lopez Obrador any better than you do, unless these readers are well-read and knowledgable about México, it won´t make any sense to them anyway. Tell them where and how you had problems. Tell them to avoid those places. That would be enough.


tony


Sep 1, 2006, 7:30 AM

Post #22 of 48 (2946 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Topics on Mexico _ Which Mexico are you talkin about??

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I think the reality is that inspite of the law, Mexico allows alot more "Freedom" than we like to admit.
During the Comadante Marcos-Zapatistas era thousands of foreigner streamed into this area. While there
were arrests, it was no where close to what could have happened. I was in San Juan Chamula (Oaxaca)
the year before and it was a very mellow place. I now hear that beggars aproach everybody. IMHO
a result of simpathetic foreigners and their handouts.

As a side note, I would like to get back to that area. Tony

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."


Bubba

Sep 1, 2006, 8:03 AM

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Re: [DoDi2] Topics on Mexico

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For instance the Mexico military hasn't ever invaded the U.S. to enforce it's political will and control, nor have U.S. officials been corrupted by inflows of Mexican pesos to thier personal accounts so generously that they have sold off huge swaths of U.S. natural resources and rights to Mexican robber barons

Well, DoDi2, I personally thought this was a well made point. In lesser developed countries (LDCs) such as Mexico, of course there is more suspicion of outsiders who become involved in local political or social activities and rightly so given the history of interfererence and exploitation by the ten ton gorilla at the door up north.

The exacerbation of local corruption in undeveloped and lesser developed countries by imperialist powers seeking political and economic influence indirectly or through colonization is a world wide phenomenon and has been for centuries. Of course, the colonial era and period of the "white man´s burden" brought great progress in eradicating disease and building infrastructure but it was through a desire to exploit and evangelize rather than altruism. The whole colonial era succeeded (for a time) through the concerted effort by European powers to corrupt local tribal leaders with money and influence. As for "non-colonial" but imperialistic powers such as the United States, the use, exploitation and encouragement of local corruption in the LDCs in the Americas and Caribbean was disgraceful. Look at the U.S. de facto colonies of Cuba and Panama in the first half of the 20th century. The shameful use of the thug Noriega in Panama to facilitate the illegal war in Nicaragua to unseat a legitimately elected government and then the phony war to imprison the thug when he was no longer of use is a good example but only one of many. If the U.S. spent $10,000,000 surrepticiously in an unsuccessful effort to depose Noriega in an election in the 1980s and then invade Panama when they were unsuccessful then what is it doing today and where? The examples of American interference in the Americas goes on and on. Why wouldn´t Mexico and any other Latin American country mistrust the behemoth to the north and be suspicious of foreigners engaging in political activities within their borders?

Many do not remember this, but during the 19th Century, just before the Civil War in the U.S. there was a nascent movement in the U.S. (among the neocons of the day?) to invade Mexico "for its own good". The notion was that Mexico was incredibly rich in natural resources which were being squandered by the fact that, and I paraphrase, the nation was being mismanaged by a polyglot mixture of Spaniards, Indians and Africans. All Mexico needed to realize its wealth was the direct administration of the nation by Northern European stock from the United States. I believe that the U.S. Civil War helped to derail this movement but with a history like this is it any wonder Mexicans mistrust the U.S.and legally preclude participation in Mexican politics by foreign visitors ?

Otherwise; I have no opinion.

Note:
I am not that famliar with laws and regulations governing the political activites of foreigners in the United States whether legal or illegal although I am quite certain illegal immigrants are not granted any political privileges including the right to hold massive street protests. The Los Angeles demonstration by immigrants, whether legal or illegal, was an example of government inaction resulting from impotence. There was simply nothing to be done to stop 1,000,000 people from demonstrating in the streets so no action was taken to mitigate the event. This, more than anything else, demonstrates the efficacy of Mexico´s policy of not tolerating political activites by foreigners lest those activities get out of hand and tie the hands of authorities.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Sep 1, 2006, 10:35 AM)


Bubba

Sep 1, 2006, 8:49 AM

Post #24 of 48 (2905 views)

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Re: [tony] Topics on Mexico _ Which Mexico are you talkin about??

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Tony:

San Juan Chamula, Chiapas is an indigenous pueblo about 15 kilometers from San Cristobal de Las Casas famous for its church and market. It is a major tourist attraction. It is not a mellow place, the beggars have been there for more than 2 years. It is a very intolerant place totally controlled by the caciques that are all PRI and traditional catholics (a mixture of catholicism and pagan practices).

Over 10 years ago they expelled anyone who was not of the same religious persuasion and, as a result, a lot of the Chamulans went to live around San Cristobal forming the majority of what is known locally as the Belt of Poverty on the outskirts of SC. These people are considered refugees as they lost everything, land and houses, are desperately poor and now form the majority if the inhabitants of the barrios Palestina, Hormigas and Paraiso. Many of them are evangelistic christians and mostly vote PRD. The kids you see selling gum and candy in the streets and many vendors in the indigenous market are from the Belt of Poverty. The extreme poverty in these belts is a potential source of violence.

I am told locally that many of the children of San Juan Chamula do not go to school despite the subsidies the town receives to send them to school. The teachers are forced to sign off on their attendance with the threat of physical violence. The parents would rather send the children to the street to sell rather than going to school, many of them cannot read nor write and will tell you that these are useless skills. Some of them will tell you they can read and learned it from friends.

A couple of Chamulas who now live in San Cristobal tell me that evangelists and moslems are accepted in the pueblo but who knows.

There is a large amount of family violence due to alcoholism that goes unreported, I am getting that information from a nurse who works in one of the clinics in the area who wants to leave her job as she told me she could not stand the violence among the indigenous people any longer.

Do not be fooled, the tourists are only tolerated as they bring money but the area is not open to strangers from other villages, other towns or other cultures.

People going to Chamula or other indian villages should not give any money to the children. If you want to befriend them take rambutans or Lyche nuts, or any sweet fruit, crayola etc.. but no money please , it encourages the kids to beg and you will be swarmed mercilessly by them if you give them money.

If you want to walk to more remote areas of the pueblo ask at the municipal office and hire a kid to show you around. Do not strike out on your own without specific permission. You will learn a lot about the area and the culture if both of you speak Spanish.

Last week there was violence and at least one murder in Zinacantan between PRD and PRI. As a tourist you are only targeted for your money but in these election times you should use caution when going to the outer villages where there are less tourists as fights can erupt.

Rural Chiapas around San Cristobal can be visited and is fascinating but should be visited with caution and utmost respect for local customs.

Brigitte


(This post was edited by Bubba on Sep 1, 2006, 10:26 AM)


Tab


Sep 1, 2006, 10:28 AM

Post #25 of 48 (2866 views)

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Re: [Bud Crest] Topics on Mexico

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I DO appreciate every piece of information I get from this forum. While anyone planning to make a BIG move will do much research before they take the jump, this forum IS one of my main places for this research. And we can always count on a variety of opinions from this forum as opposed to what we may find through other avenues. So I say "thank you Bud" for this post. You can only get so much info NOB. We are heading down to Mazatlan and Rosario in 3 weeks. Could anyone tell me if anything is happening in those areas that we need to be aware of or worry about? Much thanks.
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