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arbon

Aug 30, 2006, 9:45 AM

Post #26 of 70 (3709 views)

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Re: [alex .] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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"When I need ONE egg or ONE tomato, I don't go to Costco".

Neither do I, they are just out side the back door, the egg in the hen house, and the tomato in the green house.

And just like in TJ, they are just next door to the cat house.

I better not stop there or I'll be in the dog house.
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caldwelld


Aug 30, 2006, 10:06 AM

Post #27 of 70 (3707 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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The idea that there is a lack of fairness in the market place is always a matter of perspective. From the perspective of a market economy, which Mexico is, less regulation over the movement of goods and services tends to make things fairer – cheaper, faster, better. Larger, more efficient, more innovative competitors have been putting others less able to keep up, out of business since the beginning of time. It is good for some and not so good for others - i.e. fair. There is little unique in the management techniques Wal-Mart or Wal-Mex bring to their businesses. What is unique is their ability to combine all of the best techniques ruthlessly and relentlessly and more successfully than most of their competitors. Some think the Wal-Marts will eventually go the way of the dodo bird but I am not so sure. The buying power the big retailers have with suppliers cannot be easily duplicated. That Fast Money prints an article like that is interesting indeed. It seems they have forgotten that the globalization they complain about in the article is exactly why they have the niche market they have.
dondon


arbon

Aug 30, 2006, 11:15 AM

Post #28 of 70 (3694 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Walmart is not competitive in Canada, when you consider the quality verses the cost, the majority of products at Walmart in Canada are items that are being discontinued, by the manufacturer.

and only a 30 day return policy.
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caldwelld


Aug 30, 2006, 1:31 PM

Post #29 of 70 (3661 views)

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Re: [arbon] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Nor in Germany where they have recently decided to close all their stores thus proving once again that each market has its own idiosincracities.
dondon


JohnnyBoy

Aug 30, 2006, 1:47 PM

Post #30 of 70 (3653 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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My Mexican partner and his family, all of whom live in Hermosillo, Sonora, and are all of the Mexican middle-class (mostly medical professionals) tell me that for them, shopping at Wal-Mart and Costco there is comparable to me shopping here at Nordstoms and Andronicos (a very upscale grocery store chain in the California Bay Area).

Furthermore, he reports, Wal-Mart, Costco, Sears, Home Depot and the like are all considered places for the upper-middle class to shop in Mexico. They are all too expensive for the average middle-class Mexican.

Nevertheless, they (my Mexican people) go to Costco and splurge on the occasional slice of pizza or go to Wal-Mart to gawk at the electrical appliances, trying to imagination why anyone would possibly need or want a salad shooter or a vegetable steamer. They also go to watch the behavior of the ones who actually make purchases there and their gestures/body language signaling their superiority at that moment in time.

I doubt Wal-Mart in Mexico is the same as Wal-Mart in the USA. They are not going to put many little mom-n-pop places out of business in Mexico by undercutting them, because Wal-Mart (and other such places) are actually expensive by Mexican standards and the poor will not be able to shop there.

Do any of you agree? I am not looking to be right or wrong in this matter, only to gauge how accurate my Mexican friends are in their estimation of Wal-Mart and such businesses.

jb


esperanza

Aug 30, 2006, 1:54 PM

Post #31 of 70 (3648 views)

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Re: [JohnBleazard] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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I agree wholeheartedly. Please look upthread for my other posts on this topic; I've said the same thing several times.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









caldwelld


Aug 30, 2006, 3:04 PM

Post #32 of 70 (3632 views)

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Re: [JohnBleazard] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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I, for one, do not understand your Mexican people’s comment. I cannot speak to Costco as I do not shop there but my friends that do claim to be saving money over similar purchases from WalMart and the like. But as far as Wal-Mart goes its main competitor in this part of central Mexico is Comercial Mexicana. Indeed one sees posted in both stores comparable prices in the other with each one claiming to be below the other for selected items.

Comercial Mexicana is on approximately the same competitive level as Gigante and Soriana. All four stores are large retail discount box stores selling the same range of products as found in WalMart NOB. Indeed the three original Mx retailers actually got together to challenge WalMart Mex both legally and commercially for their agressive commercial practices, (although it backfired but that is another story). In the stores I shop at in Queretero, Celaya, and Delores it is easy to see that Mexicans outnumber Gringos by at least 100 to 1.

Admittedly these box stores cater to people with transport, so that puts them in a certain socio-economic bracket I suppose but bear in mind that it is a relatively rare family in Mx nowadays that does not at least have access to a car. To say these stores (WalMex included) are upscale is just plain wrong. Furthermore I defy anyone around my part of the country to find produce any cheaper, (or better for that matter), than carried by these stores. The small tienda is doomed in the future to serve the convenience market and those that have no transport, not those looking for a bargain.
WalMart Mexico incidentally is the largest retailer in Mexico since entering around a dozen years ago and is also Mexico’s largest employer. Unfair? Doubt it.
dondon


Rolly


Aug 30, 2006, 4:03 PM

Post #33 of 70 (3617 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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"it is a relatively rare family in Mx nowadays that does not at least have access to a car." I assume you mean via a taxi. Automobile ownership, even in the prosperous north where I live, is still quite low.

Rolly Pirate


caldwelld


Aug 30, 2006, 4:37 PM

Post #34 of 70 (3610 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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What I mean is by taxi or thru the good will of a brother or an uncle or a neighbor etc. And here we are talking maybe only once a month or once every 2 weeks.
dondon


sfmacaws


Aug 30, 2006, 5:19 PM

Post #35 of 70 (3593 views)

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Re: [JohnBleazard] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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First, I travel all over the US and Mexico and I go to WalMart's in both countries. I have never noticed a difference in prices within a country. I do notice a difference in products, they are tailored to the area. For instance, I saw hunter's duck blinds for sale in a WalMart in Montana, never saw those in Arizona. If I find the same plastic box at one WalMart in the US, it will be the same price at another WalMart. Just subjective info.

In Mexico, I don't agree that the big box stores are only for the upper middle class as John's friend states. Middle class professionals (he says they are all in the medical profession) vs upper middle class professionals is a small margin of change in Mexico. The big difference is between the rural poor and the urban middle class. In a way even the urban poor buy from the box stores because when they go to the corner tienda to buy a small bolsa of oil, the can that oil originally came in was bought at a box store, usually by the store owner. Even in the tourist areas in QRoo, most of the customers in a box store are going to be Mexican. Tourists don't do as much grocery shopping as locals. In Playa del Carmen I have seen the largest concentration of foreigners in the box stores and still they are only about 25% of the customers.

So, it seems odd to me that John's friend who lives in an urban area and whose family has good jobs would consider places like WalMart or Home Depot or Sear's to be out of their range. Even Costco which has the upfront cost of membership before you can shop there, appears to be doing good business and to be full of middle class Mexicans wherever it is across the Republic. In many small towns, people go in together for membership and for rides to these stores. They may not shop there daily but they make a list and go when they can buy large quantities for themselves, their neighbors and friends.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




nfabq

Aug 30, 2006, 9:42 PM

Post #36 of 70 (3559 views)

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Re: [RexC] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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You called me a liar, RexC, and I was so pissed off I needed time to calm down before putting you back in your big box. I'm still pissed,but here you go:

The example you give of my"fable" relates to empty stores,but not only do you present your feeling about what US courts might rule as your only "evidence",you do so by quoting me as saying something I didn't say. Now, I can only figure 2 reasons for this happening:1) you can't read and understand very well or 2) you were building a straw man that you can then knock down. I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and figure you just don't read and understand very well. Please get someone to read my original statement to you who can then explain it,so we don't have any more misunderstandings. You may be interested in learning that the Chicago City Council, in rejecting a Walmart application to build a store on 6-10-2004,found that there were,at that time, 371 former Walmart stores standing vacant in the US.

You have no idea of what I know or don't know about Mexico, its way of life or its people or its economy. Now, I'll admit I could know more about investing in Mexico since I lost money on Comercial Mexicana way back when it was an upper priced women's clothing store(did you know that?),before it was taken over by another business and became a supermarket. Heck, I even lost money on my investment in Telemex. On the other hand, I got my savings out of Mexico 1 week before Echeverria's peso devaluation ( do you know anything about that?).

In a previous post I spoke of my Mexican "friends" who live in Irapuato,I should have told you then they are my Mexican "family"--have been for more than 12 years. There are 8 brothers and 4 sisters,most of whom have kids of their own.So, you see, I have a good sized family,some middle class,some poor and all but one from the worker class. The one is an officer in the army.

Now, your remaining point is about worker abuse and your wife's aunt. I'm truly sorry about what happened to her,it shouldn' t happen to any one anywhere. If you think worker abuse doesn't happen in the US you haven't been keeping up with US news either. You're right, I don't know of Walmart not paying social security taxes to the government,they'd be fools if they did that. But now that the government is getting interested in all the non-documented immigrants they hire,do you want to bet it wont be too long before we do hear about Walmart not paying all the social security taxes they owe for these people who never had a voice to complain with? Of course,this is not the only way workers can be abused and Walmart has a list of other ways. Try these on for size:
1)A sex discrimination class action suit by more than 1and1/2 million women who are either current or former employees,the largest class action suit ever filed.
2)A class action suit is pending approval that sues Walmart for forcing employees to work overtime and not paying them for it.
3)Walmart uses all possible ways to prevent their employees from forming a union. When butchers in one of their stores managed to form a union, Walmart closed the butcher shops in ALL of their US stores.

Now, I know you are all interested in verifying the above so let me give you some references:
1- google "class action suits against Wal-Mart"
2-see Esperanza's post to Jerry Ajijicfor Harpers and another magazine whose name I forgot.
3- Mother Jones Magazine, March/April, 2003

One correction I need to make to my original post: The number of jobs Walmart destroys for every one it creates should have read 1.5,a senior moment and I left out the decimal point.

Now,I know you have been a lifetime union member,RexC,but I'll bet your job required it and it wasn't of your own volition. Of course,with some union members who needs to hire scabs?

If I am only for myself, who am I?
Norm


mparrino

Aug 31, 2006, 7:38 AM

Post #37 of 70 (3519 views)

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Re: [JohnBleazard] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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I had a similar experience with my family in Patzcuaro. They had all heard stories of the great deals at Costco, so I took them all there and their faces absolutely dropped when they saw the prices. They simply wouldn't let me buy them anything there, claiming they didn't need such fancy toilet paper or shampoo....
Marcia


alex .

Aug 31, 2006, 9:13 AM

Post #38 of 70 (3497 views)

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Re: [mparrino] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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I found the Comercial Mexicana in Zihuatanejo to be more expensive than the Safeway (Vons) store in Newport Beach. I'll shop in the Centro next time.
Alex


caldwelld


Aug 31, 2006, 5:45 PM

Post #39 of 70 (3454 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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For those who love ot bash WalMart and even more for those who think they are simply taking advantage of a commercial opportunty you might find the following link informative: http://video.google.com/...vshow%3ACharlie_Rose

You will need high speed to get it.
dondon


Moisheh

Sep 2, 2006, 4:14 PM

Post #40 of 70 (3367 views)

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Re: [JohnBleazard] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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John Bleazard: I live in Kino and shop at all the big box stores in Hermosillo. Your relatives must be blind. Wal Mart has lots of shoppers from every economic class. Lots of them are from poorer barrios. To the left of left posters: I remember Sonora before the big box stores: Ley's with rotten meat, mouldy bread and week old vegetables. Filthy stores, rude clerks, no return policy and high prices. But that has changed since Wal Mart arrived. Ley's and the others now have cleaner stores, better prices and decent products. I say hurray for The Waltons!

Moisheh


bournemouth

Sep 2, 2006, 4:37 PM

Post #41 of 70 (3355 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Moiseh - I remember the poor Ley's too, in Guaymas. The big catalyst for change there was Soriana arriving - Ley's had to clean up their act.


Bubba

Sep 2, 2006, 4:52 PM

Post #42 of 70 (3351 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Good point, Moisheh:

Whatever one thinks of WalMart they sure forced the big box Mexican chains to get their acts together. They caused the managements of those stores to improve their purchasing (by forming buying co-ops) and inventory management and made them all the better for it.

I remember last year when we were in Akumal and shopped in Playa del Carmen at Chedraui and Tulum at the smaller St. Francis supermarket, neither of which had any serious big store competition at that time. Both markets, especially the Tulum place, displayed disgusting rotten vegetables without shame. I mean rotten. And to think we used to make fun of Safeway in California for discarding produce so quickly. Since we were on the Caribbean we thought we would feast on fish. HA! The fish at Chedraui had not seen the sea since Cortez landed. Absolutely no shame. A WalMart there (there may be one by now) would eat their shorts.

Actually, we never found a single decent fishmonger on the Caribbean coast between Playa and Tulum. I understand fish is not a favorite thing to eat among the locals except for shellfish.

Now that we have bought a home in San Cristobal, we went to check out Chedraui there (the only box store with no supermarket competition ) and their inventory was pathetic and service lathargic at best . We will do most of our serious shopping in Tuxtla Gutierrez and local markets including the indigenous market. We know for a fact the chickens are fresh at the indigenous market because they are still running around in circles when you buy them.

I cannot bring myself to buy such things as chicken in these box stores such as Soriana and Chedraui with their extensive shelves of chickens on display. I figure if they have so little pride they will leave rotting fish and vegetables on the shelf until they become putrid, God knows how long that chicken has been there since they cannot be depended on to throw it away when it´s over the hill.

WalMex has been a godsend in Mexico in terms of forcing the other box stores to get it together and lower prices.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Sep 2, 2006, 4:56 PM)


Moisheh

Sep 2, 2006, 6:21 PM

Post #43 of 70 (3328 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Bubba: We were in San Cristobal 2 years ago and noted the lack of a decent super. The only one we could find was across from the market and it was horrible. Actually a lot of the stores there gave bad service. A good story: We were staying in a campground. Took a taxi to a laundromat downtown. At first I was impresed. Very modern equipment including fancy Hoebsch dryers. I wear nothing but T shirts and they never go in the dryer. I ask the gal if she could hang up my t shirts. Sorry no hangers. OK Can you put them in the dryer on fluff. Cannot do as it would use too much electricity. OK how about you just pull them out of the washer and put them in a bag. Cannot do because our service is wash and dry NOT just wash!!!! My wife stayed and pulled them out of the washer while the rest of us went and drank beer!!

Moisheh


Bubba

Sep 2, 2006, 6:47 PM

Post #44 of 70 (3315 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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For the price of that beer you could have had someone press all of your clothes. I am there every month and I have no problems getting my clothes washed , dried and pressed. Ladies go around the houses asking if you have laundry to wash and they are willing to press as well. Last week I forgot to pick up the laundry and the lady came by my house to deliver it as she was afraid I would leave without being able to pick it .
As far as food I have found the food there more interresting than in many other cities.
Did you try Teopisca on the periferico? Great lard tostadas with fresh cream, beans cooked with pork skins, cecina and all types of sausages, it is delicious you just have to pop a Lipitor pill after dinner just in case.
The Italian restaurants have great pizzas and fresh pastas, good crepes at Namandi and la Creperie , decent vegetarian food, and good food in all types of holes in the wall.
Brigitte


nfabq

Sep 2, 2006, 6:55 PM

Post #45 of 70 (3312 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Bob,I never thought you'd "descend to the level of pollyana". Your own post,as well as others,points out that it's the competition,whoever it may be,not WalMart that causes the chains to improve their way of doing business. The attorney general of Puerto Rico had to successfully sue WalMart recently to force them to regurgitate a local chain they had swallowed. Any bets on how long it will take WalMart to start swallowing local chains and stores in Mexico? What would you expect to happen to their quality when they don't have competition?

Norm


sfmacaws


Sep 2, 2006, 7:26 PM

Post #46 of 70 (3300 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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This winter when we were in San Cris there was a brand new shopping center with big box grocery store right across the street from the Hotel Bonampak which has an RV park that we stay in. Is that the Chedraui you're talking about Bubba? I don't remember which store it was but I didn't think it was Chedraui. As I recall it had pretty decent stuff, a big improvement over previous years and shopping at the mercado. There are things - like fresh vegetables - that I like to buy in the mercados but stuff like milk, TP, all dairy and deli meats, I'd rather buy at a box store with refrigeration.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Ron Pickering W3FJW


Sep 2, 2006, 7:37 PM

Post #47 of 70 (3296 views)

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Re: [nfabq] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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In Reply To
Bob,I never thought you'd "descend to the level of pollyana". Your own post,as well as others,points out that it's the competition,whoever it may be,not WalMart that causes the chains to improve their way of doing business. The attorney general of Puerto Rico had to successfully sue WalMart recently to force them to regurgitate a local chain they had swallowed. Any bets on how long it will take WalMart to start swallowing local chains and stores in Mexico? What would you expect to happen to their quality when they don't have competition?

Norm

I doubt highly that it will change for the worse. They do have a reputation to live up to such as it is. News travels.......
Getting older and still not down here.


nfabq

Sep 2, 2006, 8:03 PM

Post #48 of 70 (3289 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Isn't that what you would have said about the local chains? Wont the laws of monopoly come into play here too? And won't restraint of trade happen in Mexico as in Puerto Rico?

Norm


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Sep 2, 2006, 8:22 PM

Post #49 of 70 (3278 views)

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Re: [nfabq] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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I can't speak to Puerto Rico, and also not much to Mexico. I base my comment upon the fact that a business has to have some creditability to survive in the market place. I'm also sure Walmart has more creditability than than the businesses only located in Mexico large though they may be. They will have to change their ways if Walmart gains a foothold. I don't say this because I am a Walmart booster, just using a bit of common sense. I see no signs of monopoly unless the current chains are getting together and fixing prices which I doubt, and I doubt Walmart will be able to swallow them up and/or drive them out of business amd be a monopoly in the next 50 or so years. Just MHO.
Getting older and still not down here.


sfmacaws


Sep 2, 2006, 8:25 PM

Post #50 of 70 (3277 views)

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Re: [nfabq] Something to watch, Bank of Wal-Mex

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Norm, it's clear no one is going to convince you that Wal-Mex or Wal-Mart are not spawn of the devil. It's also clear that many of us don't agree and don't see it playing out that way in Mexico. However it ends up, it is not something any of us can change as it is completely up to the citizens and government of Mexico. As it stands now, the citizens of Mexico are voting with their pesos in favor of Wal-Mex along with its other stores. They like them, they are always jammed and as others have mentioned the competition and more modern distribution have improved the availability of goods wherever they open. So far, so good. Predictions of doom are just that, predictions. Ni modo.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán


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