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talosian

May 5, 2006, 4:02 PM

Post #1 of 19 (5917 views)

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Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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I'm wondering how popular a back-up generator is here?

I just got one at Costco and built a little "house" for it to dampen the sound. I'm running a couple of semi-permanent connectons into the house and will be able to run about 3,000KW as needed.

I remember a couple of times when the electric went out for several hours in 1994 and a few times for a couple of hours after that.

Did I waste my pesos?

Thanks.
"When all logical explanations have failed, we must look to the illogical for the answer.

NEOhio1

May 5, 2006, 4:54 PM

Post #2 of 19 (5901 views)

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Re: [talosian] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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Pretty much depends on how afraid you are of the dark.

pat

May 5, 2006, 5:29 PM

Post #3 of 19 (5891 views)

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Re: [talosian] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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Talosian, I'm no electrician, but if I remember correctly, I've read that if you put power into your house circuits, you need a method of isolating your house circuit from the grid.. Supposedly, this keeps you from zapping any workman who might be working to restore power to the grid.

Don't know if this is true or not, but I always think of this when i hear of someone setting up a generator as a backup for their home system. What do you think?

talosian

May 5, 2006, 5:48 PM

Post #4 of 19 (5887 views)

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Re: [pat] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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I believe you are quite correct. I am setting up a completely independent circuit in the house with separate recepticals for the generated power.

I'm not afraid of the dark but do have a freezer. Plus, having lived w/o electricity for more than 10 days right after (Northridge) earthquake in 1994, makes me appreciate its value. Same for just having gone w/o phone service for 9-days here. Yes, I know, the phones run on the power from the phone lines and not the electric lines but it did show me how long it can take for any service to come back.
"When all logical explanations have failed, we must look to the illogical for the answer.

Jean

May 5, 2006, 6:03 PM

Post #5 of 19 (5882 views)

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Re: [talosian] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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I remember a couple of times when the electric went out for several hours in 1994 and a few times for a couple of hours after that.

A couple??? During the rainy season I've seen in on a weekly basis :) At least you have your phone line back LOL.

Jean
Retirement Communities
http://www.retirecommunities.com

johanson

May 5, 2006, 7:03 PM

Post #6 of 19 (5866 views)

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Re: [talosian] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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Do you need a generator. Most will say good gracious no. But I have one and have been thankful twice in the last three months when the power was down for once 10 hours and another time 15 hours this spring, when I was able to start the sucker up and save what was in my freezer.

It was also nice to continue to watch my favorite movie after the power went out.

Do you really need it? Not very often, but you will be happy you have it the next time there is a power outage.

arbon

May 5, 2006, 8:08 PM

Post #7 of 19 (5848 views)

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Re: [talosian] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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I now think of lawyers in a new light, since I have been reading that which talosian generates.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Papirex

May 6, 2006, 7:29 AM

Post #8 of 19 (5802 views)

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Re: [talosian] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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What you need, and what they are called is an isolation switch. They are an automatic switch that is activated by an electric solenoid that is energized when your backup generator starts; it disconnects, or isolates your house from the power grid. When power is restored, it re-connects the house to the power grid, and isolates the generator from the house wiring before shutting down the generator if another solenoid-activated switch has been used for that purpose on the generator start circuit.

Using an isolation switch will eliminate the need for the separate circuits powered only by the generator, which will require you to manually disconnect your freezer, etc. from the original house wiring outlets and reconnecting them to the generator circuits each time there is a power failure. If your generator has an automatic starter on it, using an isolation switch will insure that the switch to backup power will occur even if you are not at home when the power fails.

If you don’t have an isolation switch you will be providing some of your neighbors with low electrical power, and you will have lower power than you want too. The seriousness of your power loss depends on the size of the generator installed. You might also electrocute a lineman working to restore the power to your area.

Backup generators are not uncommon in Alaska. If the power goes out in the winter the home’s heating system will not be functioning. If power is not restored within 24 hours, you must turn off the water supply to the house and begin draining all the water in the pipes, water heater, heating boiler if present, etc. If you don’t drain everything or provide an alternate method of heating the house, the water pipes, water heater, etc. will start to burst when they freeze.

The further north you are, or if you live in a rural area, the more useful a backup generator is. Thanks to the money grubbing environmental organizations, there is no statewide power grid in Alaska, if the power goes out in a town or village in one of those areas, the more likely that you are on your own until power is finally restored.

Because there are so many homes with backup generators, the power companies run prominent ads every fall advising anyone that has a generator in their home to be sure that they have an isolation switch installed. They remind everyone that it is illegal up there to install a backup generator without an isolation switch. They are trying to protect their workers.

There is a high legal liability for the owner if a backup generator is installed without an isolation switch. No licensed electrician or licensed electrical contractor will install a backup generator without an isolation switch.

The do-it-yourself guys without adequate technical knowledge are the dangerous people to watch out for. (That sounds like a good description for the average self-taught electrician in Mexico.)

Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

Howard Botz

May 6, 2006, 7:50 AM

Post #9 of 19 (5794 views)

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Re: [RexC] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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I suppose it depends on where you live. I live in upper Ajijic and my power only goes out for a few seconds at most (just enough to make me reset the clock). During the past two years I can only remember 2-3 times it may have been out for 15-20 minutes.

Howard in Ajijic

Papirex

May 6, 2006, 8:34 AM

Post #10 of 19 (5787 views)

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Re: [Howard Botz] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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I think you are right Howard; it does depend on where you live. Here in Cuernavaca, Power outages are sometimes very frequent. The power may be OK for many months, and then we go through a period like we have been having for the last few months when the power fails once or twice per month.

Often the power is off for 4 to 8 hours during an outage. It happens often enough that we keep a supply of candles, a propane fueled Coleman lantern, and a battery-powered radio handy at all times. Since cordless phones do not work with no power, I keep two wired phones connected, I learned to do that when living in Alaska.

The local power company, Luz y Fuerza, doesn’t respond too quickly when there is a power outage. If it is a serious problem, they always call out crews based in the town of Tres Marias, rather than crews based locally. That is time consuming too.

About one month ago there was a structural fire in a Tortillaria a block from our house. The fire destroyed the power lines on the pole beside the building and everyone on our street lost power. It took about four hours before the repair crew arrived from Tres Marias. It took them all night to restore power to half of our house. Fortunately, the circuits serving the refrigerator and the freezer were energized then.

It took another 24 hours before power was fully restored to the whole house. We have two electric meters. Of course, my computer office, and our bedroom were two of the rooms with no power for two days.

Since we are leasing our home I do not plan to install a backup generator. Even after we buy a home, I don’t plan to install one. In this climate it is more of an inconvenience when the power fails rather than an emergency. As long as we don’t open the freezer or the refrigerator doors often, we just ride it out, no biggie.

Rex

"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

slats

May 6, 2006, 8:46 AM

Post #11 of 19 (5781 views)

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Re: [talosian] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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In Reply To

I believe you are quite correct. I am setting up a completely independent circuit in the house with separate recepticals for the generated power.

Don't the homes in Mexico have a main breaker?

Open main breaker, start generator. When power's restored, turn off generator, close main breaker back in. That's how I do it here, NOB.

talosian

May 6, 2006, 8:50 AM

Post #12 of 19 (5778 views)

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Re: [RexC] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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I live in Vista del Lago. I will check on the isolation switch but may need it form the states. My generator is not automatic start but I could pull the main breaker at my front wall which is where the power comes to the house. This should effectively isolate my entire house from the grid. I think then I would only need to check occasionally to see when the power from CFE returns (after turning off the generator).

Thanks.
"When all logical explanations have failed, we must look to the illogical for the answer.

Rolly / Moderator

May 6, 2006, 8:52 AM

Post #13 of 19 (5778 views)

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Re: [slats] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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Homes in Mexico may or may not have a main breaker. I have seen some with no breakers or fuses at all. Main switches with cartridge fuses are common on older homes, but often the fuse holder has been jumped. Sometimes the jumper bypasses the switch also. Home electrical wiring in Mexico is often a chamber of horrors.

Rolly Pirate

bournemouth

May 6, 2006, 9:02 AM

Post #14 of 19 (5773 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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"Home electrical wiring in Mexico is often a chamber of horrors"
____________________________________________________________

Rolly - you never spoke truer words! We are having our casita rewired, for good and valid reasons, plus extra meters put in. An electrician friend from NOB is visiting us and he walks around shaking his head, in shock and horror.

talosian

May 6, 2006, 9:25 AM

Post #15 of 19 (5767 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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In my case, I did check and found a cartridge fuse main breaker between the pole and the input to the house breaker. My house is about 6 years old.
"When all logical explanations have failed, we must look to the illogical for the answer.

Papirex

May 6, 2006, 11:43 AM

Post #16 of 19 (5756 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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Rolly is right about the horrors of the wiring in some homes in Mexico. If all the circuits in a house are protected by breakers, the fuses at the main disconnect switch for the house are superfluous and unneeded. They are sometimes even a problem. The “electricians” here also have a bad habit of fusing the neutral wire. That should never be done.

Fuses for the main electrical service are never used in The US, just a main disconnect switch at the service entrance. The breakers on every circuit protect the house wiring.

The fuses used in Mexico have a replaceable element inside them. If a fuse blows, you can simply replace the fuse element, instead of the whole fuse. The problem is that sometimes the end of the element, where it contacts the metal end of the fuse will become burned, just like the electrical contacts in any switch will sometimes do.

We lived in one house where the voltage was constantly fluctuating. Sometimes the TV would just drop out, and the UPS for my computer was intermittently coming on and off. I checked the voltage many times, and it was constantly fluctuating between 80 and 130 volts within a few minutes.

I called the electric company, they sent a man out to our house and he said the problem was not theirs, he recommended that I hire an electrician to check the house wiring. I am a retired process control instrument technician and I know electricity pretty well.

I figured, hell, if the problem is in the house wiring, I can fix it myself. After a few weeks of trying to analyze the problem and finding no faults in the house I finally gave up. I hired an electrician. After checking everything in the house that I had already checked, he checked the Main entrance fuses.

When he told me that the problem was with the fuses, I thought he was crazy and I had made a mistake hiring him. Where I come from a fuse is either good, or it is blown. Not here. When he realized I didn’t believe him, he unscrewed one of the metal end caps on the fuses. Sure enough the interior replaceable elements were burned where they contacted the metal end caps of the fuse. That’s when I learned how fuses are made in Mexico.

He didn’t have the right sized replacement elements with him, so he cleaned the ends of the elements a little bit with a knife blade. That helped, but it didn’t cure the problem. The voltage fluctuation did not go as low as before he did that. I had to buy new elements the next day. I thought the problem was cured. It wasn’t.

I still had some voltage fluctuations. Not as severe as before, but noticeable. I called the electrician back. He discovered a second set of main fuses inline with the first set in a box on the wall beside our driveway. The second set of fuses was repetitious and totally unnecessary.

Rather than jumpering those fuses and taking them out of the circuit, I took the easy way out and replaced the elements in them too. We knew we were moving.

There are many wiring surprises in Mexico. Unless you or a friend have enough knowledge to know that an electrician is qualified, do not believe a thing they tell you. When I asked one of them about grounding some outlets, he told me, “Oh, we don’t do that in Mexico, it isn’t necessary.” When I asked him about the wall outlets with a built in breaker with a reset button on them, that will trip if a short circuit is detected, He said “We don’t use them here either, they don’t work.” Of course they won’t work if there is no ground wire.

For anyone thinking of moving here and buying a house, there are some pretty good books dealing with do-it-yourself wiring and plumbing available. One place to buy them is at Home Depot. I recommend buying copies of both. They sell those books at Home Depot here in Cuernavaca, but I have never looked at them here to see if they are in English or Spanish.

Rex

"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

(This post was edited by RexC on May 6, 2006, 11:47 AM)

Papirex

May 6, 2006, 12:23 PM

Post #17 of 19 (5749 views)

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Re: [slats] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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Slats, the method you describe will work, and is safe for you as long as you own the house. What makes it unsafe and puts you in violation of the National Electrical code if you live in The US is that there is no guarantee that the 2nd, 3rd. or 4th owner of the house will know how to manually disconnect the house from the power grid.

It is highly unlikely that a real estate agent 20, or 30, or 40 years from now will be knowledgeable enough regarding the dangers to advise a new owner about the procedure to isolate the house from the power grid before the generator is started. You will probably be long gone by that time, at least as the owner of the house.

In most states you probably won’t be allowed to sell your house until the generator installation meets the code requirements, or is removed. The only basis for enforcing any building code, plumbing, electrical, structural, heating, etc. is on the grounds of Public health or public safety. Esthetics, cost or convenience don’t count and are not enforceable in any court. Only the grounds of public health and safety will stand up to a legal challenge.

The installation of a backup generator is a public safety issue because you will not occupy that house forever. There is also the possibility that in case of a home fire, your insurance company may also raise the issue of the improperly installed generator.

Some of the various building code requirements may seem unnecessary to many people. That is because the reasons for many of them are somewhat obscure to the untrained layman.

Rex

"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

Judy in Ags

May 6, 2006, 4:41 PM

Post #18 of 19 (5720 views)

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Re: [talosian] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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It probably depends on how often the electricity goes off where you are. We tried to discourage my brother-in-law from bringing a large one here to Aguascalientes, but he insisted. Now he's sorry he wasted his money. The electricity hardly ever goes off here and when it does it's just for a few minutes. With all the storms we experienced in Kansas City, the electricity went off rather frequently and some times for an extended period of time (bad ice storms, etc.)

We brought a smaller one which we use some before we got electricity to our construction site. Since we got electricity to the site, we've never used it since.

talosian

May 6, 2006, 4:50 PM

Post #19 of 19 (5717 views)

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Re: [Judy in Ags] Back up power supply. Did I waste my pesos?

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I think this is one of those situations that if and until you really need one, it might seem like a waste of money. But if it happens and power is out for a couple of days (or longer) then it will be well worth the investment. I'm figuring it as insurance.
"When all logical explanations have failed, we must look to the illogical for the answer.