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sfmacaws

Apr 19, 2006, 1:48 AM

Post #1 of 25 (2903 views)

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Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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Article from El Universal (english) tells of riot in town in Edo de Mexico after such a shooting.

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/miami/17844.html

Guess those illegal Guatemalans and El Salvadorans don't have any rights in Mexico, except the right to be shot or just robbed by the Migra and the police. And, talk about profiling! They shot this Mexican man because he was dark skinned and dressed in construction worker clothes, that made him an illegal immigrant.

Maybe they should have a protest march, think it would catch on across Mexico? Maybe they should decide that Mexico doesn't need any borders and just let any central american that wants to head north come on in through Mexico, stay as long as they like and work if they want to. Really, it's only fair. Perhaps US employers could set up info stations on Mexico's southern borders giving out kits on how to sneak into Mexico. After all, the central americans will work cheaper than the Mexicans and the Mexican workers won't care.

There are a lot of pots calling kettles names in this mess and a whole lot of hypocrisy floating around.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Bubba

Apr 19, 2006, 7:05 AM

Post #2 of 25 (2853 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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For those of you who get Starchoice, there is a documentary movie which covers the issue of Central American illegal immigration into and through Mexico. Every night, freight trains brimming with illegal immigrants leave Tapachula, Chiapas for El Norte. There is much violence at the Mexico/Guatemala border on both sides and in southern Mexican states associated with this historic social movement. The movie is named Wetback. I commend it to you. Another movie about Honduran illegal immigrants to the U.S. is worth looking for as well. The movie is called El Norte and it documents the trials and tribulations of Honduran campesinos who make their way to the U.S. simply to survive. The movie is instructive as it shows people completely unaware of the monetary economy and standing around a toilet watching in amazement as the "pee pee" simply disappears.

One way to look at the violence committed against Central Americans who illegally enter Mexico is that the Mexicans are performing a service for their jingo friends in the United States by heading off these desperate people who might otherwise end up cleaning bathrooms at WalMart in Yuma at 3:00AM - jobs which should be filled by the countless Americans clamoring for them.. And, despite the terrible violence committed against dark skinned Central Americans by some racist Mexican authorities, they keep coming and will keep coming as long as Central American countries provide no financial hope for their poor.

We Americans have been unbelievably hypocritical exploiting our fellow (Latin) Americans for the sake of lining the pockets of the Walton billionaires and their ilk while making sure that that cheap chicken we buy at WalMart is processed on the enslaved backs of those people risking their lives riding that train up from Tapachula.

Is anyone willing to suggest that the U.S. emulate Mexico in its treatment of illegals?

Actually, Jonna, the idea that U.S. employers set up booths at the Mexico/Guatemala border has merit. If dirt poor Honduran peasants already know of El Norte where the streets are paved with gold, those booths are now there in spirit. Take advantage of it.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Apr 19, 2006, 7:58 AM)

alex .

Apr 19, 2006, 8:21 AM

Post #3 of 25 (2817 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] pots n kettles

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Yea, I didn't want to mention this in the related threads since I don't know what the official immigration policy is. The policy appears to be: throw them in the back of a pickup at gun point and haul their butts back to Guatemala, no hearing, no trial, no nuthin. Its probably worded more eloquently though. There is a misconception that all immigrants, legal and otherwise, aspire to come to pick lettuce and clean our hotel rooms. The illegals, and future illegals, that I know personally have other plans.
Alex

(This post was edited by alex . on Apr 19, 2006, 8:23 AM)

talosian

Apr 19, 2006, 3:45 PM

Post #4 of 25 (2750 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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El Norte is an excellent 1983 movie with English subtitles. I saw it when it came out and wondered if there really were people so unfamiliar with "modern" things such as washing machines, etc. There are some funny parts but it's mostly serious and with some very sad and telling moments. If anyone wants one you may be able to find it on eBay, Amazon.com or for download at www.mininova.org or www.isohunt.com

Highly recommended.
"When all logical explanations have failed, we must look to the illogical for the answer.

Bubba

Apr 19, 2006, 5:52 PM

Post #5 of 25 (2721 views)

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Re: [talosian] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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You know something, Jonna , you are my all time favorite Republican wierdo.

Texwheel

Apr 20, 2006, 1:12 PM

Post #6 of 25 (2627 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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I have been off this forum for a few months, mainly because my devotion to taking care of my 92-year old Mom trumps any possibility of moving to Mexico anytime soon...she will live to be 100!

With all the recent protests in the US by Mexicans, I'm beginning to wonder why we (the US) treat them so well, and we (as potential ex-pats in Mexico) are treated like crap, when we bring so much into Mexico in the way of cash and spending power, an aid to their economy. Ergo: They can speak their mind in the US. We can't in Mexico.

Am I off base? If so, or not, unload on me.

Take care. Tom.
Tom Williams
Georgetown, Texas
Texwheel@aol.com

Rolly

Apr 20, 2006, 1:18 PM

Post #7 of 25 (2625 views)

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Re: [Texwheel] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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I have never felt like I was being treated badly in Mexico. Mexico has immigration rules that it has tried (pretty successfully) to enforce. The USA has rules that they have not made much of a effort to enforce in the past, and so now the problem is so out of hand that it may not have a solution.

Mexico has done it right; the USA has not.

Rolly Pirate

bournemouth

Apr 20, 2006, 1:24 PM

Post #8 of 25 (2619 views)

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Re: [Texwheel] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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Tom - what has made you think we are treated like "crap" as you put it? Spending power isn't everything. Every country has its laws, rules and regulations. The fact that the US supports free speech by everyone and Mexico does not simply means that these countries do things differently. Just because things are different does not mean they are wrong, just different.

Texwheel

Apr 20, 2006, 1:26 PM

Post #9 of 25 (2618 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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Rolly,

I don't want to appear judgemental. I respect your opinion. I respect any human's desire to have a better life. My God, any human should have the right to have the best life he/she can have. But the "flood" has to be stopped somehow. How?
Tom Williams
Georgetown, Texas
Texwheel@aol.com

Texwheel

Apr 20, 2006, 1:33 PM

Post #10 of 25 (2611 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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Excellent point, bournemouth. Maybe I should not move to Mexico if I want the same civil rights I have in the US. And maybe that is at least one reason why so many Mexicans want to move to the US! They actually want guaranteed civil rights. What a concept!!!!
Tom Williams
Georgetown, Texas
Texwheel@aol.com

Texwheel

Apr 20, 2006, 1:58 PM

Post #11 of 25 (2605 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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But Rolly,

The flood of Mexicans trying to get into the US doesn't compare to the few moneyed and retired Americans wanting to retire to Mexico! There is not even a comparison! The Mexicans want a better life...and who can fault them? But with the new anti-terrorism rules, how can that flood be allowed? It must be stopped.

I am white. But I am a "folk". I love all people. And I have experienced what Churchill described as one of the greatest thrills in life: To know that I have been shot at, and missed! Thank God!
Tom Williams
Georgetown, Texas
Texwheel@aol.com

bournemouth

Apr 20, 2006, 3:10 PM

Post #12 of 25 (2592 views)

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Re: [Texwheel] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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Tom - the ones I know move to the States because they cannot make enough money in Mexico to support their family, acquire land, build a home etc. Their rights do not come into the equation.

Bubba

Apr 20, 2006, 4:47 PM

Post #13 of 25 (2568 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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bournemouth expressed my views in a more civil manner than I and, thus, was not deleted. I know several Mexicans who work illegally in the United States and I don´t know even one who wants to live there. Not one. Mexicans whom I know are family oriented. Why would they want to live in the land of impersonal helter-skelter and ultra-paranoia?. And, the concept of civil rights is an absurdity when presented as a reason to move to the Northern Jungle. Civil rights are not even conceptualized by many of these desperately poor and poorly educated people.

We are Martians talking to Venusians. God help us all.

sfmacaws

Apr 20, 2006, 6:33 PM

Post #14 of 25 (2540 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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This kind of subjective information is pretty worthless. However, I know several illegal immigrants who have no desire to return to Mexico to live.

I also know several, including my barber and my gardner, who came here illegally but now have papers. The barber, actually it is 2 brothers who own a barber shop here in Cathedral City, the one that cuts my hair goes back to Mexico on vacation every year. He's from a small town in Vera Cruz state near the base of Mt Orizaba. His brother will not go into Mexico and other than once for their mother's funeral has not returned at all. Neither of them want to move there when they retire. The brother that won't return says he was treated badly when he was there for the funeral and that everyone had their hand out for something and he didn't like it.

My gardner (he has a garden maintenance company and services a rented duplex I own here) just got his green card last year and has made several trips to Pto Vallarta. He tells me he recently bought a condo there for vacations. He is from Guanajuato, the city, and although he likes going to Vallarta he has no desire to move back to Mexico.

The reasons they give have nothing to do really with civil rights but more with the orderliness of the US compared to Mexico. Also, of course, people develop lives and friends where they live and work and those become more important than old relationships.

I think you are romanticizing Bubba about those friendly, family oriented Mexicans who only want to return to Mexico and live in their village. Many of them have "seen Paris" and have no desire to return to some rural village without a 5 plex cinema. Others, like my gardner, are never going to fit in again in a world where your every move is discussed daily, they like the anonimity and the freedom that brings.

My guess is that some want to return and some don't but if you recognize that the US has no obligation to open its borders to whomever wants to come in, then you realize that there needs to be a motivation for those that are here to work to return home. I am against another amnesty, it does not work and encourages more people to come across to get in on the next one. I am also against automatic citizenship for a child born of parents who are here illegally. I don't believe in rewarding bad behavior and sneaking across the border of another country against that countries laws is bad behavior. I think there needs to be a guest worker program but to get in it you should have to sign up in your home country and return there after a set amount of time. Mainly I think our legislature and our government need to develop the coj... to enforce the laws we do have and to enforce the ones they say they are going to make. Otherwise it's just a lot more of the same old, same old, blah blah blah.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Texwheel

Apr 20, 2006, 6:52 PM

Post #15 of 25 (2530 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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One does not miss civil rights until one has them, relies on them and then has them taken away. One has to live first, and then live well. Something about the human heirarchy of needs. Even an illegal alien has rights in the US. Not true almost anywhere else in the world. And not in Mexico.

It is blessfully raining tonight in Georgetown, Texas. Has been steadily for several hours. Maybe this is a drought buster...we need it so badly. Thank God!

Tom.
Tom Williams
Georgetown, Texas
Texwheel@aol.com

CCarol

Apr 20, 2006, 7:07 PM

Post #16 of 25 (2525 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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Jonna, as usual, very well said. Even though we're way up in the Northwest, we have our small share of Mexican business owners...what do we think of them? Yummy good food!!! And we have struck up a slight relationship with them....they too have no desire to return to Mexico. They say they like the clean areas, the friendly people AND the money here. Some have been here quite awhile, own a number of restaurants and continue to bring their younger family members to train in the business. We practice our spanish with them as they are struggling to learn english. I'm not saying they are illegals, but they sure could be. But in talking with ALL of them, they do not like it in Mexico but only miss family who remain there. I wouldn't lump them all into this category, I'm just saying that of those we have talked to about returning, which is only a handful.

To keep with the OP, how horrible that countries feel they must resort to shooting "real people" just to protect their country (but that's an OLD solution). Makes me think of the golden rule...why would Mexico do this if they don't want to be treated this way up on the other end??? What a contradiction!!

On the home front...I think the USA hasn't kept the border laws because we are basically a nation who foundationally is a welcoming country. We want to help others, create opportunity, and offer good will to all. But how much can one country handle?? I know that brings up thoughts of our own impurity....political corruption, government overspending, price gouging, etc. (without all that, we might be able to help a lot more). But wherever MAN is found, you will find these things (been around since Adam and Eve got kicked out of their own little paradise). Overall, we do have a wonderful nation where most can find a way to succeed if they will try. Much more positive we can say about the good ole USA than can be said about many countries. Small wonder why so many want to be here. At least we're civilized enough to work on a solution. Hopefully we'll find a good one and ENFORCE it!
Carol

"Be kind, for everyone you know is facing a great battle." (Philo of Alexandria)

waltw

Apr 20, 2006, 9:47 PM

Post #17 of 25 (2490 views)

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Re: [CCarol] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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I think the USA hasn't kept the border laws because we are basically a nation who foundationally is a welcoming country. We want to help others, create opportunity, and offer good will to all.
_______________________________________________________________________________
We also like cheap labor and a submissive workforce that won't complain.

"Bad behavior"? Let's see, I'm a Mexican living in poverty in a small pueblo. I have a wife and a few kids. I make $65 a week and there is no hope of me ever improving the economic condition of my family, educating my children, or receiving adequate health care. Should I continue in my pitiful, impoverished state and be "well behaved?" or should I "behave badly," go to the US so that my family has a chance for a better life, my kids can get an education, and where American employers welcome me with open arms? Hmmm, tough moral decision.

Let's get real. People are going to get into the US and try and find work, no matter how many walls are constructed and border patrol guards get hired. Until there's a way for them to come in and work legally, there will always be rampant, illegal immigration.

PeggyS

Apr 21, 2006, 12:39 AM

Post #18 of 25 (2477 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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Use <IMDb> (Internet Movie Database) for instant information on any movie or person in a movie. In the righthand corner is usually where you can order/buy it.
But be aware that any video/DVD ordered sent to your P.O. address may or may not get to you. As far as I know, the guys in our Ajijic P.O. are quite honest and I've received everything I've ever ordered. but I have friends in other towns who have never received a video that they have ordered, bought or borrowed.
Thanks, Jonna, for your always-welcome comments.

ignacio

Apr 21, 2006, 10:18 AM

Post #19 of 25 (2420 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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Jonna said:

" This kind of subjective information is pretty worthless. However, I know several illegal immigrants who have no desire to return to Mexico to live."

Hum, let us see.... I know that all the parties, who signed the US declaration of independence, all were ILLEGAL immigrants to America, and NONE of them wanted to back to live under king George.....

Exactly like the Mexicans.

CCarol

Apr 21, 2006, 10:45 AM

Post #20 of 25 (2413 views)

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Re: [waltw] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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Quote

I certainly agree because with all the talk about Mexicans being family people, so are most others. We'll do anything to feed and shelter our families...no risk too great when it comes to our relatives. I think you've hit upon the bottom line here that unless we come up with something to help those who are living in hideous poverty, we'll have border problems. As usual, the majority suffer because of a few bad apples. America is getting paranoid with good reason as we've let anything and everything in...now we need to try and fix it while still keeping our "neighborly" attitude. As Bubba said "God help us." A solution will not be easy and who knows where it will end up....anybodys guess! Wouldn't it be nice if we could all just get along? But with the divorce rate, it's proven that even "2" people have a hard time doing that!
Carol

"Be kind, for everyone you know is facing a great battle." (Philo of Alexandria)

sfmacaws

Apr 21, 2006, 11:26 AM

Post #21 of 25 (2400 views)

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Re: [ignacio] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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Ignacio, my post was a response to one from Bubba that said he knew many illegal immigrants and they all wanted to return to Mexico to live. My point was that subjective polling like that is pretty worthless and for everyone that didn't want to return there were others that did. I gave some examples of those who did not want to return.

Going back several centuries to make whatever point it was you were trying to make is specious. Outside of Africa and perhaps Asia, everyone is an immigrant throughout the world. That has nothing to do with current political states and current legalities. Another point would be that if Mexico wants to be allowed free immigration into the US then they should allow the same into Mexico from the south and the north. Fat chance of that happening.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

ignacio

Apr 21, 2006, 5:42 PM

Post #22 of 25 (2349 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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But it has EVERYTHING to do with current legalities... it just does NOT suit our ideas of what legal is, while it is viewed differently by the people affected.

Just like Israel makes a case for having a right the Palestinian land, and we the USA back up that claim, we are not receptive that we took that Mexican land away from these Mexican people that are returning to it.

gbatrucks

Apr 28, 2006, 5:20 AM

Post #23 of 25 (2181 views)

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Re: [waltw] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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What we are not asking is WHY is it this way? Google "wealth distribution" & you find a whole lot of money in the hands a very few in Mexico. In other words the (few) rich get richer, & the peons can drop dead. What can make it more obvious than this: You've got 1 telephone company for the whole country & that company is owned by 1 man who is the 3rd (?) richest man in the world. Carlos Slim must be laughing his head off at all the bleeding-heart liberal Gringos who want to help the poor campasinos.

One of the reasons for the poverty in this country has to do with wealth distribution. Mexico can do more to solve its problems rather than shipping the problem North. However, as money is the mother's milk of politics, don't hold your breath...same reason us Gringos aint never gonna see Medicare down here, or universal health care up there.
"The trouble with life is there's no background music."

(This post was edited by gbatrucks on Apr 28, 2006, 5:22 AM)

gbatrucks

Apr 28, 2006, 5:26 AM

Post #24 of 25 (2178 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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"The fact that the US supports free speech by everyone and Mexico does not simply means that these countries do things differently"...It also might mean they are not really a democracy in the true sence of the word.
"The trouble with life is there's no background music."

bournemouth

Apr 28, 2006, 6:56 AM

Post #25 of 25 (2164 views)

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Re: [gbatrucks] Mexican Migra shoots local as illegal immigrant

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When we consider the amount of money that comes into Mexico in the form of remittances, there is no incentive at all for Mexico to try and resolve any part of the problem of emigration from the country.