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TlxcalaClaudia

Jan 29, 2006, 12:23 PM

Post #51 of 81 (6127 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Yeah, I read some of those want-ads. Does make me cringe.

Even looking at those variables, I still think that a less smoothed over and more upfront approach to interpersonal relationships would be a good thing here

I agree. Just as someone here said they don't want to read sugar-coated PC, I don't want to read offensive words about Mexicans or anyone else. You
eloquently showed that sticking to the facts or sticking to the instance can paint the pic just as well without being offensive (i.e. "all MExicans need hygiene lessons").

Claudine



(This post was edited by TlxcalaClaudia on Jan 29, 2006, 12:24 PM)


DoDi2


Jan 29, 2006, 2:10 PM

Post #52 of 81 (6105 views)

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Re: [TlxcalaClaudia] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Wow... I can really relate to what you all are saying.

I have occasionally 'popped off' in the usual blunt American fashion at a Mexican... but on hindsight I wind up cringing at myself for doing it. I can't think of a time when on reflection I didn't regret it and wished I'd handled the situation with the suave and cool way that so many Mexicans are able to do. Indirectness (and outright avoidance of conflict) seem to come natural to them, whereas for me "words of truth" just leap directly from my hot button and out my mouth without passing through the good old central processing unit first. And this is never more true than when gender politics are involved.

Since the hangover I'm left with after such explosions (for me) leaves me 'cringing' on the recollection... I've reflected quite a bit trying to figure out just what it is about me that causes me to be comparatively brutish at times. When it happens I feel very justified... after all I'm only speaking "The Truth" and isn't that an admirable thing?

Well.... not really. Not if it hurts the other person's feelings or embarasses them. At least that's how I think most Mexicans look at it.

And (if I could) I would love to have the capacity to handle the situation in the more civilized but no less 'withering' Mexican way. After all, vinegared words are sharp weapons but too much sugar in a dish is not pleasant either. Unfortunately my American trained palate doesn't always pick up on the subtle similarity.

So (I ask myself) why do I blurt out these things? I think one reason is that a certain American arrogance cultivated itself in me as a subconcious and automatic attitude. It's not so much that I'm wrong... but that I lack humility.

There's so many things we Americans criticise about others, for instance the sexism in Mexico. Quite right we say... the ads are atrocious examples. But when we are pointing the finger we forget that we aren't exactly pure and spotless or even close. For instance Mexicans haven't ever dropped bombs or inflicted horrific death and destruction around the world and so on.

I need to spend a lot more time looking in the mirror before I direct another lecture at a Mexican. Perhaps one of the secrets to Mexican civility is that they are remarkable in thier capacity for self-criticism and perhaps I can learn something from that.


(This post was edited by DoDi2 on Jan 29, 2006, 2:30 PM)


julian3345

Jan 29, 2006, 2:31 PM

Post #53 of 81 (6096 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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The "Twinkie Defense" actually worked, (and White was acquitted to the great shock and consternation of many San Franciscans,) but so did Dan White's guilty conscience..he committed suicide eventually. Joan


Esteban

Jan 29, 2006, 2:52 PM

Post #54 of 81 (6093 views)

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Re: [julian3345] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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The Twinkie defense was in fact a myth. One of the great urban myths. The defense's case was mostly based on Dan being very depressed. Yes, sugar was brought up as a possibility that could have contributed to his going "postal" but the actual meals he consumed were chocolate Hohos with Coca Cola backs.


Bubba

Jan 29, 2006, 3:01 PM

Post #55 of 81 (6088 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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You guys don't understand Jonna.

She got so tired of stepping in human excrement around the San Francisco civic center and screwing up her new deputy sheriff carefully polished San Francisco County issued deputy sheriff boots that she has a crazed attitude toward the hangers on that used to call her ugly names but it's more than that. She and I know that San Francisco City and County are one and the same so she could not necessarily kick ass just because some nitwit harassed her unless that particular nitwit violated some county ordinance..

So, San Francisco bought these public toilets the French invented that were supposedly impervious to all sorts of disgusting human activities and within two months the denizens of San Francisco were using them as whorehouses, glory holes and crack emporiums. I see this as the spirit of America. Jonna sees it as perversion. On the other hand, the people I had to deal with as a banker were not shitting in the street but shitting upon their banker. It's all according to what you had to live through to make a living.

Now, Jonna keeps moving about looking for a place where humans are decent and I sit here in my secluded garden blathering to myself and neither of us is bound to find the answer as to why humans procreate.


jacpowell

Jan 29, 2006, 3:13 PM

Post #56 of 81 (6081 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Geez, Jonna - an ex-cop! I think you should keep a badge and uniform at hand -- maybe under your street clothes -- so when a dork like that guy acts out you can pull a Superwoman and give him a real surprise. I suppose you folks here have heard about the recent drug bust at the border (Nogales?) where the bad guys were dressed like Mexican army? The newspapers say it is very easy to buy fake badges and uniforms in Mexico. Why not take advantage of it?


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Jan 29, 2006, 3:43 PM

Post #57 of 81 (6071 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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There is a time for Political Correctness or not. Sounds to me like this was not the time.
Getting older and still not down here.


TlxcalaClaudia

Jan 29, 2006, 3:48 PM

Post #58 of 81 (6065 views)

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Re: [DoDi2] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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DoDi2

Interesting reflection there. I share in it too. Humility is NOT my best trait, though I work on it. Yes, I learn alot from my Mexican family too.

Claudine


jrice

Jan 29, 2006, 7:12 PM

Post #59 of 81 (6036 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Agreed. Mexicans are often deeply frustrated with things in their own country, just as we are with politicans of one stripe or another up north.

On Wal-Mart, tho ... The enormous, overwhelming majority of Wal-Mart's stores in Mexico were bought from Mexican chains that had themselves built up that market (Aurrera, Superama, De Todo, etc.). I don't see much difference before and after as a consumer. I used to think problems scanning and pricing items were local problems. Wal-Mart hasn't improved things much in the stores I shop at. And the federal government survey of supermarket prices -- at least the last time I scanned over it (which was some time back) -- indicated that consumers were as likely to pay one of the highest market prices as the lowest at one of the Wal-Mart stores. What Wal-Mart has done is use market share, bought with U.S. earnings and based partly on U.S. interest rates, to drive down supplier prices.



And I haven't noticed service getting much better since. , not constructed the Wal_Mart way


jrice

Jan 29, 2006, 7:24 PM

Post #60 of 81 (6032 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Yup. It's darned hard to make rules and what will or won't work.

A person has to be flexible. But I think a lot of people are more flexible than even they've ever conceived that they could be. And I've known of people who spent their youths dreaming of living abroad who got off an airplane in Britain and had an existential panic over the fact people were driving on the wrong side of the road.

And we tend to generalize about countries, too. Just as there are, to re-coin a cliche, "many Mexicos," so there are many Americas. And there are lots of ways that those different pieces can fit together.


530rose

Jan 29, 2006, 9:15 PM

Post #61 of 81 (6004 views)

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Re: [julian3345] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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I am a newbie, and am about to embark on a Mexican adventure to see if it is a place I would like to be. The rain and cold in Washington this winter have made me yearn for a friendly climate as the old arthritis is KILLING ME! But this post has me a little freaked.

OK, what is the deal with organic food? Can you get things like free range chicken and eggs from free range chickens that are not full of hormones and antibiotics? Can you get soy milk and cheese? I understand that pesticides are not well regulated in Mexico, and for the most part I guess I can wash them off. Are there ANY vegetarian restaurants in the GDL area? I read something recently about alot of some kind of fish or birds or whales or something dying in the Gulf of California due to pesticide runoff?? Is this true? Are the fish and shellfish from there ok to eat?

Guess I better not sell the house in Washington right away...
Fran


julian3345

Jan 29, 2006, 10:37 PM

Post #62 of 81 (5992 views)

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Re: [530rose] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Soy milk is available...in flavors and slightly sweetened. Here in Jerez, we tend to believe that fruit and vegetables grown locally don't have much pesticide residue because small growers may not choose to spend the money on killing bugs...but this may be wishful thinking. There is a lot of delicious food here, but I'm not aware of any USDA type "organic" or "biologico" certification. People who live and eat in GDL will be more helpful. Joan


530rose

Jan 30, 2006, 3:59 AM

Post #63 of 81 (5979 views)

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Re: [julian3345] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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I am far from a "purist," for years I ate anything that didn't eat me first. However, for a while now I have had issues about the way we treat our livestock and poultry. I was hoping - maybe naively - that I could get range fed beef and free range chickens and eggs. Do you see American "Agribusiness" practices in Mexico much? I lived on a dairy for a bit and those practices just put me off in so many ways.

When I was in Mexico last, which was 20 years ago, I ate from the vendors, didn't ask my waiter where the ice came from, not too uptight. Didn't get sick, except after one long evening at Senor Frogs, and I don't think that was food poisoning. But my digestive system at 53 is not what it was at 33! I am glad I can get soy milk, and hope for free range eggs and chicken. I can live with pesticides, gotta die from something, but I don't see any point in torturing animals in the process.

NO I AM NOT PETA!!!

But I gotta admit, I trend in that direction, and if I am having one of my "don't hurt the animals" spells, I want to know I won't starve (not likely <G>).

Thanks for your kind reply.

Fran


Gringal

Jan 30, 2006, 8:20 AM

Post #64 of 81 (5946 views)

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tonyburton / Moderator


Jan 30, 2006, 8:38 AM

Post #65 of 81 (5934 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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While this thread is wandering in an interesting kind of a way, it is becoming somewhat long, and beginning to bug some people. I'm leaving it unlocked because I'd like to have the world's longest intelligent thread on this Forum. Please note the word "intelligent" in the previous sentence. Any attempts to prolong this thread through overly creative replies will result in the replies being deleted and the thread locked!


Gringal

Jan 30, 2006, 8:50 AM

Post #66 of 81 (5926 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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In case anyone is wondering - Tony didn't delete me. I pulled the plug because I have to agree that this thread is getting a long beard.

My comments to "rose" were, essentially, that there are many compromises in moving to Mexico, one of them being that the availability of her preferred foods is limited; that there is little guarantee that "organic" foods are as labeled and the best plan for her is, as usual, spending time here prior to commitment.


sfmacaws


Jan 30, 2006, 9:09 AM

Post #67 of 81 (5920 views)

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Re: [530rose] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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My main comment to Rose, made quite honestly and without snide implications, is that she has just described an attribute of people who do NOT do well in Mexico. It's sad but the cruelty to animals exhibited by US agribusiness pales in comparison to the routine cruelty to animals done by agribusiness and just plain old folks here in Mexico. Anyone who is sensitive about this and who can make big decisions, such as what to eat, based on animal cruelty will be miserable in Mexico.

Yes, you can find something to eat including all the usual organic, pesticide free stuff you find in the US - at least it is labeled as such although there is even less checking on the accuracy of lables here than in the US - but all that is mostly in big cities. What you will daily face are animals in various stages of injury, pain and starvation as a result of mistreatment. Can you watch the starving dog root through your garbage every morning, covered in mange and with open sores? Can you smile at your neighbors when it goes "home" to them and the kids play throw the rocks at the dog while Dad smiles approvingly? If not, you will not do well in Mexico.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Gary Anderson

Jan 30, 2006, 11:18 AM

Post #68 of 81 (5888 views)

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Re: [530rose] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Fran -

About 10 miles east of Ajijic, near Jocotopec, there is an ACA farm operated by two Canadian women that grows organic veggies and organically raised turkeys, among other things, and sells the products in the local higher-end food markets. It is the only such enterprise in these parts that I'm aware of. Don't know abour free-range chickens - do the ones running around in peoples' yards count?

GA
____________________________________________________________
"There was only one catch and that was Catch-22 . . . ." - Joseph Heller


tonyburton / Moderator


Jan 30, 2006, 11:40 AM

Post #69 of 81 (5879 views)

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Re: [Gary Anderson] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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ACA website: http://www.mexconnect.com/aca/aca.html


wendy devlin

Jan 30, 2006, 11:45 AM

Post #70 of 81 (5876 views)

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Re: [530rose] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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To add to what posters above have mentioned re availability and quality of organic food.

There are organic growers in Mexico, ACA at Laguna Chapala comes to mind.

You will likely to have to search for them, as they are generally few and far between. Unless you meet the growers and see for yourself how food is grown and marketed there is NO guarantee that anything labelled organic will meet any kind of third party certification or accredition. (I sell organic vegetables, fruits, seeds, eggs etc. in Canada...familiar with some of the in's and outs of the business:)

There are also permaculture 'communities' and individual families that raise and market organic fruit like papayas and mangos. There's also organic coffee. Let Señor GOOGLE is your amigo:)

As for restaurants and farmers' markets selling organic food, they also exist.

Oaxaca City for example has a small organic market with Mexican growers dedicated to supplying it.

I've eaten at a small organic vegetarian restaurant in Guadalajara with a daily smorgasbord which tasted fine and with reasonable prices. It was my friend's mother's favorite restaurant in the city. La señora was dedicated to providing the freshest and her opinion, healthiest food for her family of four.

In the mid-90's la señora even convinced her señor to grow organic vegetables in El Bajio.(They were both originally from farming families) The señor nearly lost his financial shirt and within two years, returned to his regular job, buying and selling cattle all over central Mexico.

BTW Said señor once took me to the ranch of Vincente Fernandez when we were at one of Fernandez's big retail stores of western wear and riding gear etc. Unfortunately the singer, was not en casa. Sigh.


(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Jan 30, 2006, 11:46 AM)


530rose

Jan 30, 2006, 12:40 PM

Post #71 of 81 (5849 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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That ACA website was very helpful, Thanks. It looks like I won't starve after all. And so glad to hear about the availability of soy and a reasonable vegie restaurant in GDL.

Animal cruelty. I remember the stray dogs (although I may have only thought they were strays) from when I was there 20 years ago. I had - again naively - hoped that problem had been resolved. I live in an area of Washington that is well over 50% Mexican immigrants (legal and illegal), Mexican Americans, and itinerant farmworkers. I have seen both very responsible pet owners and very bad pet owners. I admit to having liberated some pets (including my dog Ginger, love the blahblahblah Ginger cartoon by the way) from mistreatment, and catnapped some "strays" and taken them to the vet for spaying after many litters of feral cats were found in the bushes around my house. I keep them in a few days and let them out again. Their "owners" probably never knew they were gone. I have thought about that as a possible source of distress for me, the pet pampering queen of Pasco.

Believe me, I have taken many of your comments to heart and have, since the inception of this adventure, planned a 6 month tour (for which there are safety nets in place if it becomes a 3 hour tour) before I even settle on an area.

I appreciate all the advise and information I find on this board, I have been lurking for some time now and this is my first topic to "go public."

Thanks!
Fran


sfmacaws


Jan 30, 2006, 4:45 PM

Post #72 of 81 (5801 views)

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Re: [530rose] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Fran,

I wrote the above and then had to go run some errands. While driving I thought about it and thought I might have been too hard. It's all true but the choices are not between being OK with the state of animals here and not being able to live here. There are ways to live with it although you don't like it. There are a lot of organizations that are having a great effect on the lives of individual animals and there are changes in the culture and education and outlook of a growing percentage of Mexicans that also does not agree with random cruelty to animals. It is improving, particularly in the urban and tourist areas. I donate to an organization of Mexican vets and US and CA helpers that has made a huge difference here in the Yucatan. This group came from a Colorado based group that brought US vets and assistants here to run clinics in poorer areas of the state. They were smart enough to enlist the involvement of local vets and now the majority of the vets are local with the supplies, assistants and money coming from mainly foreign donations. It's had a visible effect on the number and condition of street dogs and house dogs here.

Mimi and I just found a home for a very smart little dog that we rescued in Palenque a few weeks ago. We had her spayed, vaccinated and checked for heartworm and other diseases. She is healthy and is now living downstairs from us and will be going to her new home in Ontario Canada in a few weeks.

It is always difficult for us as animal lovers to see some of the animals here. Almost always when we are camped somewhere, a street dog will start sleeping under our rig or lurking on the edge of our camp. We have 2 dogs of our own, rescued 3 years ago here in the Yucatan. We don't want our dogs to catch what the street dogs have and so it is difficult. We usually feed them if they are starving but we feel pretty helpless about most of them, they are hard to drive away from.

We made a plan recently that I think we can live with and that won't break the bank or have us end up with an RV full of dogs. We were thinking about the concept of Thinking Globally and Acting Locally and came up with the plan. We will look for a vet as soon as we arrive at someplace we intend to stay for a week or more. We'll take one of the neediest dogs to the vet right away, pay for neutering, shots, treatments. We'll feed it while we are there and then we will leave it. Not exactly as we found it but hopefully with a better start on handling its life. It's not much but it will make us feel less helpless and have a small effect, at least for that dog and the generations that would have followed it.

Our other defense is to never comment on the dead and dying animals we see on the road or the really pitiful ones we see in towns as we drive through. We just don't talk about it, clearly we both see them but we feel that talking about it only makes it worse for us. We may glance at each other but we go on to other topics. You can't change it and dwelling on it does not help.

If you can find a way to let what you can't change flow on by you and do something about the small things you can change then you can be happy here in Mexico.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




DoDi2


Jan 30, 2006, 6:21 PM

Post #73 of 81 (5776 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Very good points.

I have a couple of stories to tell, one about gender and one about dogs. They both had a lesson for me which I find is important to remember in order to 'do well in Mexico'.

The first is about a couple of dogs. I was staying with friends in Oaxaca and in thier yard were two dogs tied up on relatively short ropes, one on one side of the patio and the other across on the other side. Next to each dog was a water bowl and periodically they were fed leftover tortillas.

I was told that a couple of the younger boys in the family had found them wandering about and brought them home, which is the way most people there aquire thier dogs. This family already had two others older dogs that ran loose.

I was there for a long visit and every day and night these two dogs remained tied up in the patio, often barking and whining and periodically having to be untangled from thier ropes. It really was getting to me, and I was pretty shocked at the cruelty.

Also in the yard were chickens and turkeys which ran around free during the day, goats that were tied at night but spend thier days out in the pasture, and a couple of REALLY HUGE TOROS in a corner (right next to my hammock btw).. who seemed quite content chewing away on thier sacate and alfalfa when they weren't out in the field working.

It was all fine except for those poor little dogs tied up day in and day out.

Then one day I asked about them.. trying to put it in a nice way, but trying to find out why they weren't ever let loose to run around like the other dogs.

I found out that shortly after these two dogs were brought home by the kids they started to kill chickens. I can tell you that, in those parts, a dog that kills a chicken has committed a dog felony and it is going to be a dead dog very soon. So my friends had two choices... either destroy the dogs or tie them up for a while until they grew out of the poultricide habit. (Suddenly I remembered that tying the misbehaving dog up is exactly what the farmer did it in 'Babe' to her border collie friend... this is just what my animal-savvy friends were doing and they know from experiance that it almost always works.)

So... I had been 100% wrong to interpet what I was seeing as cruelty. In fact it was the 180 degree opposite... they had taken in two homeless dogs and now were they were saving them from having to be put down.

The other story is about gender politics.... one day I was walking home from the mercado with a friend. I noticed across the way there was a meeting going on under some trees where a lot of men were standing around talking, so I asked her what was happening.

She told me that, since it was the first of January, they were choosing next years auxilery policemen. The town was organized under rules of 'usos y custumbres' which is common to find around the municipalities of Oaxaca. Each town has it's own little twists on how it works depending on local customs and in this town it was traditional for recently married men to serve a year as the security force for the town.

This works very well, the federales seldom ever come unless there is a drug raid or some serious crime committed, and even then it's the local volunteers who go get the suspect and call the federales to come pick him up.

Also there's no problem with police corruption and, since the auxilery are all locals who know everyone and whom everyone knows.. and are probably related to in some way, even the most rowdy drunks are treated with tender care and respect, and will only have to spend the night in the local bote when it seems the wise thing to do for thier own good.

Another good aspect of this organization of auxilary police is the system of hefes and tenientes. Every two young newlyweds are supervised by a hefe who is an older local citizen also chosen at the new years day meeting. And supervising two hefes is a teniente, again named at the meeting, and the teniente gets two hefes and two newlyweds in his crew.

My reaction on seeing the meeting was to wonder out loud to my friend 'why aren't there any women over there at that meeting? don't the women get to vote?' etc.

My friend was surprised at my question and said she never really thought about it... and I pushed a little more to get her to give me a reason, and she said to me 'if a woman went to that meeting the men would think she was lazy and say she must not have anything better to do'. Well, that shut me up.

So after that I went on for a long time thinking of the political system in the town as very sexist indeed... until just a few days ago when I found out that my friend's husband was named hefe this year. This opened the topic again, but this time I found out more about how the system really works.

In the meeting the auxiliaries, hefes, and tenients from the previous year all get together and each one names someone who will take thier place for the following year. So it's not an election, its a tradition of passing on the torch. Except that those recieving the torch often look on it as more of a sacrifice than an honor. Sometimes, although rarely... since it's considered a duty to accept, they refuse by taking down the large and rather elaborate decoration of cariso, flowers, and balloons found the next morning on thier front door which was hung there by thier predecesser as the way of delivering the happy news of thier appointment.

The only real discussion of importance at the annual meeting that may influence the choice of replacement is where the new one lives. It's kind of a joke intended to razz the next year's teniente teams to make sure the group is made of of men who all live on completely opposite sides of town. This is because of weddings which go on normally for an entire week.. so other than walking thier beat at night, the main duty for auxilleries is to stand out in front of houses where weddings are going on to provide security. It's customary for the father of the groom to bring out a bottle of mescal, a case of beer, and some packs of cigarettes to the security guys, and it's the duty of the an auxillery to walk his inebriated hefe or teniente home... which is one of the reasons each hefe and each teniente has two newlyweds apiece. Among thier duties they also function as the team's designated drivers.

So of course the most animated discussion at the annual meeting is how to work it so that they chose new guys who live really far from each other. This way the new guys will be walking as far as possible in a very undignified condition trying to get thier boss and themselves back home.

Yep. Rather than what I originally thought, the this has nothing at all to do with sexism. And my friend was completely right.. women have better things to do ;-)

So.... in conclusion.... the lesson I learned from both these examples is not to jump to hasty conclusions while in a foriegn land. Check all the facts. I may find that real deal may be better than I thought (or it might be worse).


(This post was edited by DoDi2 on Jan 30, 2006, 6:42 PM)


ignacio

Jan 30, 2006, 6:52 PM

Post #74 of 81 (5756 views)

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Re: [DoDi2] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Speaking of Toros, just saw on the news what happened in Mex. DF, where a toro appropriately named "Pajarito", which upon entering the plaza jumped directly into the stand where the big wheel toro owners and locutores were and proceeded to run through the people, injuring 11... no deaths.

Well I say "hoorray" for the toro !!!

......I'm tired of seeing how they make these poor animals suffer, in a totally uneven fight and the spectacle of their slaughter.


DoDi2


Jan 30, 2006, 6:59 PM

Post #75 of 81 (5754 views)

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Re: [ignacio] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Bullfights don't bother me I guess because those bulls have a charmed life and not nearly so horrific death (plus the meat is given away to the poor) when compared to the life of beef industry cattle, although I'm not sure if I'd applaud if one jumped out of the hamburger section and trampled customers in my supermarket.


(This post was edited by DoDi2 on Jan 30, 2006, 7:00 PM)
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