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Anonimo

Jan 25, 2006, 2:43 AM

Post #26 of 81 (5588 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Quote
PS: My post about the punching bag was meant for Anonimo. I hit the wrong reply link. Sorry 'bout that, but recover fast before more snow falls.

That's ok, Ron; I have my raw bread dough I can pound and manipulate.
Also, my wife is a good listener to my rants.



Saludos,
Anonimo


Anonimo

Jan 25, 2006, 2:52 AM

Post #27 of 81 (5586 views)

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Re: [shoe] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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With all respect, Shoe, the NOB attitude is that things can be fixed. Here, the attitude is sometimes, "Ni modo", or "*You* have to adapt,", and, an old favorite: "Now, go stand in the second line..ohh the copy is not clear, please leave the line and bring back clear ones. Also two more tiny pictures of yourselves. Sorry, we are closed now, come back in 7 weeks."

Maybe I have to adapt, ok, but I times I grow frustrated and weary of it.

But the odd thing is that I *am* having fun, also.


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Hey you all, When you get up in the morning and look into the mirror, ask yourself one question. Am I having fun? If the answer is "NO", then you are looking at the problem. FIX IT. Do not blame others.




Saludos,
Anonimo


caldwelld


Jan 25, 2006, 7:15 AM

Post #28 of 81 (5571 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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You bet Bubba, ditto for cities across Canada except you can add an additional 25% to the tax burden, and "business and government efficiency" is an oxymoron in either language.
dondon


1ajijic


Jan 25, 2006, 8:11 AM

Post #29 of 81 (5543 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Can I have an AMEN and a God Bless for our man Shoe?
http://www.newbeginningsmexico.com


juan david


Jan 25, 2006, 2:59 PM

Post #30 of 81 (5486 views)

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Re: [macmember] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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On houses, the lack of mortgage money can slow the market dramatically and if a house is overpriced the effect is compounded. Right now a properly priced house will sell in weeks because there is demand in the popular gringo areas.
Quite a few of the gringos who return north have lived in Mexico for many years and decided to 'GO HOME" to be near the grand kids and family. Some go for health reasons to be near a VA hospital where they are covered. Some number just plain don't like living and adjusting to a different cultural scene where many things not the same as they are used to.
If you can check your angst and any superego at the border and just go with the flow it's pretty easy to become acclimatized to what (with a few exceptions) is a very good life here. A wired up retired person has missed the whole point of retirement regardless of where they live!
" let sleeping dogs lie"


caldwelld


Jan 25, 2006, 3:10 PM

Post #31 of 81 (5479 views)

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Re: [1ajijic] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Absolutely!
dondon


1ajijic


Jan 25, 2006, 9:10 PM

Post #32 of 81 (5407 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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I've noticed that if you follow mexican customs and manners - smile , say hello, ask how the person is, how the family is, what a nice....you get the world's best treatment from everyone. Which basically means you get whatever you want. It works with everyone, i.e. waiters to Federales. Now the secret is out.

If you radiate frustration... well there was an old saying about a ram and a dam.
http://www.newbeginningsmexico.com


Anonimo

Jan 26, 2006, 2:24 AM

Post #33 of 81 (5387 views)

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Re: [1ajijic] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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I've noticed that if you follow mexican customs and manners - smile , say hello, ask how the person is, how the family is, what a nice....you get the world's best treatment from everyone. Which basically means you get whatever you want. It works with everyone, i.e. waiters to Federales. Now the secret is out.

If you radiate frustration... well there was an old saying about a ram and a dam.

I agree, an excellent policy, except the part about "you get whatever you want". You don't, and you shouldn't expect to. You just have grin and bear it sometimes.



Saludos,
Anonimo


esperanza

Jan 26, 2006, 7:52 AM

Post #34 of 81 (5359 views)

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Re: [Anonimo] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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What 1ajijic says is so true.

In the USA, there used to be a popular motherly saying, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." Even that phrase doesn't translate to "You catch ALL of the flies." Somehow, the NOB style of doing things NOB has devolved too often into banging a fist on a counter, shouting into a telephone, or sending a squawking email demanding what is 'due'. It's a terminal case of entitle-itis.

Try all that in Mexico and you're talking to the hand.

Furthermore, nobody is ever going to get everything he or she wants. That's life, no matter where we live. Sometimes we get exactly what we want, sometimes we get something else.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Georgia


Jan 26, 2006, 8:57 AM

Post #35 of 81 (5340 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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All patience notwithstanding, my Mexican business friends express their own frustration at how business and/or functionary duties are often performed - or not - in Mexico. There is a resistence to change - even in business - that is self-defeating. Consider the WalMart model: Mexican retailers could adopt that model and compete instead of letting a foreign firm steam roller them. Some try, but most do not seem to want to change. For me, as a retired person with time, these inefficiencies are quaint and tolerable. But for young Mexican business persons (oh, hell, businessmen, let's be honest here) the inefficiencies are neither quaint nor tolerable. They are frustrated with it.

Where does this clinging to inefficiency and reluctance to change come from? What drives it? Why does it persist?

I ask out of curiosity ... personally, it's tolerable, although I see that for the younger generation it is a limiting factor.


Gringal

Jan 26, 2006, 9:36 AM

Post #36 of 81 (5329 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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I agree with the points you made about resistance to change, but cringe at the notion of using Wal-Mart as a business model. Wal-Mart follows the Genghis Khan model of territorial acquisition and rolls over everbody, everywhere. It doesn't matter if the smaller businesses are well-run or not. I'm trying to think of a kinder, gentler model of success in terms of employee treatment - maybe Home Depot, but on the other hand, they also tend to drive out the local businesses. I'm afraid that the competition among the giants is eventually going to look like a Japanese horror flick.


Georgia


Jan 26, 2006, 10:00 AM

Post #37 of 81 (5318 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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I should have been more specific about the WalMart business model: I was thinking of their distribution system which is at the heart of their success.


sfmacaws


Jan 26, 2006, 10:23 AM

Post #38 of 81 (5309 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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If you want a kinder and gentler model, try CostCo.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




sfmacaws


Jan 26, 2006, 10:44 AM

Post #39 of 81 (5294 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."


I think that saying was mostly popular in the south and I don't think it was advice often given to men, just women.

No, you can't always get what you want (to quote the Rolling Stones) and I agree that entitlement has gone way too far in the US. Still, it has had its place in some areas particulary in changing long practised inequality in the treatment of women and minorities. Simply standing up and refusing to be treated as a subservient creature has been a very positive improvement in the quality of life for a huge portion of Americans.

The part I find frustrating here in Mexico is similar to how I felt about the rules for the genteel when visiting my mother's family in the South. I agree there is no need to bang fists or shout into the phone but simply to state the problem, your feelings about it and not sugar coat it with a bunch of hypocritical niceties. It's a waste of time and it is too easy for the original problem to just be ignored when delivered in that huge pile of sugar.

Perhaps it is the Californian in me but I do not think that expressing the fact that you are angry in a precise and calm way is a bad thing. I find it refreshing and honest. I will never like the perambulations that are necessary here to express this quite human emotion. I have adjusted and I comply with the local customs 'most' of the time. I don't think it is particularly effective and I think it causes a lot of misunderstandings but hey, it's the way they want it so no problem. I'm also retired which helps.

But every once in awhile, when I hope to never have to see or deal with the person again, it sure feels great to just let it out! Do I think they get it? No, of course not but I don't do it for them, I do it for me. It's a very selfish pleasure to flip off some macho pig once a year.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




juan david


Jan 26, 2006, 11:20 AM

Post #40 of 81 (5279 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Yeah. There is not much kindness that exists in the laws of business. It is more jungle like than anybody wants to own up to. The big players in retail, finance, petroleum etc do well because they are relatively efficient and the consumer likes their value proposition. Only in England has the small bookstore seemed to survive. While the megas do wipe out small businesses, they also create employment. Not sure the equation balances but you can't fight a clear trend. Notice the growth in car wash centers in Lakeside. Hard on the street guys, but new jobs too. Quien sabe?
" let sleeping dogs lie"


zoeq1000


Jan 28, 2006, 8:56 PM

Post #41 of 81 (5160 views)

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Re: [shoe] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Exactly. When my husband gets irritated in traffic, I just say, "What's the hurry?" After 25 years of LA traffic on the way to work, he has to remind himself of where he is. Same way with waiting at the electric company to do something. 2 hours. This is THEIR culture, not ours. To live here peacefully and enjoy life, we have to blend in with their culture.

I saw the other side of the coin when Armenians took over Glendale in LA. All of a sudden there was a 45% Armenian population and growing. They took over our schools (only 3 native English speakers including my daughter remained in 2nd grade), they had their own churches, they had their own friends. And they did not include Americans. They wanted their own culture in our country. It's fine to keep traditions but it is a new day when you move to a new country. I came to resent the Armenians because I thought they used the good including welfare of our country and showed not nary a lick of thanks or courtesy. We were one of about 5 who actually paid for school lunches. In addition, they bring their horrible driving habits of making U-Turns in the middle of the block on 4 main streets. There were exceptions to be sure, those who wanted to learn English and I taught them and were thankful that they cared enough to learn the language. But they were few and I came to look forward to leaving little Armenia. I think if you come to the a different country, be a welcome enrichment to the culture, not a drain, and don't isolate yourselves.

Regarding the parking incident: in my opinion, we are in Mexico and it is their country and their customs. If someone directs you to a parking space, it's probably because they've decided that it is the best way to do business no matter what we think. In fact, when we "know best" it is insulted to the Mexicans who have worked things out their own way.

I got my windows and doors measured for curtains. The first time, the man was on time and measured everything. When I went to the store, however, he had not written down what measurement was for what particular window. So it was confusing. I was told someone would come the next day. They didn't show at the appointed time and I called the store - oh, they had figured it out. I returned to the store to choose fabrics and the clerk realized that there was a discrepancy between my inches and their centimeters when caluculated. They made another appointment to measure the curtains and three men showed up. As much of a pain in the butt as this seems, I still think they were patient and kind with me because, on the other hand, I didn't know exactly what I wanted and they took much time with me. So, I do think it all works out in the end.
I have not seen Mexicans yell at each other and give fingers and such as people do ALL the time in LA. They are polite and courteous and are shocked when we are not and certainly label us "nasty gringos". We are the ones who have to fit in. We are in THEIR country. And I think when we do try to fit in, we are treated with surprise and grace. That's when it is easy to happily enjoy the fruits of Mexico. Oppose them and be unhappy and miserable among people who don't like you. To me, this is a no-brainer.


TlxcalaClaudia

Jan 28, 2006, 10:18 PM

Post #42 of 81 (5144 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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sfmacaws made a good point worth bringing up again. Sometimes we all need a vent. sfmacaws was very honest with what felt wrong in her reaction, but still, those were her feelings no matter how one tries to intellectualize them. As downright disrespectful some here have been, give sfmacaws some credit for not coming across as a superior know-it-all and being kind-n-honest though angry. If only others took this approach when needing to vent, maybe we wouldn't be viewed as superior bigots.
Here some bullet points:

  • sfmacaws has been a friend to most everyone here. Backed many of you up in past posts.
  • sfmacaws just needed to vent?
  • it appears that some who posted a "get over it" message were the very ones to not THAT long ago voice a "Why is that Mexicans_______ ?" type of complaint too.
  • I am realizing it I too may one day need to voice a gripe here because I am witnessing some back and forth feelings going on. Normal I suppose.
One other thing. I disagree with a Mexican sil on cleanliness of the kitchen. Spoke with her, and now everything is being done "my" way. Ironically, I don't feel great about it. So I spoke with hubby and asked if perhaps I was in the wrong to criticize her by suggesting we need to do better at cleaning the kitchen. He thinks no because dishes being left overnight is never a good idea but he did ask me to consider this: How many Americans do I know who might have the same bad habit? I have 5 girlfriends (3 married and with kids and 2 single ones) who came to mind immediately. Of the five, one is Asian-American, one is the daughter of a famous American actor and grew up privileged, another has 5 kids and still leaves dishes out all night the others are similar. Yuck right? Go look at your sink,is it spotless? NOB or SOB, we will find those who will get under our skin. Just don't make it a Mexican vs American thing....make it a "my mama taught me different thing" if you must make it a "them" thing at all.

We aint no better.

Claudine


sfmacaws


Jan 28, 2006, 11:37 PM

Post #43 of 81 (5134 views)

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Re: [zoeq1000] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Zoe,

It wasn't the directing us to a parking space that pissed me off, it was that this p**ck refused to talk to a woman and would only talk to another man even though that man could not understand a thing he said and I not only understood him but answered him in spanish. He was a pig.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Esteban

Jan 29, 2006, 7:51 AM

Post #44 of 81 (5107 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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You are too funny Jonna! Too bad you didn't happen across him at night after a few beers. It reminds me of Angie Asemos in Jr. High. We were all in line for lunch when Kenny butted in front of her. She went ballistic and pounded him. I mean she jumped his case and whacked him good. In those days, in Jr. High knives and razor blades were there but rare. Good thing she didn't have one. He was SURPRISED and never cut in front of her again.


(This post was edited by Esteban on Jan 29, 2006, 7:52 AM)


Gringal

Jan 29, 2006, 9:38 AM

Post #45 of 81 (5078 views)

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Re: [Esteban] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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....all very well if Angie was capable of doing the deed. Another matter if Kenny was the big guy and she was a weak little squirt. Having been the latter, I was never in favor of violent solutions to interpersonal conflicts.

There are many points of view about "letting it out". One of them was well expressed by a fisherman friend who said a person should be careful about making enemies because you never knew when you'd be hanging onto a hatch cover when the other fella's boat came by.


sfmacaws


Jan 29, 2006, 10:08 AM

Post #46 of 81 (5069 views)

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Re: [Esteban] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Heh! I don't kid myself that this idiot even got it much less would change his ways. Looking at his indignent face as we peeled away is just one of those wonderful snapshots I carry in my mind, helps when it happens again (it is not a rare event) and I am on my good behavior. I'll bet Angie still remembers how great if felt to throw your buddy out of line.

In a way you are right Gringal, it is only because I knew I'd never see the jerk again and wouldn't need his lifeboat that I did it. My point, there really is one, is that had I been able to point out to every man that did that what they were doing and that it made me mad, I wouldn't have such glee in going off on the one that coudn't cause me further problems. It's better, healthier, and more honest in my California biased opinion, to express this stuff in a more rational way but to express it instead of having to smile anyway and act like it doesn't matter.

For instance, if every time a Mexican man ignores my response to a question and again addresses the only man present - let's say it is a neighbor or local merchant, someone I do need to deal with again - and I can say calmly that I am the one they have to deal with and they need to respond to me when I am talking to them if we are going to continue, then I wouldn't be so angry at an ignorant parking guy in Chamula. I don't want to couch that in flowery, sugary terms, I want it to come out with an edge and the appropriate amount of anger. I'm not Scarlett and I have no interest in saving their manly ego in my transactions with them. I simply want them to know they have angered me and how they can rectify the situation if they want to.

I'm not saying this response, only speaking to the man, only happens in Mexico. I'm saying that how I deal with it is conscribed here by what I consider excessive cultural niceties. I'm also not saying that I don't follow them, I usually do. Some of you can get high and mighty about this but I am sure that there are times that every one here doesn't act in a completely culturally adjusted manner. I'm trying to be honest and talk about things I find less than wonderful in the culture. In my opinion, a little more honesty and less hypocrisy in day to day dealings would be good and a lot less concern over delicate male sensibilities and a lot more concern about basic equality between men and women would be a big plus.

OK got the flame retardant suit on now - which, by the way, consists of a bathing suit and a sunny deck overhanging the Caribbean. It's pretty easy to get over a lot of BS when you are happy with where you are.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Esteban

Jan 29, 2006, 10:14 AM

Post #47 of 81 (5063 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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I think we all have to remember you are a retired cop. That many years looking for trouble, dealing with the most difficult of people, has got to have an effect on your personality. Good thing you weren't eating Twinkies when you confronted the guy. :-)


Gringal

Jan 29, 2006, 10:25 AM

Post #48 of 81 (5055 views)

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Re: [Esteban] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Esteban, you just made me LOL on that one. How about Twinkies, and packing a gun?


TlxcalaClaudia

Jan 29, 2006, 10:27 AM

Post #49 of 81 (5052 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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sfmacaws-
I'm half-Mex, married to a Mex, have half-mex kids and a Mex mom etc,etc,etc...
So I tend to take anti-Mexican comments on here a little more personal than most here would. Your posts did not come across as anti-Mexican but very honest about something tht happened in Mexico and pissed you off.You didn't associate him as how "ALL Mexicans act" or even go on about how you or others should try to change what takes place in Mexico (as I hear many in this forum ready to claim to do). There is a way to describe in detail what angered you without acting superior (i.e. voicing "how that would NEVAH happen in the USA" type of blah blah blah) and also without having to sugarcoat it. So anyway, I was applauding your comments and suggesting others could take a cue on how to effectively vent without targeting a whole group of people as being "a**backwards" because we have our own share here (even on this board of all highly cultured Norteamericanos). :P

Claudine


sfmacaws


Jan 29, 2006, 10:57 AM

Post #50 of 81 (5044 views)

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Re: [TlxcalaClaudia] Is there a TYPE of person that does not do well in Mexico?

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Thanks Claudine. Yes, this kind of behavior happens everywhere. Ask any fairly knowledgeable woman who tries to buy something specific in a hardware store in the US!

It has sometimes been difficult here on MC to express dissatisfaction with any aspect of Mexico or Mexican culture. I think that is a disservice to the people and the country. It's not our job to come into their country and say how they should live and act but it is also not our job to be apologists and cheerleaders for things that we think are counter productive. That's just more of my "tell it like it is" cultural bias.

For those not from the SF area, the joke involved a rogue ex-cop/ex-fireman/politician named Dan White who claimed eating twinkies caused him to kill SF Mayor George Moscone.

Esteban is right that my outlook on a lot of this is colored by my years in LE (probably also by the fact that I am gay.) I do have a lot of training and experience in controlling anger, it's pretty integral to the job and if you don't get it in my business you end up like Dan White or bounced from the academy. So, I am pretty good at picking and choosing how and when I want to express anger. I also admit I am pretty used to being listened to with at least an outward attitude of respect as I was a Lieutenant - although I think I have been retired long enough now to have recovered from a lot of that <g>

Even looking at those variables, I still think that a less smoothed over and more upfront approach to interpersonal relationships would be a good thing here. I also think that while there have been enormous improvements in some sectors of society, much of the culture could use a more egalitarian approach to women. Just read the Want Ads sometime, makes you cringe.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán


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